The new Legacy metagame

[Smuggo]

They have protection sure but your average delver deck runs 8 counters mainboard and probably 11+ post board. They need a lot of the right things in hand to go off.

[Chatto]

They have protection sure but your average delver deck runs 8 counters mainboard and probably 11+ post board. They need a lot of the right things in hand to go off.

True, but that's why Boseiju is still relevant.

[btm10]

No it doesn't. Bug Delver will fall a lot against S&T or Storm. Grixis has better hate against combo and reach.

The matchups aren't​ 80/20 if that's what you mean, but they're solidly in BUG's favor. And I definitely disagree that Grixis is significantly better against either deck. The only unique cards Grixis gets against either are Blasts, which are fine but mostly come in because they're better than maindeck cards like Gurmag Angler/TNN and Lightning Bolt.

[Minniehajj]

The matchups aren't​ 80/20 if that's what you mean, but they're solidly in BUG's favor. And I definitely disagree that Grixis is significantly better against either deck. The only unique cards Grixis gets against either are Blasts, which are fine but mostly come in because they're better than maindeck cards like Gurmag Angler/TNN and Lightning Bolt.

You're forgetting Probe+Therapy+Pyromancer, which is the main reason to play Grixis over BUG in my opinion.

[btm10]

You're forgetting Probe+Therapy+Pyromancer, which is the main reason to play Grixis over BUG in my opinion.

I totally get that - I've played Grixis. Pyromancer+Probe+Therapy is a very powerful interaction, but it's also contingent on having all 3 pieces. Combo decks are particularly difficult to blind Therapy effectively (since they tend to just be cantripping if they aren't trying to go off) which makes​ even Pyromancer + Therapy only marginally better than Thoughtseize. Let's not pretend that Hymn isn't extremely potent disruption, especially when paired with countermagic.

[JDK]

They have protection sure but your average delver deck runs 8 counters mainboard and probably 11+ post board. They need a lot of the right things in hand to go off.

Against 8 counters mainboard and probably 10+ post board.

[Miscanthus]

?... Let's not pretend that Hymn isn't extremely potent disruption, especially when paired with countermagic.

Second this.

Speaking as a Storm player (both ANT and TES), I fear Hymn to Tourach a _lot_ more than the Probe-Therapy-Pyromancer triumvirate.
Part of the reason for this (in my experience) is that barring a lucky hand from the Grixis player, they are unlikely to have all their parts together and castable before turn three (yes, they might have been able to probe-therapy before then, but this is essentially just a Thoughtseize in most cases). By then a storm player has either gone off, or has cantripped to the point where they are pretty resilient to discard (and may well have gotten off a few discard spells of their own on the Grixis player).
Hymn to Tourach, on the other hand, regularly hits on turn two (again in my experience), where it both _always_ gets two cards (very significant for a combo deck), and is usually early enough to prevent most hand sculpting with cantrips. This, combined with the Delver deck's typically quick clock, is often enough to win the game.

For primarily this reason I have found the Hymn BUG Delver matchup to be among the most difficult of the Delver decks (considerably more so than Grixis Delver).

[Ellomdian]

So, one of the more interesting (for me) aspects of the 'New Meta' is that Control variants now have to actually try to win the f'ing game, instead of sitting back on piles and piles of filtering and CounterTop lock waiting for an Entreat or a Mentor to get around to checking the box.

I really feel like some of the people who are most ingrained in 'spin top, shuffle, spin top, brainstorm, spin top, whatever, MIRACLES, win game' are suffering because they have to get back to a reasonable clock. It's painful to watch someone play Grix Delver like a draw-go control deck, and it's downright laughable how much permission they are trying to shove back into Show variants. If you want to beat elves reliably, you can't waste time not going off for 3 or 4 turns...

[tescrin]

It's nice to see my local meta playing around with Patriot/Esper control. Yeah, they look a lot like slow midrange decks; but they grind you out in the expected manner. I enjoy that, while I haven't brought any, grave-recurrent creatures matter again [especially with Push making Grixis/Bug more attractive.]

Sadly enough, the zombardment/4c-grave guy is no longer in my area, as he could probably make his way in this meta a lot better.

[Crimhead]

True, but that's why Boseiju is still relevant.

Really? Is there anything currently playing this with success?

Edit - genuine surprise and genuine question.

[CptHaddock]

Really? Is there anything currently playing this with success?

Edit - genuine surprise and genuine question.

I think people still play it as maybe a 1 off in their skill and show deck but it seems kind of bad when people are killing you turn 2-3 or you are battling against the soft counter/discard deck that also plays wasteland and a flying 3/2.

[Nestalim]

Really? Is there anything currently playing this with success?

Edit - genuine surprise and genuine question.

During the Miracle Era, S&T used to pack one or two boseijtu in side, as it was totally destroying the match-up.

[Smuggo]

Yeah I've seen Boseiju's come out when playing S&T before but not very often.

[ironclad8690]

Sadly enough, the zombardment/4c-grave guy is no longer in my area, as he could probably make his way in this meta a lot better.

Rest in Peace Zombardment guy

[Scott]

Hareruya has had 6 Legacy tournaments of at least 6 rounds since the Top ban. Do you guys want me to add them to the data I've been compiling?

I rarely see Japanese tournaments in meta data. I see no reason not to (the decks aren't that wacky), and I assume it's just harder to find, but I figured I'd ask before I added it.

[Dice_Box]

Hareruya has had 6 Legacy tournaments of at least 6 rounds since the Top ban. Do you guys want me to add them to the data I've been compiling?

I rarely see Japanese tournaments in meta data. I see no reason not to (the decks aren't that wacky), and I assume it's just harder to find, but I figured I'd ask before I added it.

Fuck yes. More numbers are always good.

[danyul]

I dunno if this was the thread where everybody was worried about combo taking over, but here's the latest MTGO 5-0 league decks:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...gue-2017-05-11

BUG midrange city. Also keep in mind that these are "randomly" selected, for whatever that's worth.

[Megadeus]

I dunno if this was the thread where everybody was worried about combo taking over, but here's the latest MTGO 5-0 league decks:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...gue-2017-05-11

BUG midrange city. Also keep in mind that these are "randomly" selected, for whatever that's worth.

Looks like more people need to be playing Llawan.

[Scott]

Hypodermic injection into the paper meta data--

Big Magic Open Vol.9 - Sunday Legacy, 267 players, May 4
Death & Taxes, Burn, Eldrazi, U/R Delver, U/R Delver, Grixis Tempo, Grixis Control, Reanimator Depths, Team America, Grixis Tempo, Grixis Control, Imperial Painter, Grixis Tempo, OmniTell, Mono-Red Sneak Attack, ANT

Cardbox Open Vol. 1, 137 players,
May 7
Grixis Tempo, OmniTell, U/R Delver, ANT, Esperblade, Jund, Eldrazi, Infect

53 players, May 3
Esperblade, Grixis Control, U/R Delver, Grixis Tempo, Infect, BUG unclassified, Merfolk, U/R Delver

53 players, April 29
Sneak & Show, ANT, U/R Control, Eldrazi & Taxes, 12-Post, U/R Control, ANT, Elves

43 players, April 30
U/R Delver, B/R Reanimator, Elves, Grixis Control, BWG unclassified, Grixis Tempo, Eldrazi, OmniTell

33 players, May 5
Aggro Loam, Dredge, ANT, Merfolk, Grixis Tempo, Dragon Stompy, Doomsday, Merfolk

Win A Dual 22 Tübingen, 42 players, May 7
Grixis Tempo, Team America, Aggro Loam, Grixis Tempo, Esperblade, Grixis Tempo, Infect, Sneak & Show

48 players, May 7
U/R Delver, Tin Fins, Elves, Dragon Stompy, Elves, Infect, OmniTell, Oops, All Spells, Death & Taxes, Food Chain, Eldrazi, Belcher

Added to the previous numbers from MKM Frankfurt, Axion GPT, Arcanis, Valhalla's Gate, Spellhold GPT, Circuito, Olympus Roè Volciano, Duel for Duals, and Magic Master Series

1359 total points
50 different placing archetypes in 6+ round tournaments
DTB ≥ 62.514 points
DTBs: Grixis Tempo, Sneak & Show, Infect, ANT, OmniTell, U/R Delver, Death & Taxes, Elves

Grixis Tempo: 168
Infect: 84
Sneak & Show: 83
ANT: 73
OmniTell: 70
U/R Delver: 69
Elves: 63
Death & Taxes: 64
Eldrazi: 59
Team America: 49
Bant Deathblade: 45
B/R Reanimator: 44
Esperblade: 38
Czech Pile: 37
Grixis Control: 33
Burn: 27
Aggro Loam: 26
Food Chain: 25
Maverick: 19
Merfolk: 19
Aluren: 18
Jund: 18
Eldrazi & Taxes: 14
Dragon Stompy: 13
U/R Control: 13
4c Delver: 10
U/B Reanimator: 10
BUG Leovold: 9
Canadian Thresh: 9
Esper Delver: 9
Imperial Painter: 9
Mono-Red Sneak Attack: 9
Reanimator Depths: 9
UWR Control: 9
Dredge: 8
Junk: 8
Tin Fins: 8
UWr Stoneblade: 8
Dark Depths: 7
TES: 7
12-Post: 6
Belcher: 6
Big Eldrazi: 6
BUG unclassified: 6
BWG unclassified: 6
Doomsday: 6
Nic Fit: 6
Oops, All Spells: 6
Shardless BUG: 6
UWR Delver: 6

[Megadeus]

This meta looks fucking ripe for Deadguy with a good pilot. I think my old Revoker list probably can roll that top tier