You probably haven't, but has anyone ever noticed Shadow Guildmage?
Lavamancer is pretty good, but can compete with Delve-Cards and DRS. SGm may be worth a try for Elves, D&T, and other Delver players. I think I'll stick a couple in the side to experiment with but curious if anyone has opinions.
Currently I'm sleaving up 4 DRS, 2 Tombstalker, and don't think Grims will fit with that. Thinking of trying out my Harsh Mentors too; but not sure if they'd go in YP's place (2/2/2 split right now) or in the side, or what. Thanks for any thoughts
Originally Posted by Nestalim
What do you guys think about Bone Picker in the Therapy/Pyromancer build?
Top 4 137 tournament with Grixis Delver
https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/tale-two-gpts/
Sib
I am not sure if you want to have snapcasters in that deck - as much as i love the card. I guess its awesome if it works out, especially with the plethora one-of´s from the board and the extractions but still... I guess if you want to play snaps and maximize the value they generate its better to play the czech pile, because thats where he really shines. I think in this deck there a lot of scenarios where he just sits in your (starting-)hand doing nothing since you wanted to waste your opponent or dazed him/her as the main goal in many matchups is to "outtempo" the opponents with stifle, waste, daze.. all while clocking the opponent.
Cutting a Ponder make sense if you want to go more midrange since they still find your answers/threats/lands while not making your starting hand clunky as often.
on the yp. I´ve been playing this deck on and off for quite some time now and I was never impressed with this dude. imo he´s a piece of the puzzle though. its a must answer threat for many decks and gives us the strength to attack from different angles since I played a lot of games where they handled the delver OR the angler OR the TNN but Pyro got em since they weren´t able to answer them all. More obvious reasons to keep him in the deck are his strength vs bug and the therapys from the board imo.
I am curios for what you would cut them and would you guys (you who are thinking about cutting them) modify the maindeck in any other way then? like cutting probes or sth like that?
greetz from germany, long time lurker - first time posting :)
Another reason I have gotten off of YP is with Miracles gone, we are expecting DnT and Elves and TES etc to rise, people will be bringing in deluges and golgari charms and the like to deal with lots of little creatures. Just a thought.
Now Playing:
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Disclaimer: The above person does not claim to have knowledge pertaining to the following subject: anything. Thus, said person may not be held liable for any mishaps/explosions that his advice incurs.
You have the exact Problem that i have :D
there are two Options i think. My first idea is 4 DRS 4 Delver 3 Angler 2 Nemesis. With that i will cut Probes and Therapys (maybe you can still play 2 probes) and then play a Canadian Threshold Deck with other Creatures.
Another idea is to play 4 DRS 4 Delver 3 Dark Confidant 2 Nemesis and play Gurmags in the Board. You can bring them in, when you cutting forces. Something like LSV tested long time ago :D
But im not sure if these are just worse Versions of RUG and traditional Grixis
Why not cutting green from the Ben Friedman 4c Delver list and call it a day? Way better manabase than before and everything is there what you need...Stevestamopz posted a similar list one page earlier and I like the direction! Sure we could play 4c czech pile over it but this has a way better combo MU because of Delver, Daze and friends.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize (Spell Pierce if you want)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
SIDEBOARD
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm (Thoughtseize when not in the MD)
2 Pyroblast
2 Blazing Volley
1 Dismember
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Kolaghans Command
1 Vendilion Clique
Delver Count 26
FoW Count 25
I played 4c Delver over a year in a row and trust me Snapcaster Mage is a house in this deck, the sequence of Bolt, Snap, Bolt is very strong. I wouldnt play him in a heavy tempo oriented Stifle list but in more "slower" midrangey versions he's great.
I also dont get those 2/2/2 lists of Angler/TNN /YP at all. I would cut the last two YP's entirely from the deck before playing this configuration, I mean he's at best if we have him in the opener or draw him within the first 2 turns and with just two copies of him in the deck chances are really low to draw him at that point. A 3/1 split is totally reasonable but 2/2 seems weak to me. I see the other side of this arguement as well because with only 2 copies you lower the chances to draw him in the midgame but meeehh...
I'm also not sure if Stifle is better atm than Cabal Therapy...Miracles is gone and Elves & DnT are heavily played...It's also just a "ok" card vs combo, so all common MU's where I like Therapy more tbh.
Currently playingEldrazi
Yeah, i played the Friedmandeck, too. But i wanna play Stifle at the Moment i think. So many greedy Mana-bases.. :D
Yeah, I faced almost all bug decks or death blade variants yesterday, with the therapy build. I'm kind of seeing the light on LewisCBR's list. Our combo matchup is already good, but fair decks, you have to choke their mana, as there is no other way to stop Them, because their card quality will just grind you into the cement. Their top decks are too strong.
Yes that´s true, stifling the mana of those bug-midrange/4C piles is very important.
for the stifle vs therapy: I think its the old dilemma.. do I want to maindeck stifle or rather have therapy? if you check the metagame at the latest mkm-event ( http://itsjulian.com/mkm-frankfurt-a...version-rates/ thx Julian) and break it down to the best 10 performing decks therapy is probably the better choice. I still like stifle though as i want to be as aggressive as possible in this new meta and execute the tempo approach to the deck as good as possible. and even if stifle doesn´t look that exciting it has so many applications. It´s very good in the tempo mirror, good/ok´ish vs midrange and some combodecks like storm (7 fetches, tendrills, empty) and even against show/tell, reanimator since all those decks play at least 8 fetches. If I am going to play discard maindeck I will play the czech pile, since thats a true control deck. Grixis is a tempo oriented deck that is able to play the control role (quite well) and not vice versa. just my opinion
Last edited by Wendiger_Mungo; 05-05-2017 at 04:08 AM.
Hey guys!
What are the cards you like to sb out if you're playing a stock 4 Peezy 4 Probe 3 Stifle list against Death & Taxes?
Thanks a lot!!
"You must believe you are the best, and then make sure you are" Bill Shankly
Something like this...
VS Death & Taxes
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Ancient Grudge
+3 Cabal Therapy
+1 Sudden Demise
+1 Fatal Push
-2 Gurmag Angler
-3 Force of Will (OTD -1 FOW, -2 Daze)
-3 Stifle
-1 Spell Pierce
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash
I see you guys have been discussing sans-Pyromancer builds. This 5-0 MTGO list was posted today.
// 12 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Gurmag Angler
// 4 Sorceries
4 Ponder
// 26 Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
2 Thought Scour
// 18 Lands
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Baleful Strix
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Forked Bolt
SB: 1 Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Tsabo's Web
The reasons I personally think YP makes the deck strong are
- he provides a fast clock against combo when you're not having delver in your openener
- he's the only creature besides DRS which "dodges" Baleful Strix, making it not a "must answer" threat for our deck compared to BUG/UR Delver
- Edict effects are very situational against us with potential YPs. Liliana gains popularity again, but I especially see a huge amount of Diabolic Edicts these days in the sideboards. This is especially important because many decks like BUG or Czech Pile don't have good answers for Gurmag Angler besides edict effects.
- It "forces" the opponent to bring in -1/-1 effects vs us which are quite abysmal against the rest of the deck. Like Diabolic Edict this leaves scenarios where the reactive opposing deck just doesn't draw the right tools at the right time.
That said personally I'm off Grixis Delver for the time being. Don't get me wrong, it's objectively one of the best decks out there, but when I played stifle these past years people didn't expect it while others kept telling me how it's bad with YP and why I thus shouldn't play it. Now though every Grixis list runs stifle and the opponent can safely assume that it's in the list and play around accordingly. It's only decent against 2 of the most played 3 combo decks (I might add though that you can stifle animate dead triggers). straight-up counterspell which sees a lot of play now is pretty good, too when you trade land drops back and forth.
Imo Grixis' strength lies more in a aggro-control role that is able to switch gears like faeries did.
There's a nice old article on CFB on what "aggro-control" actually was/is and why stifle delver isn't really "aggro-control" (https://www.channelfireball.com/home...aggro-control/ , thx to LibraryofPendrellVale for their compilarion on reddit).
It was the right choice to go under Miracles when it was still a deck imo, right now though I think Grixis has the tools of being a deck that is grindier than anything else in the format except for the Czech Pile. The only lock pieces we have to fear are Chalices and Blood Moons which we can play around.
If there's interest in my Grixis list I can post it here, since it doesn't play Delver though I won't do so for now.
Anyways, those are my 2cts about all Grixis things in the current meta...
Edit: I might add that I tried the 4 delver 4 drs 4 angler build alongside 4(!) thought scours quite some time ago when Miracles was still a thing. The main problems imo were:
- You're way more vulnerable to Edict effects and Baleful Strix is a must-answer card
- I ended up waaaay more often than I expected either getting flooded because I drew random cards off the thought scour OR getting stuck with 2 or even 3 anglers in hand. Also the clock was pretty bad against combo most of the time.
Stifle has an insane amount of targets in legacy even with miracles gone.
Now Playing:
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Reanimator
MUD
Disclaimer: The above person does not claim to have knowledge pertaining to the following subject: anything. Thus, said person may not be held liable for any mishaps/explosions that his advice incurs.
@agrippa: I would be interested in your list if you´d like to share :)
To a certain point I agree with your reasoning that a lot people are expecting stifle right now - which isn´t great - but for me its a crucial part of the tempo plan.
Good Players will always play around stifle if possbile/fetch in our upkeep etc. But still. There are scenarios where the opponent is able to get their first land, then we waste their second or third land, so that the opponent is forced to fetch, which you can stifle. Or he has to dig for lands (if he has cantrips or sth. else). Sometimes they have to counter the stifle, other times they make semioptimal or even wrong decisions just because they expect or saw the stifle.
For me stifle puts the opponent always in a position where he has to DO something. And the more decisions the opponent has to make, the more likely it is that he makes a mistake. and as chaosjace said: it has so many applications that its rarely a dead card (since it even pitches to fow :P )
@Wendiger_Mungo: The main reason why I'm off delver right now is that all these stupid 4c control piles have like 8 mainboard removal spells (not counting the snapcasters) though the meta is full of combo. This leads to games dragging out more than in the days of Miracles (where removal spells were often just dead and thus everybody only played 4-6).
I posted the list in the Grixis Control thread:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Thieves/page20
Since it lacks delver I'm inclined to call it "Grixis Tempo" but since this Grixis delver thread is called like that I'm at a loss of words. Grixis Aggro-Control perhaps?
Been noticing that trend too and it's really annoying. People insist on playing clockless piles of removal, baleful strixes and snapcaster mages even though combo just dominated the biggest legacy event since the banning. I guess they're just ok losing to it as long as they can rack up some wins against the fair decks? Or perhaps they're banking on the fact that the majority of magic players just doesn't like playing combo and won't switch to it even when the meta is super favorable. Either way, Chezh pile style decks should have died with Miracles...
Why would they die out? You're going to lose games to wasteland/blood moon sometimes but between Brainstorm/Ponder/DRS and the best cards in the 4 colors you choose, you can go 4c at basically no cost.
I think the problem Luca Grease has is not that these decks are playing 4 colors but the fact that they're running a buttload of cards mainboard that are bad against combo and have almost no cards to bring in against those decks.
You could play 4c and be better against combo by playing more discard etc., rely more on Leovold to lock out the game fast vs. storm and griselbrand, it's not so much about the colors but about the sort of cards they run that make for man 35-65 matchups where with another deck building they could play a pile that's 50-50 against most.
Just take the most recent "4c-control" list on mtgtop8 I could find as an example:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15412&d=293810&f=LE
This deck already runs 6 creatures (!) that you ideally want to board out vs. combo, not to speak of the 4 other cards that do nothing against combo g1, the 2 Kolaghan's Commands that are slow as hell and the bolt. Oh yeah, and as icing on the cake there's 3 planeswalkers, have fun getting those online when you rely heavily on keeping open countermagic vs. combo.
That's a total of up to 16 cards that I woud consider bad against combo. But what is in the sideboard? 4 more removal spells, a Loam in case things are not durdly enough and an additional Leovold because what this deck desperately needs seems to be card advantage. But hey look, there's a total of 8 cards against Storm and Show&Tell in the sideboard!
Am I tilted about this? Of course I am! I want to play matches as many matches as possible where every side has a decent chance of winning in a bo3 and that aren't determined by who plays which deck.
And before anyone goes "But what about Elves, Stompy or Lands? Those have very favorable/unfavorable matchups, don't they?".
Well, yes, they do. But first of all it's not in their colors to really be any better against the decks they're bad against (in short they just don't play FoW), second of all they dedicate pretty much their entire sideboard slots to fighting these decks, just look at Elves playing like 10 cards against combo, 4 decays and 1 attrition card or Lands playing 4 Grips and as much spheres as possible, leaving room for like 2-3 tireless trackers while Eldrazi and other stompy decks do a similar thing.
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