I think B2B is not very good. I was not a big fan. They just fetch + Blast or Decay. Moon and Blast are 2 reasons I am leaning towards thesplash. I was trying to think of ways to make
or
work and I think they'd be more cute than good.
B2B is insane against Eldrazi, but other than that it is underwhelming.Originally Posted by itrytostorm
I think B2B is not very good. I was not a big fan. They just fetch + Blast or Decay. Moon and Blast are 2 reasons I am leaning towards the
Edit:
For some of us playing BEB in side, I'd suggest that dispel is a better card overall, except in burn matchup you need to kill a red permanent.
In lands infested meta, I would suggest playing sanctum prelate.
After looking at my losses, I think blood moon would help those matches significantly. If I can play some games today, it will be with the
Does the R splash involve 2 volcanics maindeck and one Mountain in the SB like we used to run? I like the Karakas against Marit and Sneak.
The other options against Pfire include TNN or a pro-red critter like Kor Firewalker, who basically bricks the strategy if they don't run another color to get rid of him. Firewalker is also a good card in the Burn matchup. I would not play either of these cards unless your meta is majorly Lands, Jund, Burn, and 4c Loam.
Guys how you plan to answer chalice? Deck runs so much cantrips and UA is temporal answer to chalice. So far as i can see noone is running disenchant in sb or concil judjment. I know that eldrazi for some reason in not popular any more, but chalice is a thing and we must remember about that.
UA + portent/JTMS/predict/response to shuffle effect all deals with Chalice. It's not a compact of an answer as a Disenchant or Wear//Tear, but it's mainboard which is nice. I imagine you could run some number of Judgment/Disenchant/Wear//tear if your meta calls for it.
If Lands and/or greedy mana base decks become a problem And you want to stick to UW, there is a high risk solution: global ruin. It could work if you have some board presences like Jace or Clique and your opponent doesn't have the PFire combo going yet. Also, Needle is a SB card diverse enough to help in this MU.
If your opponent drops Chalice too early, then it might be too much damages before you find an answer. UA can be a good answer, not just a temporal answer. You need to UA first, then Portent/Predict/Jace the Chalice away immediately. If they shuffle for whatever reasons, you can screw them with just UA in respond.
The problem with UA is that it's not a long-term solution against DnT. DnT simply has too many permanents you want to answer to, anything from Vials to equipments to sometimes planeswalker or prelate. A Smart DnT player will not overly commit problematic permanents. Disenchant is definitely diverse enough for you to run in the SB.
The biggest issue with Chalice is against 4c loam/Maverick. They can have a lock of Chalice on 1 and Gaddock Teeg. The Karakas version gives you one potential out, but it can be miserable.
Believe I've mentioned before, Venser is the solution to all your fair deck MUs and sometimes Show and Tell problems, more often than one might think.
In relation to Chalice, people seem to underestimate Dragon Stompy decks, including myself. This deck has been crushing me since Day 2 of GP Chiba. Like many have said, the new Miracles can never actually stabilized via CB like the old Miracles. I understand the motivation behind Skull or Baneslayer. With that said, I feel we can No longer just put in a Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast and call it done. I feel we need to take a more serious look at these aggressive Dragon Stompy and the occasional Burn. I know combo decks would ruin these red mages in the long run, but I would personally consider something like Kor Firewalker. Firewalker is better than CoP or Sphere of Law because it actually attacks Chandra. People complain Firwalker being too narrow, but after you place your usual graveyard and combo hate in the SB, Red hate appears to be the only issue left.
Not sure where you're playing, but I've found the moon stompy decks really easy with this build. I respect them plenty too.
I have actually had zero problems with DnT lately. If I did have a problem it was because Portent is Portent and not SDT. I usually lose because the deck loses to itself like a normal deck now.
I definitely agree with you here. I played Legends Miracles for several months up until Top was banned and felt very comfortable with Venser against a wide range of threats that may have otherwise been troublesome. These include Equipment, Plainswalkers, Marit Lage, Show and Tell, and numerous other ad-hoc applications.
I have not tested Venser in the current meta, but I am curious to see if he's powerful enough to earn a SB spot.
Last edited by Swampfoot48; 05-25-2017 at 02:52 AM.
Based on how many basics we run, Moon Stompy doesn't seem that hard unless they catch you with your pants down fetching for Tundras. We run 3 maindeck answers to Chalice and 7 hard counters.
Second this. I preferred the Legends Miracles build myself, and I continually found myself appreciating Venser's flexibility and overall utility. There was practically no problem he wasn't at least a temporary answer for, and very often that temporary answer was just enough to either find a more permanent answer or win the game outright.
I'm trying to find a way to fit a 'Legends Package' (2 Clique, 2 Venser, 2 Karakas) into this build of Topless Miracles, but I'm not sure what to cut.
Without Counterbalance, I'm leery of dropping below 7 Counters (maybe 6?). I want at least 8 removal and some people are running 9, and it seems like the 16 Cantrip package (4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Portent, 4 Predict), is becoming pretty accepted as standard, although I've noticed some are going to 3 Portent and/or Predict.
I've noticed a few decks that tried Venser in the sideboard, has anyone else tried working a Legends Package into their maindeck?
EDIT: Any other suggestions for dealing with Red? I have a lot of Burn in my local meta, and I felt like I was struggling pretty hard against it, so I'm glad to see that other people are having a tough time with that matchup as well.
If you have that much burn, Kor Firewalker, COP Red, and such would be the best thing to do.
Couple things
* Have any of you guys run into issues getting UU up early in the game without getting wastelanded to death? Between 2 Plains & 1 Karakas, I've found myself mulling more hands than I would like
* 1x Venser has been really strong out of the board. Helps with S&S, good in the grindy matchups, and pitches to force. That said, I don't think diluting the deck with a clunky 5-6 card legends package is worth it.
* Counterbalance owns burn. The end.
4-1 with UWr. Lost to Elves, beat UR Delver, Belcher, Elves, and Deathblade.
Could you please share more your experience of the red splash?
I am sad to see 'lost to elves', but understandably not as cake-walking as prior to top banning.
I am trying a ~Legends build right now. Things are a lot different now though and I would say that you can add 3 Jace to your list of what's become standard. That being said, I feel that the 3rd Jace necessarily pushes a 2nd possible Venser out of a 4 CMC slot. The list I am testing is as follows:
Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Predict
3 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Terminus
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Entreat the Angels
Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
6 Islands
2 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Karakas
Sideboard
3 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
2 Back to Basics
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Leyline of Sanctity
Here are my matches so far:
Esper Stoneblade: W
Esper Deathblade: W
Sultai Delver: W
Lands: W
Burn: W
Grixis Delver: L
Here are some of my notes / thoughts:
1) I'd like to try a 2nd Karakas like the good ole days, but was really interested in seeing if 20 land in this shell could support a MD Venser with another in the SB. The answer is an emphatic yes, which blows me away since I always played 22 ( +1 Cavern, +1 Karakas ). Then again, that was with only 4 Brainstorms and 2 Ponders.
2) I am experimenting with Leyline over Ethersworn Canonist in the side board to see what impact it has on the Burn matchup, which has been very tough. So far so good, as my lone matchup against it was a hard fought game 1 win on the back of Entreat, followed by a turn 1 win after my opponent conceded to Leyline.
3) I have always had tremendous results with Back to Basics so it's a bit surprising to me that it hasn't been getting the job done for many of those that have posted. I think it would be great to not have to occupy 2 SB slots, but I am very concerned about the Eldrazi matchup now without it. I know the deck's share of the meta has plummeted, but I hate the idea of going into this matchup without the tools to beat it. Maybe I'll end up with just one in the SB, but I can't imagine 0.
4) I am so amazed by the power of all of our new tricks with Unexpectedly Absent / Portent / Jace / Predict! Minniehajj, Whitefaces, ItIsUnfair, and everyone else, thank you for breathing life back into this deck!
Why are you guys so set on the legends build in the first place? Legend miracles mainly arose as a way to combat the mirror while maintaining the same core components that gave miracles a plus matchup vs the rest of the field.
After around 20 league matches, the only thing I'm somewhat concerned with are the counterspell/spell pierce ratio and the amount of non-wastelandable white/blue sources.
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