They have protection sure but your average delver deck runs 8 counters mainboard and probably 11+ post board. They need a lot of the right things in hand to go off.
The matchups aren't 80/20 if that's what you mean, but they're solidly in BUG's favor. And I definitely disagree that Grixis is significantly better against either deck. The only unique cards Grixis gets against either are Blasts, which are fine but mostly come in because they're better than maindeck cards like Gurmag Angler/TNN and Lightning Bolt.
I totally get that - I've played Grixis. Pyromancer+Probe+Therapy is a very powerful interaction, but it's also contingent on having all 3 pieces. Combo decks are particularly difficult to blind Therapy effectively (since they tend to just be cantripping if they aren't trying to go off) which makes even Pyromancer + Therapy only marginally better than Thoughtseize. Let's not pretend that Hymn isn't extremely potent disruption, especially when paired with countermagic.
Second this.
Speaking as a Storm player (both ANT and TES), I fear Hymn to Tourach a _lot_ more than the Probe-Therapy-Pyromancer triumvirate.
Part of the reason for this (in my experience) is that barring a lucky hand from the Grixis player, they are unlikely to have all their parts together and castable before turn three (yes, they might have been able to probe-therapy before then, but this is essentially just a Thoughtseize in most cases). By then a storm player has either gone off, or has cantripped to the point where they are pretty resilient to discard (and may well have gotten off a few discard spells of their own on the Grixis player).
Hymn to Tourach, on the other hand, regularly hits on turn two (again in my experience), where it both _always_ gets two cards (very significant for a combo deck), and is usually early enough to prevent most hand sculpting with cantrips. This, combined with the Delver deck's typically quick clock, is often enough to win the game.
For primarily this reason I have found the Hymn BUG Delver matchup to be among the most difficult of the Delver decks (considerably more so than Grixis Delver).
So, one of the more interesting (for me) aspects of the 'New Meta' is that Control variants now have to actually try to win the f'ing game, instead of sitting back on piles and piles of filtering and CounterTop lock waiting for an Entreat or a Mentor to get around to checking the box.
I really feel like some of the people who are most ingrained in 'spin top, shuffle, spin top, brainstorm, spin top, whatever, MIRACLES, win game' are suffering because they have to get back to a reasonable clock. It's painful to watch someone play Grix Delver like a draw-go control deck, and it's downright laughable how much permission they are trying to shove back into Show variants. If you want to beat elves reliably, you can't waste time not going off for 3 or 4 turns...
Check out my Legacy UBTezz Primer. Chalice of the Void: Keeping Magic Fair.
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Playing since '96. Brief forced break '02-04. Former/Idle Judge since '05. Told Smmenen to play faster at Vintage Worlds.
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Most of the 'Ban brainstorm!' arguments are based on the logic that 'more different cards should get played in Legacy', as though the success or health of the format can be measured by the portion of cards that are available and see play. This is an idiotic metric.
It's nice to see my local meta playing around with Patriot/Esper control. Yeah, they look a lot like slow midrange decks; but they grind you out in the expected manner. I enjoy that, while I haven't brought any, grave-recurrent creatures matter again [especially with Push making Grixis/Bug more attractive.]
Sadly enough, the zombardment/4c-grave guy is no longer in my area, as he could probably make his way in this meta a lot better.
Supremacy 2020 is the modern era game of nuclear brinksmanship! My blog:
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com
You can play Lands.dec in EDH too! My primer:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...lara-lands-dec
Yeah I've seen Boseiju's come out when playing S&T before but not very often.
Rest in Peace Zombardment guy![]()
Hareruya has had 6 Legacy tournaments of at least 6 rounds since the Top ban. Do you guys want me to add them to the data I've been compiling?
I rarely see Japanese tournaments in meta data. I see no reason not to (the decks aren't that wacky), and I assume it's just harder to find, but I figured I'd ask before I added it.
I dunno if this was the thread where everybody was worried about combo taking over, but here's the latest MTGO 5-0 league decks:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...gue-2017-05-11
BUG midrange city. Also keep in mind that these are "randomly" selected, for whatever that's worth.
Elves Discord Channel: https://discord.gg/2EVsdw2
Hypodermic injection into the paper meta data--
Big Magic Open Vol.9 - Sunday Legacy, 267 players, May 4
Death & Taxes, Burn, Eldrazi, U/R Delver, U/R Delver, Grixis Tempo, Grixis Control, Reanimator Depths, Team America, Grixis Tempo, Grixis Control, Imperial Painter, Grixis Tempo, OmniTell, Mono-Red Sneak Attack, ANT
Cardbox Open Vol. 1, 137 players,
May 7
Grixis Tempo, OmniTell, U/R Delver, ANT, Esperblade, Jund, Eldrazi, Infect
53 players, May 3
Esperblade, Grixis Control, U/R Delver, Grixis Tempo, Infect, BUG unclassified, Merfolk, U/R Delver
53 players, April 29
Sneak & Show, ANT, U/R Control, Eldrazi & Taxes, 12-Post, U/R Control, ANT, Elves
43 players, April 30
U/R Delver, B/R Reanimator, Elves, Grixis Control, BWG unclassified, Grixis Tempo, Eldrazi, OmniTell
33 players, May 5
Aggro Loam, Dredge, ANT, Merfolk, Grixis Tempo, Dragon Stompy, Doomsday, Merfolk
Win A Dual 22 Tübingen, 42 players, May 7
Grixis Tempo, Team America, Aggro Loam, Grixis Tempo, Esperblade, Grixis Tempo, Infect, Sneak & Show
48 players, May 7
U/R Delver, Tin Fins, Elves, Dragon Stompy, Elves, Infect, OmniTell, Oops, All Spells, Death & Taxes, Food Chain, Eldrazi, Belcher
Added to the previous numbers from MKM Frankfurt, Axion GPT, Arcanis, Valhalla's Gate, Spellhold GPT, Circuito, Olympus Roè Volciano, Duel for Duals, and Magic Master Series
1359 total points
50 different placing archetypes in 6+ round tournaments
DTB ≥ 62.514 points
DTBs: Grixis Tempo, Sneak & Show, Infect, ANT, OmniTell, U/R Delver, Death & Taxes, Elves
Grixis Tempo: 168
Infect: 84
Sneak & Show: 83
ANT: 73
OmniTell: 70
U/R Delver: 69
Elves: 63
Death & Taxes: 64
Eldrazi: 59
Team America: 49
Bant Deathblade: 45
B/R Reanimator: 44
Esperblade: 38
Czech Pile: 37
Grixis Control: 33
Burn: 27
Aggro Loam: 26
Food Chain: 25
Maverick: 19
Merfolk: 19
Aluren: 18
Jund: 18
Eldrazi & Taxes: 14
Dragon Stompy: 13
U/R Control: 13
4c Delver: 10
U/B Reanimator: 10
BUG Leovold: 9
Canadian Thresh: 9
Esper Delver: 9
Imperial Painter: 9
Mono-Red Sneak Attack: 9
Reanimator Depths: 9
UWR Control: 9
Dredge: 8
Junk: 8
Tin Fins: 8
UWr Stoneblade: 8
Dark Depths: 7
TES: 7
12-Post: 6
Belcher: 6
Big Eldrazi: 6
BUG unclassified: 6
BWG unclassified: 6
Doomsday: 6
Nic Fit: 6
Oops, All Spells: 6
Shardless BUG: 6
UWR Delver: 6
Last edited by Scott; 05-12-2017 at 02:08 AM. Reason: Adding tournament
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