U/G Nissa builds have handled somewhat awkwardly in testing and, having no paper Nissas anyway, I took the following C/g list to FNM yesterday. It is basically TheBoozeCube's list but with Explores "replacing" 3 Candelabras and some minor substitutions due to card availability:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 New Emrakul, Old Emrakul, New Ulamog, Old Kozilek
4 Ancient Stirrings, Expedition Map, Crop Rotation, Warping Wail
3 Pithing Needle, Explore
2 All is Dust, Ugin
1 Candelabra, Moment's Peace
4 Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Vesuva
7 Forest
1 Eye, Karakas, Cavern of Souls, Glacial Chasm, Thespian's Stage, Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, Sea Gate Wreckage, Bojuka Bog
Sideboard:
3 Trinisphere, Krosan Grip
2 Sphere of Resistance, Surgical Extraction
1 Moment's Peace, Dark Depths, Engineered Explosives, Silent Arbiter, Thought-Knot Seer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I won convincingly against Shardless, Lands, and Burn and lost in three games to Omni-Sneak (I keep losing that matchup 1-2). At no point did I miss Top and the deck feels powerful. Going forward I would replace Sea Gate Wreckage with a basic Forest and find room for a third Surgical in the sideboard.
Anyone who jumps ship on 12 Post and wants to sell/trade off Candelabras - let me know.
Last edited by k_omega; 05-13-2017 at 11:07 AM.
a.k.a. Eddy Viscosity
Can you believe that I tested over 10 builds with omni and Walking Ballista thinking it was an instant kill? even brought it to events and people let me do it. (small events). Go figure. I'm pretty out of the game since my LGS closed up.Originally Posted by Neko448
Here's what I was testing non-omni related though, and it is being quite resilient:
// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [8E] Forest (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [UNH] Island
1 [V12] Glacial Chasm
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [EXP] Misty Rainforest
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [GPX] Primeval Titan
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [CN2] Show and Tell
3 [MD1] Relic of Progenitus
3 [OGW] Warping Wail
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [UGF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [EMA] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 3 [JGC] Flusterstorm
I finally bought into MTGO so it's as good a time as any to stream again. Come watch a manchild stumble his way through a terrible client as he plays brews both great and terrible! Going live at about 1:45pm EST (about ten minutes from now).
http://www.twitch.tv/zotmaster
Come witness an appropriate amount of shenanigans and failure!
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
is the deck really better without gsz and oracle,/titans?
I haven't played it enough to definitively say that it is better, but it seems at least playable. I suspect that a GSZ build like you describe is less feasible in the new environment.
Not having Top makes Oracle a lot worse and makes it more difficult to assemble double green for Primeval Titan. I think that the latter fact forces some serious modifications to the deck, especially considering that the consistency of non-blue builds is already being hurt across the board (this is why I played a lot of 4-ofs and 3-ofs). Keeping a 4GG card exacerbates that problem.
My criticism of GSZ is that since there is very little room for toolbox creatures in the maindeck (and few good options anyway), you usually can GSZ for Dryad Arbor, Oracle, or Primeval Titan. Playing Dryad Arbor means you sometimes draw it, at which point you immediately discover how bad it is in that situation (I just mentioned how getting GG is hard - when one of your Forests can get Swords-ed it's even harder). You don't get T1 GSZ for 0 often enough either and it is usually correct to hold the GSZ in order to fetch a Titan later, so now the stupid Dryad Arbor floats around in your deck to muck up your draw step. Note that this problem becomes even worse with no Tops. I've already explained why I think Oracle no longer fits the deck, so now the only real option is GSZ for Titan. But that means that you're effectively playing 6+ copies of Titan, which means you have more early-game dead cards. That is not what I want to deal with in a meta where combo is resurgent. In contrast, cards like Explore, Stirrings, Warping Wail can be cast at any stage of the game. And then you still have to deal with cases where you draw a Titan and need GG.
Without Titan it takes more time to beat Lands though, since you have to fight for ~10 mana instead of 6.
a.k.a. Eddy Viscosity
That is essentially a MUD list without metalworker. A bit of a different tactic.
Well that's what we are all working on is a build that is without the Tops. The core the deck still hasn't changed much and using alternatives to get our card selection seems to be working. Top wasn't a major factor to the deck, it was just a nice addition to the deck. The problem is really the changed meta, it has appeared to gone combo heavy as expected since there is no major control deck to keep them down.
Rock Lee, How has Warping Wail been working? I need more convincing on it. Relic of Progenitus without Trinket Mage makes me think it will not show up at the right time. Trinket Mage seems like it would work well in that specific build. The build looks like you replaced Tops with Probes. Any specific reason behind it?
**EDIT**
I've been thinking about the meta change which is heavy combo and elves at the moment (at least my area) I keep coming to the conclusion that Stifle/Trickbind should be a necessity in the main. Lets go over the specific targets that will help for this deck. Of course there is many more decks but I am trying to cover the current meta only.
Fetch lands in general a great target. choke their manabase and they will crumble.
ANT/TES - Stifle those storm triggers! Let them have their 2 goblins or 2 health from Tendrills.
Elves - Stifle out Craterhoof. This will should be a decent advantage to allow you to regulate back out. You can also hit Nettle Sentinel, that will turn off their mana acceleration.
Food Chain - Food Chain. Some decks are now running Walking Ballista as an alt wincon. Overall hit their wincon.
Reanimator - Not as strong but if they open with a fetch, you can keep them out of mana for quite some time. Griselbrand card draw. Easily side out for your Grave hate.
Delver Variants - Decent amount of targets. Shardless Cascade trigger if they are running it. Young Pyromancer, Trickbind really does well against him. Liliana sacrifice. Wasteland or fetches. If Deathrite is running Fetches aren't a great target.
Last edited by Skriger; 05-15-2017 at 06:24 PM.
I finally got to play paper Legacy tonight for the first time in months. Went 3-0 with Cg, drew into a Top 4 split. My matchups were:
Round 1: D&T w/ B splash (2-0)
Round 2: Lands (2-0)
Round 3: 4c Delver (2-1)
Spatial Contortion was pretty great tonight. I couldn't decide what to cut to bring one into the main, so I just went with a 61/14 configuration. I was expecting to see red D&T and Blood Moon Stompy, and I wanted Spatial as an answer to Magus, so I swapped a basic Forest for a Wastes. Here's the list I played:
61 main / 14 sideboard
Creatures:4
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells:28
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
1 Spatial Contortion
4 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Lands:29
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
7 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Vesuva
1 Wastes
Sideboard:14
1 Silent Arbiter
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spatial Contortion
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
1 Dark Depths
Like I said, Spatial was great. Being able to take down Sanctum Prelates and flipped Delvers was definitely worth the slot. If I wasn't worried about the increased combo presence, I'd probably swap the one in the board for the 4th Warping Wail. I'm considering cutting Silent Arbiter for a 3rd Spatial, although that does give up points against Eldrazi. Or I might cut it for another Ratchet Bomb.
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Here's the "Jace" list I've been tackling.
Land (25)
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
3x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
1x Vesuva
Instant (17)
4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation
2x Cyclonic Rift
3x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
2x Stifle
Creature (10)
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Primeval Titan
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2x Vendilion Clique
Sorcery (6)
4x Ponder
2x Show and Tell
Artifact (1)
1x Candelabra of Tawnos
Planeswalker (1)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard (15)
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
3x Krosan Grip
2x Moment's Peace
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Trickbind
Is anyone trying to build in a similar direction? Any suggestions?
Cg is a totally different style of deck than the true monogreen builds you're thinking of. It's much more reactive and controlling. And the green is really just a light splash. Adding a bunch more green dilutes the power of Ancient Stirrings, which is arguably the best card in the deck and is what gives Cg much of its consistency.
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I can't help but think that most of the reasoning for the use of Stifle in these matchups doesn't hold much water:
ANT/TES: What kind of storm player isn't going to rip up your hand with discard before going off? This is actually an example of a matchup that is much weaker without Sensei Top because you no longer have a way to protect yourself through discard spells. Brainstorm doesn't do nearly as much justice. Stifle doesn't even work some, it is much more likely for a storm player to be able to combo through the countered storm trigger with past in flames or something.
Elves: If a craterhoof is coming in the elves player likely has enough of a board presence to kill you anyway. This is one of those matchups where getting up a Glacial Chasm is important, and no amount of craterhoof triggers matter in regards to that.
Food Chain: Trickbind or Stifle don't even work when it comes to stopping the combo. If the Food Chain player is any good at all they will activate the ballista ability all at once, so Trickbind stopping abilities doesn't even work. Even if they screw that up somehow, they can kill during your next turn. Even if you have the removal spell for the ballista before that even happens (likely artifact/enchantment removal), then what are you doing not using it on the Food Chain?
Reanimator: Trickbind is actually alright since denying 7 cards is huge and most people won't actually activate it multiple times in a row. You should be expected to have a karakas so trickbinding and tapping karakas is actually a legitimate strategy. It doesn't have as many applications as say straight up countering the spell would though.
Delver: The best argument for running stifle effects in post-sensei top ban world, but I don't think this is a matchup that really desperately needs improving. I wouldn't use any slots for this situational card anymore.
Finally, in regards to the whole stifling manabase, this is a deck that aims to get to lategame, and when other decks operate on a much lower land count, denying one land doesn't really do much justice in the long term. I really think that in the new world stifle should just be reserved for decks that can effectively make use of this most-common scenario of using it on fetchlands, that being delver since they can beat the opponents down while they're temporarily down on resources to respond.
12-post Discord: https://discord.gg/QxYVg3g
I agree with some, but not all, of this. Stifle effects are definitely worse for us in the Post-Top world, and some of those uses are, as you said, impractical. You can actually stop Food Chain or Sneak Attack with Trickbind, but only if your opponent does something really stupid (like, not activate Sneak more than once or get to an upkeep step with Food Chain on the board).
The better argument against Stifle effects is that they are much, much, much stronger on the play than they are on the draw. Delver players keeping a one-land hand with a load of cantrips is not an unheard of occurrence, and stopping a fetchland goes a long way to stopping them from improving their hand and slowing you down: they need to control the tempo of the game. On the draw, this is obviously far less practical, for the same reason that leading Cloudpost on the draw is much more dangerous.
It's more likely that the card would be better suited in a much heavier - if not entirely - blue build, where having answers to more things becomes more practical.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
Aaah, this looks much better. Sorry to burst your bubble there!
Personally, I've really struggled to pick up this deck again since Top got banned. It seemed so critical in the U/G lists. Have you felt your post-top post lists match up to the pre-top ones at all?
Some Fear the Dead
I am pointing out how it should be thought about as a mainboard card instead of a sideboard to help even out the current meta. I understand Siftle/Trickbind against certain decks isn't great. I am trying to reinforce that if you do get matched up, what's going to be the best pieces to hit to ensure your win.
The whole point of that post was to show the "what if" scenarios, game 1, if you had stifle/trickbind in your main 60 and you didnt know what deck you were going against. Post sideboard you can adjust and remove them as needed.
No matter what Combo decks are a bad matchup if it's a competent player. Stifle/Trickbind just add more ammo into your deck to combat them and get you to your next turn. Like you stated, we are late game winners.
Very true, If a storm player is knowledgeable of their deck, you will get torn apart by duress and cabal therapy. As I stated, If you had a Stifle/Trickbind in hand, the storm triggers are your best targets. This is one of the few situations in which Warping Wail will shine. You lock out cabal therapy and they then have to choose to go blind into their combo. ANT/TES is one of the worst matchups for 12-post. Post sideboard gives you a little bit more meat to handle them but still not that great.ANT/TES: What kind of storm player isn't going to rip up your hand with discard before going off? This is actually an example of a matchup that is much weaker without Sensei Top because you no longer have a way to protect yourself through discard spells. Brainstorm doesn't do nearly as much justice. Stifle doesn't even work some, it is much more likely for a storm player to be able to combo through the countered storm trigger with past in flames or something.
You are correct, Crop rotation into a Chasm is ideal. That's not the point. The concept is having stifle/trickbind in hand game one what is the best targets. having more than just one answer to deal with a situation give you better probabilities of winning, you can't argue that.Elves: If a craterhoof is coming in the elves player likely has enough of a board presence to kill you anyway. This is one of those matchups where getting up a Glacial Chasm is important, and no amount of craterhoof triggers matter in regards to that.
Your thinking out of context of game 1. Majority of 12post lists removal is Ulamog or a board wipe which handles both ballista and food chain. Trickbind is the only decent answer in this matchup. Being able to turn off Food chain one turn so you can try removing it on your turn is very crucial. Wouldn't you agree that you rather have more answers towards comboFood Chain: Trickbind or Stifle don't even work when it comes to stopping the combo. If the Food Chain player is any good at all they will activate the ballista ability all at once, so Trickbind stopping abilities doesn't even work. Even if they screw that up somehow, they can kill during your next turn. Even if you have the removal spell for the ballista before that even happens (likely artifact/enchantment removal), then what are you doing not using it on the Food Chain?
Trickbind really ruins Griselbrands day. Slows them down just a bit. Especially if they sneak attack him out. Case in point here again. Ideally you've kept a hand with a crop rotation for these situations. But only have essentially 4 cards to answer this deck is terrible. I peronsally don't keep a hand with either a bojuka bog or karakas unless the other 6 are wonderful.Reanimator: Trickbind is actually alright since denying 7 cards is huge and most people won't actually activate it multiple times in a row. You should be expected to have a karakas so trickbinding and tapping karakas is actually a legitimate strategy. It doesn't have as many applications as say straight up countering the spell would though.
Same concept here again. Unknown opponent, and a stifle/trickbind in hand, these are your best targets.Delver: The best argument for running stifle effects in post-sensei top ban world, but I don't think this is a matchup that really desperately needs improving. I wouldn't use any slots for this situational card anymore.
Personally, I think Delver variants are the most strongest decks as of now. I agree, they are the best shell for these types of cards. Yet, I have used stifle on a fetch land against a goblin deck during their turn 1. locked them out of their mana to drop Aether vial. Then dropped a pithing needle to lock their vial down completely. Essentially a win until they get another land up. At this point I am not as worried about wasteland since they are now desperately in need of mana. Any deck running =<20 lands will not like getting stifled. Their probability of lands coming up is slim. I feel that reinforces your comment that 12 post is a late game deck. I feel it merits testing in our builds if you are using Blue. Most of you have dropped blue and gone G/W or mono Green and worked on the ramp combo side of the deck. I'm strictly speaking on the G/u builds that are sticking to the control method. Board-state control to delay for our late game win.Finally, in regards to the whole stifling manabase, this is a deck that aims to get to lategame, and when other decks operate on a much lower land count, denying one land doesn't really do much justice in the long term. I really think that in the new world stifle should just be reserved for decks that can effectively make use of this most-common scenario of using it on fetchlands, that being delver since they can beat the opponents down while they're temporarily down on resources to respond.
I've been running a very similar list to theBoozeCube's C/g list for over a year now. I never missed the Tops when I switched over from playing the u/g builds. And yes, I play 61 main deck cards with a full 15 in the side cause I'm bad at magic. I never got to play against a lot of miracles when it was running around. But all other matchups weren't that bad, except for blood moon decks. I hate blood moon, but only when I'm playing this deck.
61 main / 15 sideboard
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Song of the Dryads
4 Crop Rotation
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
7 Forest
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Silent Arbiter
I've been running a very similar list to theBoozeCube's C/g list for over a year now. I never missed the Tops when I switched over from playing the u/g builds. And yes, I play 61 main deck cards with a full 15 in the side cause I'm bad at magic. I never got to play against a lot of miracles when it was running around. But all other matchups weren't that bad, except for blood moon decks. I hate blood moon, but only when I'm playing this deck.
61 main / 15 sideboard
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Song of the Dryads
4 Crop Rotation
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
7 Forest
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Silent Arbiter
1. Why Great Distortion over Butcher of Truth?
2. How has Song of the Dryads been for you?
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I mostly agree with this, I think the disparity in power between going first and going second is too great for Stifle and I always considered trickbind to be the better of the two in this deck. I do want to point out that Trickbind doesn't actually work on Food Chain since Food Chain doesn't actually target, therefore not giving you the ability to respond to it.
I didn't say Stifle effects were bad, in fact I ran 3 copies of Trickbind in my build before top ban. My main problem is that I think some of the reasons you cited specifically are bad examples: Some don't even work practically speaking, and some are so corner case that they would not do nearly as much justice. I also find it incredibly unsettling that you believe in Trickbind effects while you're somehow still skeptical of Warping Wail, which is also "situational" but much less so than Trickbind effects were, almost to the point where it's not even truly situational.
I am fairly sure storm players wouldn't go in blind anymore because there isn't an effective lock coming anytime soon like there used to be (that being Sensei Top floating). They have the ability to go on a little longer, and they will. I thought the matchup was actually interesting and slowly getting closer and closer to even before top ban, but now that top is banned I think the matchup is bad again.
Fetching a Chasm isn't even ideal, 99% of the time it is REQUIRED to win the game vs elves. The scenario you described is so niche that it's not even worth using as an argument.
What I said regarding stifle effects vs Food Chain aren't just applicable to post-board games, considering I even stated that the card isn't even good post-board. I'm saying Trickbind doesn't freaking work when it comes to interacting with the combo, and I described why that is the case.
Regarding Reanimator, if you're only using it to deny a single draw 7 and not combining it with Karakas, then trickbind/stifle essentially says "Target Player loses 7 life", since they have every right to activate it again if it's stifle, or to activate it during the following turn if it's trickbind. Not only do you not have the ability to punish them for paying 14 life, but they also draw more gas to reload with more reanimation spells and they still have a 7/7 flying lifelink on the field. You basically have to at the very least expedition map or crop rotation into a Karakas because of this, even without a trickbind effect. You also mentioned earlier that you aren't convinced about warping wail, which would definitely count as more mainboard interaction, and I would even argue much better interaction.
Finally, your last statement seems to be using a cherry-picked example where everything worked out perfectly, that scenario simply isn't realistic in the vast majority of games, and the scenario you described isn't even close to a win, you even said yourself it's until they draw another land, which is really likely considering how many turns this deck takes and having 3rd land and/or some other way to cheat mana isn't even rare. Because I almost never felt compelled to stifle a fetchland, I opted for 3 trickbinds back when I ran them mainboard. Nowadays however, the most popular decks people are playing right now is great for Warping Wail, so I will probably be using that as the "versatile card of choice" over Trickbind.
12-post Discord: https://discord.gg/QxYVg3g
@theboozecube:
1. I find myself running low on cards most of the time, and when I fetch and use him, I usually refill my whole hand. And if you can land him against certain combo deck, they just scoop. Yes, I have dropped him against storm before and it was awesome. The menace does matter sometimes.
2. Song of the dryad has been a really good catch all. I use it on troubling permanents such as blood moon. I have copied opponents Jace before also. Pretty awesome to see your opponent wonder how songs work and abuse it with vesuva.
Guys you are forgetting that Stifle/Trickbind are generally worse in the post top era because there are no miracle triggers. Nevertheless, i play them in the more U oriented lists. They're just so fun to play... I'll probably go test my dreadnought build now
I strongly suggest running Song of the Dryads in green builds. I can't count the number of times it's saved my ass. Running 1-2 mainboard is what I've found to be the right number when you have Cantrips. It's generally a terrible idea to give an opponent extra mana but when you're in a pinch it's more beneficial for you than your opponent. We also get so far ahead on mana that it rarely makes a large impact. And some decks (burn) do not benefit much from a basic forest.
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