So, I've always liked the Punishing Fire decks and thought Thing in the Ice is pretty cool, and with Miracles gone I feel it gets slightly better. I'm still trying to figure this one out.
The goal with the creature base is to get the max value out of the Awoken Horror trigger, as well as using its trigger to clear the opponents board. Snapcaster Mage lets us flashback Instants/Sorceries, and Baleful Strix gives us card draw, not only that, but it's deathtouch is pretty nice against decks with big beat sticks. Leovold, Emissary of Trest is there to try in the helping of slowing down opponents, since Thing in the Ice can be slow, and not guaranteed in our opening hand. Maybe Leovold, Emissary of Trest would be better in the side and have a 1 of Bedlam Reveler in the main since Leovold, Emissary of Trest might not do anything in some match ups.
11 Creatures
3 Thing in the Ice
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Baleful Strix
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Artifacts/Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library
1 Engineered Explosive
26 Instants/Sorceries
4 Punishing Fire
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
3 Thoughtseize
19 Lands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
15 Side Board
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
1 Fatal Push
Our early game goal is to disrupt our opponent. We'd like to be able to set them back and land an early Thing in the Ice, once Thing in the Ice is down, hand sculpting with cantrips and controlling the board with Punishing Fire and counters until our Thing in the Ice flips. Once it flips, it's a pretty quick clock, and it tends to be bigger than everything else on board. Back up plan is Jace, the Mind Sculptor ultimate, and back up back up plan is Punishing Fire slow death, I guess with beats by Snapcaster Mage.
The mana base can probably be reworked a bit (I just grabbed lands from my Grixis Delver deck and threw in some Grove of the Burnwillows. We may also want to cut some things to up our land count a bit. I was also thinking about trying Mox Diamond or other mana accelerators (Deathrite Shaman I don't feel pairs well with Awoken Horror's trigger), but then I feel we have to squeeze in Life from the Loam, which may get a little tricky since we'd have to cut more cards probably, as well as up our land count to have things to pitch to the Mox Diamond. I think it might be right to shave some spells to up the land count or run Deathrite Shaman anyways. Running both Punishing Fire and Lightning Bolt might be over redundant anyways...
I didn't include Daze because I don't feel we can afford to be set back a land in this deck except after we've landed our first threat (which is turn 2), which also means Daze probably won't counter the removal coming after it. I also thought Gitaxian Probe might be nice to have a free spell to remove a counter, but it doesn't really do too much to disrupt our opponent, so that's where I think Thoughtseize is a good card for this, it provides intel on what your opponent is playing, and gives us some disruption without setting us back.
Please feel free to make suggestions or provide feedback! I'm horrible when it comes to brewing.
I like it! I would opt for more pushes instead of bolt as Pfire already deals with smaller threats and planeswalkers. They complement each other great.
If if was possible to play a playset of shamans that would be great. Not playing shamans is probably a mistake these days.
I realized that as I got home (Push is better than bolt for this list) and I actually switched them as I got home.Originally Posted by JackaBo
I agree with the deathrite statement, I'll try without it for a bit though, and then switch to it. I think it'll give a stronger early game, just the awoken horror trigger puts me off on playing it right now. I'm hoping the fatal pushes and thoughtseize can make up for not running him for now.
You should play Dack Fayden over Jace in this list.
Your list would fit nicely into the main TITI thread.
There's a lot of color combos, but the most successful archetypes are driven by Probe/Cabal (BUG TITI) or Grove/Pfire/Dack (URg TITI). It's hard to say what the right number of value bouncers (SCM/Strix) is per TITI in a USea build, probably wouldn't go below 6. The real question in the USea approach is why aren't you playing DRS, especially if you're putting in 3x USea to fuel a total of 8 cards maindeck. Probably is just suboptimal not to run DRS, but sidestepping that whole issue, 2x USea and 1x Badlands is a healthier approach.
Either more established version of TITI is pretty weak to yard hate, especially the URg versions (undermines Dack/PFire value engine). Given that, I understand the sentiment behind choosing JTMS as a less hate-able indiscriminate value card, but I think it's probably too slow. Most of the rest of the deck is composed of the usual suspects which we'd expect to see in Standstill or Blade - which means you have to ask why the 2-drop is TITI instead of either of those namesake cards if we're trying to be a straight-up JTMS deck. Sure, you're doing something different with P-Fire package alongside JTMS, but I'm struggling to recall a time where I've seen those two ever perform together vs the meta...and I don't know how TITI joins into this triangle and fixes the underlying issues of underperformance. Even the new Nissa might outperform JTMS in your approach.
Don't worry that much about the yard hate, Dack is the game-changer in a TITI/P-Fire combo (top eight performances over in....Belgium I think). Importantly you also get to play basic lands in a more concentrated color identity (getting to JTMS mana through Wasteland is gonna be pretty hard, and you're probably just going to run into a mid-late game Daze). Some sideboard staples you're missing are white hate (Dread or Sulfur Elemental), TNN, probably a second Grudge, and probably a little less SB space on removal (you already have 8 pieces main) for greater emphasis on discard perhaps.
This last part has nothing to do with your list - but in general people need to stop using Probe/Cabal + Bolt with TITI (this means it should be a Pyromancer deck).
I gotta admit 1-2 Jace has always been good to me in URg TITI. With Miracles gone, the need to play it may be less now but in the previous meta it was an auto-include for me. Only after having added the 2-3 Dack Fayden.
It does some things just better, like being a topdeck out to a resolved Reanimator Creature or Goyf - TITI can do that too after 4 more spells, but in some situations it's just better. Or when in topdeck mode, Jace is better at actually adding cards to your hand, where Dack would leave you with +0.
So 2-3 Dack, 1-2 Jace feels like the correct number in a URg Punishing Fire build. In the current meta I'd probably opt for 2 Dack 1 Jace only to have slightly more interaction lower on the curve.
And I don't like the argument "but x and y is just a better JTMS deck", listening to that logic I should always just have sleeved up Miracles and never play funky decks like theseAs long as it is fun to play and performs well enough as a rogue deck, it should be fine.
Yeah, the real credit should go to Japan though as I just netdecked this guy's listDon't worry that much about the yard hate, Dack is the game-changer in a TITI/P-Fire combo (top eight performances over in....Belgium I think). Importantly you also get to play basic lands in a more concentrated color identity (getting to JTMS mana through Wasteland is gonna be pretty hard, and you're probably just going to run into a mid-late game Daze). Some sideboard staples you're missing are white hate (Dread or Sulfur Elemental), TNN, probably a second Grudge, and probably a little less SB space on removal (you already have 8 pieces main) for greater emphasis on discard perhaps.
This last part has nothing to do with your list - but in general people need to stop using Probe/Cabal + Bolt with TITI (this means it should be a Pyromancer deck).
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12297&d=270899
I don't agree with his new builds with TNN and 2 Stifle, http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13314&d=278164&f=LE
As Stifle never did for me what I wanted the deck to do, but that may be due to play style. And TNN requires you to tap out, which I also didn't want to do in a Snapcaster/Counterspell deck. Clique has just always felt better in this slot. With Miracles gone and Storm/combo being on the rise, Clique over TNN seems even better. The heavy burn suite should be enough to stop most creature decks in their tracks; when I lose to DnT it's usually with a resolved + equipped Sword of Fire and Ice, and then my True-Name got raced every single time anyway.
Then onto the OP's decklist:
One should always wonder what adding a new color adds in which matchups.
Your list is basically mine + black, adding these cards:
-1 Fatal Push
-4 Baleful Strix
-1 Leovold
-3 Thoughtseize
Sb
-2 Abrupt Decay
-1 Toxic Deluge
-1 Fatal Push
At first I didn't really like these changes, but I guess with thinking some more I can appreciate a few of them better.
I think this is not really a shell for Leovold. He randomly hoses an opponent once in a while, but I can't see which weaknesses of the deck he addresses
(the mana base seems also too unreliable for guaranteeing turn 1 Thoughtseize etc?)
The best matchups felt like combo (never lost to Storm, Reanimator, don't think to Show n Tell or Big Red either but those matchups I played less often) and creature decks (DnT, Elves).
So adding Thoughtseize may disrupt combo even more, but not sure if that matchup needed much fixing beyond maybe some Flusterstorms sb or dilluting the mana base for Fatal Push for the creature decks with 8ish bolts already.
And with Miracles gone, Abrupt Decay is less necessary (there's still Grudge for artifacts, or Engineered Explosives, Krosan Grip, ... for Rest in Peaces)
So the thing I got around to liking more and more in the black splash is Baleful Strix. This fixes most of our problems: a resolved Tarmogoyf, and Eldrazi, both of which are decks that care least about Bolt/PFire.
Not sure about wanting to run it myself because I still prefer the Blood Moon blowout for now, but I should probably look around to see if it's possible to integrate them some time as they do add value in the worst matchups. I'd only run them in sideboard though, as they don't have enough impact on the DnT/Elves or Combo matchups which are still rampant these days.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...gue-2017-05-04
And a variant on the deck (the RUG punishing fire variant) made a good showing again
@Fjaulnir, After playing online a bit, the deck doesn't feel very consistent. And lots of my opponents would Abrupt Decay or Diabolic Edict in response to the final trigger for flipping, I ended up winning with Jace most of the time...
I had a lot of fun against some combo (especially reanimator). I think the threat of Blood Moon is definitely real. I think going down to just the RUG colors probably provides more consistency, and allows more basics. Also, it might be a big thing that I don't have Dack Fayden for better filtering.
I'll try to simplify, I think the original RUG is probably better.
Abrupt Decay is definitely a problem for the deck yes, against Decay Decks I would never go all-in on your first Titi(s)
Tbh I wouldn't do this against a STP deck either, they can Plow the first 2 even if I have Fow in hand, my late game will be better anyway so I got time.
I don't play the deck in a very aggro way anyway, I take it very slow and controlling until I see an opportunity to flip and punch when their defenses are down; only against fast combo decks I'll try to just jam a 7/8 asap. against 4-Decay Bug decks Blood Moon is the best way to shut off their decays tho as it's otherwise just a bad matchup.
100% of your win condition dies to Reb.
Consider it
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13150&d=276995
Number of wincons: 16+1SB
Die to Reb: 11
=/= 100%
(not counting the option of countering said Reb; with Miracles gone, I haven't seen any deck with 4-8 Reb effects apart from Painter anyway. The 8 Reb postboard in Miracles made it indeed hard to beat postboard, but in any other matchup it hasn't come up for me personally. It's an annoying card for sure, but doesn't render the deck unplayable.
Otherwise Flusterstorm's very existence would mean Storm was unable to ever win against any blue deck, while instead it's a 11% of the meta deck)
The same guy made 5-0 again, now with a UB list, which I like for its cleanliness/straightforwardness too, keeping it simple to be able to run the powerhouse Back to Basics.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...gue-2017-05-06
Planeswalker (4)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
.
Creature (12)
3 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Thing in the Ice
2 True-Name Nemesis
.
Sorcery (7)
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Thoughtseize
.
Instant (15)
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
.
Artifact (2)
2 Engineered Explosives
.
Land (20)
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Flooded Strand
5 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
.
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
2 Back to Basics
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Duress
1 Engineered Plague
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
Anders Thiesen of European Eternal Weekend (x2!) fame is streaming the UB version with some of his own tweaks here: https://www.twitch.tv/alakazimdk
@Minniehajj thanks for the heads-up!
Also, the original creator of the 5-0's, ItIsUnfair (aka Nicklas Lallo), streams semi-regularly here: https://www.twitch.tv/ItIsUnfair
Since he also ran the red/rug version which I prefer, to a 5-0 some days earlier, I think that might be even more interesting for me thx!
Hey, thanks for bringing attention to the stream, always fun. Although I'm not sure how good the vods turned out but I'm still improving.
They kind of banned my miracles deck so now I have to try other things (in the ice).
I think I got lucky to get a 5-0 with the UB deck. It is not bad or anything, but it really struggles against some things and probably needs to be tweaked a bit. Specifically to beat artifacts like Chalice of the Void (although I beat 4 Chalice decks in that 5-0 league) and also Sword of Fire & Ice, easiest way is probably to splash a 3:rd color but that has other disadvantages of course.
I think the RUG list is solid. I haven't tried every configuration of RUG to find a perfect list yet or anything, but the core is strong. I have also really liked the 2 preordain.
I also think a UWRg list could be really good. It solves most of the real problems with the RUG build. I have tested it a bit but have not got a 5-0 yet. Specifically I would splash for 4 swords to plowshares as it both is a amazing removal spell in what I consider a fairly controlling deck to begin with, being able to deal with a lot of the things that the RUG list struggled with such as goyf, tombstalker or marit lage but it also acts as another way to give your opponent life when you have a punishing fire in the graveyard. And I would also add some good white sideboard cards such as Ethersworn Canonist and Containment Priest, and probably a wear // tear as dealing with enchantments is always a nice thing to have access to. The obvious problem with this is of course the mana, for example I had to go up a land in total and also cut a grove, the white land configuration I found to work best was 1 plains, 1 tundra, 1 arid mesa 4 flooded strand, 4 scalding tarn and the other UR lands. The reason is that if you ever manage to fetch a basic plains you can then just fetch volcanics and play groves and not worry about being wasted of a color as easily. But I have no idea about the actual number of other cards such as thing, snap, jace, dack, TNN, EE in a deck like this yet.
Yeah preordain is great, back when I ran RUG Titi I used to cut my 4th Ponder for a Preordain because sometimes it's just superior
I also noticed you play the 2 TNN maindeck in RUG, do you feel like they perform optimally? I have tried them a few times, but reverted to the original build with 2 maindeck Cliques instead, mostly because I didn't like having to tap out during my own turn (Jace/dack fayden being the only exception).
I love the extra disruption against combo that Clique provides, altho it may indeed be weaker to removal, Karakas and Eldrazi.
I'll also admit that I just dislike playing with TNN very much, I hate the design of the card so much that I'd rather play a suboptimal deck than having to play with him. So I am biased in general, but I still think Clique fits the playstyle of the deck better - at least the way I play it. Keeping your mana open with Clique, P Fire and Counterspell in hand just feels so gross, you'll have something to play in their turn no matter what; and you may untap with a 3/1 attacker regardless if they have nothing worth countering/punishing, without opening yourself up to a blowout like if you decide to just yolo jam the TNN
+ EOT Clique paves the way perfectly for untap, Jace/Dack
EDIT: also curious how you like the 2nd Bedlam Reveler you were playing in the vids I'm currently watching? I liked playing 1 because it can be randomly very valuable to just play a 2-3 mana refill your hand, but a second one seems a bit too much in theory, because often it was stuck in my hand leaving me unable to cast it - or because I didn't want to discard my Jace + Snapcaster in hand or something like that, so casting it is very conditional. Also leaves you even deader to RIP.
I haven't actually tested out a second one, so that's why I was wondering if it worked out better than I would think, and if you were generally happy with drawing it.
I haven't tested maindeck clique yet, it could very well be good. I would like more combo interaction in the main.
I have been happy with true name. The card is very unfair. But I could see testing a build without it.
I tested 2 bedlam for 1 league and they never did anything. I just kept shuffling them away since I never wanted to draw them I remember. They are probably better in a build with less counter magic and less Planeswalkers.
I'm currently testing a 2:nd dack as well.
I am just saying that incredibly common cards as such Pyroblast, Fatal Push, Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, Kolghan's Command or Pyroblast kill your threaths
I would suggest for example a couple of good old Gurmag Angler. They are resilient to everything mentioned above and they cheat in for B
They only suffer Swords to Plowshares and chump blockers
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