[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Final Fortune]

The problem was/is the replacement and the effect ot has on red mana overall an EtWs in particular. As I have no MB EtW (again), I want to revisit the idea and durdle with the "how".

Haven't we been there, done that with TnT? I don't really see any new ground to cover.

[Togores]

If they resolve a Spell Queller then you lose the game regardless of your removal, Spell Queller is a serious problem because it's a "Vendillion Clique" that people actually use in multiples so you have to Cabal Therapy or Thoughtseize for it. Massacre is there for the rest of the hate bears that you can't afford to waste discard on like Meddling Mage and Tidehollow Sculler.

The stock of Massacre in this deck is thru the roof, I have seen enough Spell Quellers, Meddling Mages, Vendillion Cliques and Tidehollow Scullers in the past few weeks to make me think long and hard about MD Thoughtseize even.

One card I've been experimenting with is Collective Brutality, it's a bit expensive as disruption or as removal but it condenses the SB and I think it's a card Storm should really think about.

@Lemnear, 4 Meddling Mage and 3 Spell Queller MD is a common suite in UW Blade, it's not like those cards are poor vs other match ups.

I was meaning that queller is a 2/3 so it does not get killed by Massacre^^

[Lemnear]

Haven't we been there, done that with TnT? I don't really see any new ground to cover.

Which however was (and prolly is) a miserable Ad Nauseam deck as you have not only too few IMS' but red sources in general. I know that TNT is making a minor comeback atm due to the desire of people to have access to silverbullets in the current, moving metagame with plenty of possible hatebears and stuff, but the core problems of TNT which caused its vanishing 4 years ago are still not fixed.

[Bryant Cook]

I plan on being in the winners bracket where there will be exactly zero Spell Queller in Legacy.

@Lemnear, I think you definitely want ETW with no Rite of Flames. In my opinion, you max out on Chrome Mox and being a hyper aggressive ETW/Ad Nauseam deck. You lose the ability to Past in Flames, which made me reconsider Ill-Gotten Gains/Diminishing Returns (Both are bad). You can also play a 14th land if you so choose.

Although, with the fourth Chrome Mox you likely don't need a 14th land. But you could likely get away with something like 2-3 SSG.

[Lemnear]

I think you definitely want ETW with no Rite of Flames. In my opinion, you max out on Chrome Mox and being a hyper aggressive ETW/Ad Nauseam deck. You lose the ability to Past in Flames, which made me reconsider Ill-Gotten Gains/Diminishing Returns (Both are bad). You can also play a 14th land if you so choose.

Although, with the fourth Chrome Mox you likely don't need a 14th land. But you could likely get away with something like 2-3 SSG.

I actually raised my Moxcount except I try it this time with Moxen feasting on Lands rather than Spells. Trying 16 (Sol-)lands, 4 Diamond Moxen with the later also fixing colors and testwise 17 red IMS' total in the deck

[Ebonclaw]

We keep coming back over and over again to the deck's problem with generating that extra red mana reliably, and it's making me want to figure out what the best way to weasel an extra red mana source into the deck in the form of a second Volc or Badlands in place of a fetch. At some point the drawbacks of losing the fetch get outweighed by the additional utility and options having that extra R in the maindeck, and if we haven't hit that point yet, I feel like we're getting closer to it.

[Lemnear]

Extra red in terms of Wish->EtW or for stuff like Pulverize?

[Ebonclaw]

Mainly the latter. Ensuring access to RR without using disposable mana sources is important enough that I'm starting to feel like we should at least have the option to produce RR on demand (barring wasteland issues, in which case having an extra R source in the deck is still not a bad thing). Some sideboard tools are snubbed because they are dubbed unfriendly because they are difficult to sometimes wish for and cast due to intensive red mana requirements, even though the effect is highly desirable (Shattering Spree comes to mind, able to serve as efficient removal for a Sphere, or replicate itself to get around Chalice; as does the aforementioned Pulverize, which, if preferred, enables you to cast it and go off the same turn with red mana in pool, assuming you didn't just use the RR you floated to cast the Wish to begin with). The complaints with these cards hinge around the necessity of having RR available naturally- Spree is a little clunky and you're probably not going off the turn if you wish for and cast it in the same turn instead of holding it (but if you do hold it for the combo turn, it removes some artifact problems for only R and as such has little impact on the combo turn), and Pulverize can pretty much only be cast if you're going off on the same turn- great unless you don't have to natural red mana sources to sacrifice. The deck doesn't have a huge issue with generating RR on the turn we go off thanks to rite and petal and LED and such, but we find ourselves sometimes wishing we could ensure access to RR without relying on those one-shot effects in the event we're not going off that turn.
Bryant is playing Meltdown, which hasn't been in the board since the days of Silence if I recall correctly, By Force showed up in that weird list I posted, and Pulverize was more recently tested, so it's apparent that people are wanting to expend at least one slot on the artifact removal of their choice, and that's always going to have the issue of requiring RR, in addition to some other drawback/advantage. Solving the R mana problem opens up options that were previously discarded because it was too much in addition to any other drawbacks that existed. Every choice card will have some drawback- Meltdown only requires a single R source, even if it means having to wait a turn, but if generating RR wasn't an issue, I feel like Shattering Spree would get the nod for being able to handle Chalice just as efficiently, but with the added bonus of being able to answer spheres, canonists, and revokers more efficiently. Meltdown can't remove a sphere or thorn for less than 4 mana. You could also make a better argument for Pulverize, which can remove anything in the most efficient manner with the drawback of you MUST have RR naturally to cast it. We can accept a card that might be a little clunky if it's versatile enough, and we can accept a card that's fast and efficient, even if it requires sacrificing mountains, but where we take issue is when that versatile card needs RR to cast it for the desired trait of beating Chalice in addition to being clunky. We pause at Pulverize because we're not sure if we could even have two mountains to sac for it reliably. If we could reliably make RR for Shattering Spree's replicate, but also only have to pay 1R to kill a Thorn, and then on top of that be able to take down any other problems like Canonist or Revoker for a single R, does the card become an attractive enough option to warrant these changes? If you knew you could have the two mountains for Pulverize in most games, would that make you want to play it more? In addition to all of this, there is still the occasional moment when the deck, even in its current configuration, wishes it had one more red mana. It sucks knowing if you crack your fetch to get that Volc or Badlands so you can Wish for a Massacre, that the tradeoff is that you'll lose one of your two natural red mana sources to a wasteland as punishment when the game may still have several turns to go.
In any event, I feel like there has to be a tipping point where we have to stop and reevaluate our pain points and figure out if it's worth solving them, and if Storm players are looking to have that single artifact killer in the board then it might be time to do so depending on what they want to play in that slot.

[Lemnear]

I feel that the main issue is that people still refuse to run boardable artifact hate and still insist to use the Wishes to solve various permanent hate. I am not convinced that this is the way to go longterm with the current amount of hate

[Silent Requiem]

I feel that the main issue is that people still refuse to run boardable artifact hate and still insist to use the Wishes to solve various permanent hate. I am not convinced that this is the way to go longterm with the current amount of hate

At the risk of asking a stupid question in a thread with a low tolerance for stupid questions, is there any mileage in simply looking to be faster than the permanent based hate we would otherwise need to fight through?

[Lemnear]

At the risk of asking a stupid question in a thread with a low tolerance for stupid questions, is there any mileage in simply looking to be faster than the permanent based hate we would otherwise need to fight through?

We can only be as fast as the opponent allows us to be. There was a time we considered racing countertop out of Miracles, but it does not work if the opponent was able to stall us with FoW and Flusterstorm until Countertop landed. We currently (like back in 2013) have the problem that counterspells and discard are bridging the turns until Meddling Mage or Leovold hit the field, which also means a rise of cards total we have to deal with the help of discard (and/or removal). More often than not you will look at more than 1 card in your opponents hand which you care about if the game goes beyond turn 2 which is totally normal with a look at variance & Co

[Pelikanudo]

I actually raised my Moxcount except I try it this time with Moxen feasting on Lands rather than Spells. Trying 16 (Sol-)lands, 4 Diamond Moxen with the later also fixing colors and testwise 17 red IMS' total in the deck

Please could you share that list?

Apart, I' toying around with a combo deck based on Paradoxical outcome. Is there any already existing thread for a deck based on this card? the reality is that I've triyed several combinations but seems all less effective than a PiF or AN engines... the good thing is that the decks seems to be based more on insistence that disruption. I have several ideas... I hope it has more acceptance than my Dark Petition Storm Deck...

Apart, the last torunaments with TES im beeng super fine, the other day i even beat 2 eldrazis in a row... i changed a bit my recent side configuration and added back again A.D. as i really love the card as something to deal with MM and canonist and also chalices... still leaving 2 E.T. which have won me some games and adding S.E. just as a way to combat oposing Therapies and Combo and Reanimator. I am quite done with TES by now... likely the unique match up i've lost was something with 3 different angles of attack MM Threapyes and Counters, the rest of decks i just won my opinion is that Therapy is likely the card I hate more coming from my opp... need to try something different...

@Silent Reqiem: Agree, I even was fired from Facebook Group..., if you are confident with your brain, then as much as people say your questions are stupid, it will never matter to you... I wonder what would happen if my Team Work Members started to play Magic.... likely we'll create the Best MTG Team ever created...

[Ebonclaw]

I feel that the main issue is that people still refuse to run boardable artifact hate and still insist to use the Wishes to solve various permanent hate. I am not convinced that this is the way to go longterm with the current amount of hate

By "boardable" I presume you are referring to artifact hate brought into the main, and not wish targets given this context? Assuming we're not reverting back to the green splash and simply playing Abrupt Decay again, this makes Shattering Spree again a tempting option if the red mana issues were addressed as it's basically uncounterable when replicated and doesn't hurt much to get hit from Ad Nauseum. The best option without altering the mana base then becomes By Force, since it's versatile casting cost gets around Chalice without making Ad Nauseum worse. But at the current time it seems like the train of thought is to rely on Echoing Truth as the removal spell of choice to be boarded in as a temporary, but versatile option, and slotting a single dedicated piece of wishable hate. Echoing Truth doesn't kill things dead of course, but it's easy to cast without demands on red mana or adding a 4th color, beats Chalice on 1, and can bounce any problem at instant speed/EoT.

Boarding in dedicated artifact hate helps reduce the clunkiness of the wishboard solution, which is its biggest issue- you're still *probably* not going off the turn you cast it since these options tend to operate at sorcery speed though. If I were to play dedicated boardable artifact hate, I would suggest trying a pair of Shattering Spree, and either cutting a Sea or a Mire for a second Badlands.
So why not just use Echoing Truth? Don't you just bounce the problem EoT and win?
Well yes, that's its advantage in addition to its versatility. But dedicated artifact hate also offers its own advantages. I'm going to reference Shattering Spree for this example:

It's *basically* uncounterable when replicated.
It can beat Chalice on 0, 1, or 2.
It hurts less than ET to flip to Ad Nauseum.
It's cheaper than Echoing Truth is to get rid of a Thorn or Sphere, and cheaper when aimed at anything else
It's capable of taking out multiple targets without accidentally catching your own Moxen or LEDs in the crossfire (Meltdown)

By Force is basically trading some of these benefits (uncounterability is the biggest one, along with a slightly higher CC to blow up a single target) in exchange for easier mana. If we can make the mana work, Shattering Spree becomes the best card to fill this role IMO, if one were to try it out.

[Lemnear]

By "boardable" I presume you are referring to artifact hate brought into the main, and not wish targets given this context?

For the postboard games, indeed. We recently make big waves about solutions for permanents of all kind you can wish for, but seem to refuse to board some stuff to remove common issues. Using Wishes is possible, but costs plenty of mana (potential issue!) and wastes business spells you need for winning

[Ebonclaw]

For the postboard games, indeed. We recently make big waves about solutions for permanents of all kind you can wish for, but seem to refuse to board some stuff to remove common issues. Using Wishes is possible, but costs plenty of mana (potential issue!) and wastes business spells you need for winning

You play more routinely and more competitively than myself, so what suggestions do you have in this vein? Shattering Spree + an adjusted manabase to play an extra R source? Keeping the green and continuing to play Abrupt Decay? By Force/Meltdown? Or the all purpose Echoing Truth or something else? Ethersworn Canonist has been making some waves lately, and the number of artifact based hate continues to go up. Which is fine, it's not any more or less problematic than a Chalice or Sphere, so the same tools we use to answer those can probably handle canonist. Massacre and Grapeshot already exist as "clunky" options for Canonist in addition to fulfilling other roles, but that's certainly no reason not to hone in on the suggestion of cards to bring into the MB that are also capable of hitting canonist in addition to their designated hate targets.

[Final Fortune]

Shattering Spree is bad because of the RR mana cost, personally I think Meltdown is the best artifact destruction spell because it can destroy a Sphere of Resistance for only 3 mana, but I don't see how SBing in Meltdowns is any better than SBing in Hurkyl's Recall. There really isn't a reason to expose a Volcanic Island to a Wasteland for artifact destruction over bounce, so I'm not sure what Lemnear is on about. Even Pulverize with a third /r land is really inconsistent vs Wasteland.

[Pelikanudo]

related Shattering Spree, I've been added back it recently and among all existing artifact destruction and evaluating the odds of having to face several combinations of artifact hate I love SS the most, sure I have also in mind my manabase... the card I decided to leave is V.S. as I see in deed no applications currently for it and if needed i have E.T. for postboard games, but only time will tell if leaving V.S. was wrong... really dont remeber recently any need of B.W. > V.S. to Iona on B... as example.

EDIT: I also prefer instant A.Hate for post board games. I'l stick on 2 E.T. 2 A.D. by the moment, the thing I found vs some UWXControl is that they are also incrementing Combo Permanent hate, then A.D. plus SS OR GS in side becomes relevant...

@Lemnear, again, please could you share that M.D./SolLands List, I'll promise I'll respect it.
@F.F.: maybe i miss something but meltdow will destroy SoR by 4 total mana rigth?

[Lemnear]

You play more routinely and more competitively than myself, so what suggestions do you have in this vein? Shattering Spree + an adjusted manabase to play an extra R source? Keeping the green and continuing to play Abrupt Decay? By Force/Meltdown? Or the all purpose Echoing Truth or something else?

For the moment Echoing Truth is the best "catch" all which can even ramp up storm. Given the fact that it doubles as Artifact & Creature removal, I think the occasional 1-2 in SBs are not enough atm to deal with all the hate. We sure can use the sweepers a la Massacre/Meltdown in the SB, but we can't mainly rely on those in SB games. With Hour of Devastation we get Abrade as a tool which may can replace E.T. as it kills artifacts/creatures instead of just bouncing.

P.S. I don't play "routinely and more competitively" atm, thus the testing for my current experimental list hasn't left the goldfishing phase. I will come back to it once I have more time.

[Ebonclaw]

Well, at the very least you have more experience in competitive environments than myself and even if the competitive environment has shifted while you goldfish, it stands to reason your experience would lead you to make better educated guesses if you had to take a deck to an event tomorrow. To that end, I'm really liking Abrade as well. Artifacts, and creatures (including Leovold) both die to it, and it beats Chalice on 1, making it a more universal answer than Shattering Spree and without the need to have RR online. Even if the manabase gets tweaked by adding another R source, making them both available in a world of wastelands and ports can still result in supporting Shattering Spree problematic. I'm thinking that 3 Abrades is a good place to start when we are looking to replace AD.

I'd also like to point out how incredibly useful Massacre continues to be, even moreso now that stoneblade decks with snapcaster and TNN in addition to Clique are being played- it's not just good against D&T, which is *finally* seeming to be on the downtrend.

[tescrin]

I'd also like to point out how incredibly useful Massacre continues to be, even moreso now that stoneblade decks with snapcaster and TNN in addition to Clique are being played- it's not just good against D&T, which is *finally* seeming to be on the downtrend.

I remember when D&T first started being a thing. Part of what's so strange was that I watched it take share from Jund of all things as it grew. Jund was a thing (like 16+%), Storm was a thing, something else happened (I think Shardless) and then BAM D&T was a thing. That was some time ago.