B) For sure. I still like Surgical over Faerie Macabre just because its more versatile in other matchups (Storm, Punishing Fire decks, etc). Macabre is really only for Reanimator.Originally Posted by tescrin
D) Yeah, I 100% agree with your original post where you board in 2 E-Tutors for the hard combo matchups, 1 for infect/elves/etc.
Im not sure if Id even board it in vs fair decks like D&T and TNN. We can definitely win the fair fight and the card disadvantage of E Tutor might not be worth it in the matchup.
E) Yeah, E Tutor definitely opens the door to a lot of avenues in the sideboard. You dedicate 2 slots for the actual tutor, but when sideboarding, you can actually bring in more cards.
For example: bringing in 2 Faerie Macabre vs 2 Enlightened Tutor + 1 Grafdiggers Cage vs reanimator. It might be a turn slower, but it gives me more access to defend myself against those decks.
Thanks again for the suggestion and Ill continue testing :).
Hate to double post but I wanted to update on my testing. Played 3 post board games vs my friend on elves yesterday. Small sample size, but very promising results.
My sideboard plan was
+1 Grafdiggers Cage, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Enlightened Tutor, +2 Zealous Persecution, +2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Containment Priest, +1 Engineered Plague
-3 Dark Confidant, -3 Lingering Souls, -3 Liliana of the Veil
-1 Sword of Fire and Ice.
Won all 3 post board matchups. Going T1 Deathrite, T2 Hymn, EOT Enlightened Tutor for plague, cast plague.
Other game I had Zealous Persecution so my opponent was left with an almost empty board. Tutored up Jitte with Enlightened Tutor and proceeded to win.
Its such a versatile card. Fetch up plague if youre behind. Fetch up jitte if youre ahead. Already tutored jitte? Tutor up Cage if youre scared of Natural order or Canonist if youre afraid of Glimpse. Looking forward to how it is vs other matchups. But so far, even having access to 4 Ethersworn Canonist with E Tutor vs storm has already sold me.
Played a somewhat different GB Green Sun version tonight. Went 3-0-1 with a weird set of match ups, but it felt pretty good.
4 Deathrite
4 Goyf
2 Scooze
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Hystrodon
1 Titania, Priestess of Argoth
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Skinrender
2 Eternal Witness
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn To Tourach
3 Fatal Push
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
3 Natural Order
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
9 Fetches
SB:
2 Choke
2 Lost Legacy
2 Krosan Grip
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Dread of Night
2 Cabal Therapy
Deck felt tight. NO package might be bad, but I like having an over the top finisher. Titania is castable, but pretty solid at getting with NO too. Skinrender and Hystrodon are bad and loose, but with those and the edicts, I really didn't want to lose to True Name. Deck was good though. I love having a solid mana base. Any better green Sun targets I'm missing?
Ichneumon Druid
Grim Flayer
Ulvenwald Tracker
off of the top of my head. Flayer is good if you're aiming at getting through True Name.
3 Natural Order seems excessive.
If you want to get a little more jankier against Delver, there's Skylasher, Daybreak Ranger, or even Master of the Wild Hunt.
You could probably find use for some Golgari Charms against True Name or use it as regeneration against these removal heavy blue decks. Troll Ascetic or Thrun could be useful as well.
For real GB Trashcan is a legit deck. Imo Flayer is really good when all you are playing against are Delver decks.
Deck felt good. Rock Solid (heh) mana base. I am torn on cutting down on green sun targets and adding bad things like Night's Whispers or worse things like Sinkholes and going full on Eva Green.
Sorry for delay, busy week!
So it was a small local GPT, only 14 players, but that still meant 5 rounds and cut to a top 4. I went 4-1 in swiss, and lost in finals of top 4.
That brings my record to 16-6 across the 3 events I've competed in with this deck since top ban, I'll post all my matchups below. Perhaps it would be good to keep a record of how people do against each deck so we can get some data on our strengths and weaknesses and change the deck accordingly?
I registered:
21
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Verdant
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept
4 Wasteland
4 STP
4 TS
2 IoK
4 DRS
2 Hymn
1 Decay
4 Bob
4 Goyf
3 SFM
1 Library
2 Liliana
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Council's Judgment
3 Lingering souls
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK
Side
2 Surgical
2 Canonist
2 Spirit of the Labia
2 Cont Priest
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Lost Legacy
2 Zealous
1 Deluge
1 Choke
Deck list choices: I really wanted to play lingering souls, so I played SFM as well... I exchanged maindeck persecutions for a deluge and some of the souls. They all play similar roles (killing X/1s and avoiding TNN, with souls being better against planeswalkers but worse against X/1 decks that don't attack like elves) I wanted to play hymn as well to add more card advantage and combo interaction so I cut a decay and library. I usually reserve two sideboard slots as card advantage cards for other midrange matchups, I've been running deluge in one of those slots for a while and have been happy, the other slot is usually a walker (garruk) or painful truths or something, but I chose to give choke a try because what's the chance the midrange decks I play are Jund instead of Uxx, plus it has utility against combo (spoiler alert I pay Jund twice.)
Round 1: White Stax
G1 Discard stops an armegeddon, bob keeps cards flowing, drs stops wasteland recursion, and lands pay for tabernacle, council's judgment stops him from stabilising with a trading post
G2 Lingering souls laughs at humility and discard stops everything else.
Sideboard: +1 Surgical, +2 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Lost Legacy +2 ZP (I know he plays elspeth and goats). -1 Jitte, -1 Deluge -4 STP
Win 2-0, Record: 1-0
Round 2: UB Sneak and Show (Lim Dul's First Day at School)
G1 I mull to 4 and slowly die to cantrips (jk I get emrakuled after the cantrips)
G2 Discard and hatebears do their job
G3 Discard and hatebears do their job
Sideboard: +2 Surgical, +2 Canonist +2 Spirit, +2 Priest +2 Teeg +1 Lost Legacy +1 Choke. -4 STP, -1 Jitte, -1 BSK, -1 SFM, -1 Decay, -1 Deluge, -3 Souls
Win 2-1, Record: 2-0
Round 3: UR Sneak and Show
G1 On the draw, FoW my discard and kills me T2
G2 Oops... I had DRS, Bob and a Spirit of Lab in play and he had a sneak attack and I knew he had two griselbrands in hand that he couldnt draw cards off of because of spirit. Given this is my 3rd time playing magic after a hiatus I forgive my self, but I forgot sneak attack can sneak defend, and attacked with my bob and spirit. He puts in grisel brand, blocks spirit and draws 14. Despite this I still nearly won, though after all those cards its no wonder he had a key spell pierce for a winning surgical extraction.
Sideboard: +2 Surgical, +2 Canonist +2 Spirit, +2 Priest +2 Teeg +1 Lost Legacy +1 Choke. -4 STP, -1 Jitte, -1 BSK, -1 SFM, -1 Decay, -1 Deluge, -3 Souls
Lose 0-2, Record 2-1
Round 4: Reid BUG (4 Hierarch 4 DRS, TNN + Leovald, no equipment)
G1 I forget what happens, but I'm pretty sure toxic deluge and lingering souls were key to winning
G2 Made up for last round by playing around daze perfectly, racing 2 TNN with 4 lingering tokens and casting liliana for the edict at just the right time to secure the race.
Sideboard: +1 Deluge +1 Choke (I didn't see any heirarchs G1 so I didnt side in persecutions). -2 IoK
Win 2-0, Record 3-1
Round 5: Jund
G1 I cast a SFM, he hymns me taking the bsk and a land, he doesn't need to kill the SFM, and kills everything else I play, I'm stuck on two mana rest of the game and he kills me
G2 Lingering Souls grind a way
G3 I'm flaiing a bit, I have 2 souls token against his liliana, drs, BBE and goyf. I poke liliana with souls to kill her, then deluge for 5 and wipe the board. He plays a bob, I flash back souls and STP bob, win the game from there.
Sideboard: (Wish I didn't have Choke..) +1 Deluge +1 Surgical (for punishing). -2 IoK
Win 2-1, Record 4-1
Top 4, Semis: BR Reanimator
G1 He has chancellor of the annex to stop my T1 discard and then T1s grislbrand. Toxic deluge for 7 isn't enough to save me :P
G2: DRS + Surgical
G3: DRS + Priest + Council's Judgement
Sideboard: +2 Surgical +2 Canonist +2 Spirit +2 Canonist +1 Lost Legacy. -3 SFM -1 Jitte -1 BSK -1 Deluge -3 Souls
Win 2-1, Record 5-1
Top 4, Finals: Jund (again)
G1: He hymns me and I have mana problems
G2: I keep Windswept Wasteland SFMx2 STP Deluge x2, I fetch plains and stp his drs, then drop sfm, he kills it, drop another he kills it. I never draw another source of mana and never get to cast the drs or bobs I draw. He doesn't draw a wasteland either... So in hindsight scrubland would have been better. But I think I would have kept and made the same choices everytime. Thoughts?
Sideboard: (Wish I didn't have Choke..) +1 Deluge +1 Surgical (for punishing). -2 IoK
Lose 0-2, Record 5-2
Overall, Souls great, hymns good, SFMs entirely mediocre and tempo loss if anything. Wish I had another land. I only win combo games 2 and 3, so I'm going to move a lot of discard to the sideboard and focus on the creature decks in G1 since they are the majority of the format. More deluge, removal, maybe 4 souls, maybe just 2 or 1 sfm and keep a jitte and sofai. Souls are fine without equipment. Need something to fill the SFM 2 drop slot, perhpas nothing is better. Hymn is devastating (2/3 of the jund games I died to hymn) I've tried grim flayer a bit, but a 2/2 bear is too slow. Bitterblossom has some appeal. I also want to try jamming more trackers.
Overall Matches: 16-6 (72%)
Overall Games: 34-18 (65%)
Overall Matchup Matches:
Elves 2-0
D&T 5-2
Bant Blade 2-1
BUG 2-0
Czech Pile 1-2
Grixis Delver 2-0
White Stax 4-1
Alluren 2-0
UR S&S 2-5, Post Sideboard: 2-2
UB S&S 2-1, Post Sideboard: 2-0
Ux S&S Total: 4-6, Post Sideboard: 4-2
Infect 2-0
Jund 4-3
BR Reanimator 4-3, Post Sideboard: 4-1
Deck I'll be testing:
21
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
4 Verdant
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept
4 Wasteland
3 TS
4 DRS
4 STP
2 Decay
3 Hymn
1 Loam
1 Library
1 Bitterblossom
4 Bob
4 Goyf
2 SFM
2 Liliana
2 Deluge
3 Lingering Souls
1 Judgment
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
SB
3 Duress
2 Surgical
2 Canonist
2 Spirit of Labia
2 Cont Priest
2 Teeg
2 Zealous
A bit worried about the lack of 1 drops, but if Jund can do it...
Last edited by Jain_Mor; 05-27-2017 at 10:45 AM.
Junk and Stoned Rhinos.
Revoker is a solid 2 drop that really helps combo matches, and is randomly super useful against fair stuff like walkers. Or even naming deathrite when it's more advantageous for you. I used to love it in Deadguy
I think if you're down on SFM, doing 2x SFM, 1x Jitte, 1x SoFaI is perfectly fine. It gives you the outs to Burn, Elves, and D&T you want, without dealing with the overhead of clunky or obnoxious cards like the 3rd SFM or the BSK. Personally, even in Blue, I can't for the life of me enjoy searching up BSK. It's such obnoxious tempo loss when they kill the token. It's why I often kill opposing tokens. "Yes you got a 3 for 1, but you spent 4 mana doing it, and the card advantage is useless for 3 turns."
I know that it sucks when I don't have the removal, and maybe I'm just supposed to jam it... but meh. I only tutor BSK when I'm trying to get them to remove SFM.
That said, SFM is not an ideal T2 play. She's best when it's T3/T4 and you have a boardstate or their removal is waning. Gives you more time to decide what will win the game. I do think you should keep her in for the obnoxious MUs, because when you see that Jitte against Burn, Elves, D&T, opposing DGA, Infect, etc.. it feels great; like your deck is unstoppable. And there are times where her subtle CA or ability to drop in equips uncountered comes up and it just isn't noticable.
If you're not in Blue and you're not running Mother of Runes, I really don't think going above 2xSFM works well anyway. It makes you want to run BSK when you do, and BSK often isn't very good if you can't protect the SFM/Token except fringe plays like TES-Gobbos.
I'm happy to be wrong, but even my experiences in blue have left me often cutting the BSK and going back and forth with it. It's also *super* weak to Jace where it costs you 8 mana per set.
EDIT: But consider a third equip anyway. I think SoLaS is often reasonable, and SoBaM as a token maker and "super unblockable" sword is okay for grinding.
I think in this deck if you have souls and goyf you can get away with no BSkull. Unfortunately otherwise you probably need it in Deadguy or DnT where you just don't have a fatty. And like you said, often I just use SFM to get BSkull as a pseudo duress for removal. Is everyone low on rhino now? I feel like rhino junk is still really good, especially if true names and leoturds are floating around a bunch. Also how does everyone feel about decay? I have almost found it somewhat unnecessary and kind of like having edict main for marit lage, true name, or emrakul, or just playing like vindicate to go harder on LD maybe?
Agreed with all of the above.
I think its hilarious that a lot of people in the discussion threads were claiming decay wasn't be played so much because of counter top, and that even with the banning its presence would stay the same. I can't speak for actual statistics (though I would beat on it being the case) but I always played 4, and last event I registered just 1 and it was honestly fine. Edict would be good I imagine, I play council's to answer TNN and Jace.
Revoker is interesting, but doesn't feel like a main deck card.
Man, I love rhino, I was on that hard when UR delver with treasure cruise was the thing to beat, but he's smaller than anglers, dies to stp, baleful strix and fatal push now and doesn't provide any value. I think tracker is a better card in midrange.
Does anyone have records of their matchups with this archetype? I would like to collect more.
Junk and Stoned Rhinos.
If you were choosing between Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad which would you take? I realize you'd probably say "Garruk Relentless" but I'm in Esper. I just figure people here actually use Jank since I'm from this batch.
Elspeth is harder to cast, requiring 2 of the 3 duals if you have 3 basics. Sorin can be cast off of 3 basics + anything.
That said, Elspeth seems *way* stronger, and my experience with her has been very positive. She starts at 5 loyalty after either ability, and both abilities are a house. The tokens may not have an ability, but being White is quite good if you run into a crusader.
Sorin's big positive is that if you have 4 dudes or more, his buff is bigger, is permanent, he's easier to cast by a smidgen, and his dudes have Lifelink, which is meh but it could be worse. The thing about *his* buff though is a single 1/1 swing will make him a 4-mana half-of-abad moon. When Elspeth pumps, she can be hit by a TNN, Delver, or similar, and still be crapping dudes or giving a beater flying.
I'm sticking with Elspeth for tonight since she's been doing work on occasion, and being a battleship in the Loyalty department makes her more versatile/easier to use. That said, all Souls/Blossom tokens being 2/1 or 3/1 if he lived a couple turns.. that's brutal.
EDIT:
@Jain on Revoker
yeah... he was ok. I liked Revoker as a way to pump goyf and stall D&T a bit*. That said, my local D&T guys pack upwards of 3 rips and I'd get hosed G2/G3 between taxes and rips..
*I was also desperate for ways to increase my Miracles MU, and a must answer 2-drop that turned off Balance wasn't the worst way to screw with things. Helping Sneakshow, Storm, Belcher, and Elves is a plus though! Consider him depending how heavy the combo meta is in your area as turning off Wirewood Symbiote can get your Jitte online, and Revoker with a Sword can block Crusader and move on to bigger and better things.
Side Note: I also agree that people were overvaluing Decay. It's interesting when you run into one now, as it's an actual choice. Kolaghan's is just better a lot of the time IMO, so if you can choose, why not choose the in-color 2-for-1 that can be a threat, removal, disruption, a timewalk, or even kill a BSK? Fact is, Rec Sage and QPM can win the game and Decay literally can't. In this deck, I'd consider either 2 Pulse or 2 Vindicate, and replace anything else with QPMs or Rec sages, depending if you are looking for CA or aggro
EDIT 2:
I'd agree that Tracker, between being color light and CA seems way better. Rhino does have *some* value against Strix, in that he'll give you a 9-point swing for your trouble, but Tracker will quickly dig through your deck, more quickly the shittier you draw. IMO, just run SoFaI and SoBaM to get around the blockers.
@Mega
In Esper (cheating since I get counterspells but..) I'm only (as of tonight) finally adding a couple vindicates, and it's only because having 4 plows has been biting me in my local meta. Honestly, even in Junk I'd just start running QPMs. Exalted is awesome and lets Goyf attack through Gurmags, QPM doesn't care about CMC, and can be a 3/3 when you need a threat. Decay is good, but it's mostly good against Delver, and frankly Push will do just as well or better against them since the whole point of Decay is mostly to dodge Daze at this point. If they force your Push.. seems like a fine trade [unless you lose ;)] That said.. needing GB as opposed to B can also cause you to lose between Stifles and Wastelands.
I dont think cutting decays for Judgment, vindicate, and maelstrom pulse is a good idea. A huge difference between 2 mana and 3 mana removal spells. It would make things super clunky.
Thinking of playing this at the team event in SCG Atlanta
4 Deathrite
4 Goyf
2 Scooze
3 Dark Confidant
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Grim Flayer
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Eternal Witness
3 Thoughtseize
3 Collective Brutality
3 Fatal Push
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
9 Fetches
Brutality in theory seems great. Pushed me to 11 main board removal but 6 spot discard.
I was going to comment on SFM and Plow and realized you were straight BG. Goin' crazy I see!
I think swapping a GSZ and an Edict and maybe a brutality for Decays is prudent. You're *really* weak to RiPs and a lot of your removal lacks quality IMO. Having 4 Edict effects is more than enough. it takes some pressure off of your 4-mana Arty/Enchant removal being a 1-of, while leaving it as a nice package.
I'm not sure what EWit is doing either, but I think she's in your "Go big or Go Home" slots, and I think if you went with Garruk R's there you'd have some much needed grindy potential since you lack token cards.
Personally, I'd also look for how to fit in Blossoms as those win me all kinds of matches I have no business winning, and when you're running your own goyfs it's to die for. But.. i'd have to advocate removing Bob or something, and that seems bad; or adding white; which you're obviously avoiding.
I think I'd run it 4 Thoughtseize/2 Brutality to increase the change of T1 Discard removal, T2 Power 2 drop. Your 2 slot is congested and you don't have a lot of chaff to discard early for Brutality - not counting EWitt, since that's late game recursion.
Volrath's Stronghold could be good in this build.
The build is weak to Rest in Peace but I haven't seen that card anywhere outside 2x in the board for DnT. Most everyone else just leans on Surgical.
What's your board look like? I think Blossoms would be good there, along with Dread of Night.
My thought as well on Rest in Peace. It's rarely played. I see your point on TS and Collective.
My board probably is something like:
2 Krosan Grip
2 Dread of Night
2 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
2 Surgical/Maybe something else?
2 Lost Legacy
1 Something?
Can't quite remember the last few cards at the gym right now. Is EPlague worth a slot? I really like my SB cards to be flexible.
I'm pretty big on E-Plague. Good outside of tribal for:
- TNN
- Lingering Souls
- Grixis naming Human (lol) or elemental if you draw it while you're way behind
- D&T naming Human or something, depends on board state
you get the idea. It can hit your own bobs if you name human, so consider that, but I think I've stolen a few games with it recently from Grixis and DGA by it coming out of nowhere and locking their outs/hand. It's worth mentioning that I normally run it in a tutor board though; so I have extra incentive.
That said, I also think it's fine as a 1-of, but generally not one you want to spam.
EDIT: Did you consider running a pair of Jitte? I think those would up your game as well, given the load of 2/1s you have
EDIT 2: On RiP; I can see it as a meta call; but I think a lot of Blade players happily run it as a 1 of. I do with a pair of tutors and have been Wololo-ing people on tutor boards (even in this room!), so while I am hardly exerting a large force on the legacy meta, I do notice that the Bant forum has dudes running RiPs too. disabling a DRS to get their DRS + Goyf + etc.. is a good deal. It's also personal preference that I don't like getting OHKO'd by a card; since I've been RiP'd to death too many times.
I've thought about playing Jitte. Just don't know if it was worth it. Might be fine with a dryad Arbor to fetch too. Yeah I didn't really think about my huge weakness to a resolved RIP. That wasn't nearly as bad when I was running NO because I could just get Woody
Went 3-1 to earn a bye for our next quarterly here in Atlanta with basically the above list but I have gotten Grim Flayers yet. One round was a bye because I forgot to sign up, but so far I'm 6-1 with the deck. I played a couple Doomwake Giants to top my curve rather than NO. Lack of Decaymay have been bad, but I still have liked Edict a lot.
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