[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[fangzie]

why everyone thinks that empty is good vs delver? yes, if you can make 10-12 goblins on turn 2 it's ok. But under discards, daze, pierce, force, it's not so easy to have an early storming. If they have pyromancer in play, they can throw spells just to make tokens to block. I lost against an opponent with 10 goblins in play and against a lonely pyromancer.

It's good for exactly those situations where you can hit early game 5-6 storm. Much like ad nauseam, it's a win con that typically gets worse the longer the game goes but is great if you can fire it off early. Noone said it was as easy as that, and I don't think most people here would say it's their preferred win con, but the games where is good, it's great. This can also mean being careful about when you use it, or in cases like your pyro example, using it as part of a secondary strategy to put you in a position where a small tendrils will close out the game

[Scott]

why everyone thinks that empty is good vs delver? yes, if you can make 10-12 goblins on turn 2 it's ok. But under discards, daze, pierce, force, it's not so easy to have an early storming. If they have pyromancer in play, they can throw spells just to make tokens to block. I lost against an opponent with 10 goblins in play and against a lonely pyromancer, bringing him to 1 life point and loosing against a gurmag. Other situation, 14 goblins, against delver/delver/DRS/gurmag/pyromancer, opponent with no cards in hand.

I'll keep EtW if I am on the play vs grixis, and just for eldrazi. I was thinking to have them MD (I have to replace a mox), but at this point I'll insert a fatal push: low cmc for nausea, it's an out against eidolon/thalia/leovold/gaddock, 1 more slot in the SB. Basically it's the md decay slot for people who play green.

The most recent Brainstorm Show episode actually spends a lot of time talking about the value of EtW, including against Delver. I don't play Storm but I still found it informative.

[Narcind]

Some guys prematurely cut green causing more guys to follow the herd. Made no sense to me since Decay is the cleanest way to get rid of permanents having still a wide range of relevant targets in a post-CB/top-meta. Xantid is not
an issue here since it's not really needed but can be a solid option.

I'm a bit late to the discussion, and I've not been playing that much since the ban, but I've tried builds with 2 basics and 2 green duals, to going all the way up to 4 basics and no green at all, and I think that it really depends on what decks you're expecting to play against. Having access to more basics is just so nice vs delver and dnt, but not getting to play decay or swarm really sucks in some matchups too, but as for right now, I'm liking playing more than 2 basics, though 4 might be a bit overkill.

[Morden]

It's good for exactly those situations where you can hit early game 5-6 storm. Much like ad nauseam, it's a win con that typically gets worse the longer the game goes but is great if you can fire it off early. Noone said it was as easy as that, and I don't think most people here would say it's their preferred win con, but the games where is good, it's great. This can also mean being careful about when you use it, or in cases like your pyro example, using it as part of a secondary strategy to put you in a position where a small tendrils will close out the game

I agree in general. I still consider etw more fragile than nauseam, so I'll keep it in the sb. It doesn't fit well in the deck, I think it's a card for TES.

[Morden]

The most recent Brainstorm Show episode actually spends a lot of time talking about the value of EtW, including against Delver. I don't play Storm but I still found it informative.

interesting. I agree on a lot of things, but I think they overstimated EtW when they talk about "turn 1 kill". A reliable analysis of this deck should be done around turn 3 ( 2-3-4, gaussian function around 3 let's say ). Maybe I'm just a unlucky guy, but my turn 1 is generally "island-ponder" XD, or discard if I have more than 1 in hand.

[Ronald Deuce]

I, for one, continue to find myself in situations in which Empty will only yield 8–10 dudes, which often fails to do the job, or I'm playing toward an Empty and I gather enough Storm to use Tendrils instead.

Definitely an important card to have around, but I've completely reversed my position from the way I felt about it initially. I don't think it's something we want in the main.

[Scott]

Hoping to get some insider information. How scary is Rule of Law for the deck, against an Enchantress type deck with protection like Sterling Grove and no counterspells?

I'm vacillating between its numbers in the sideboard, and I'm unsure how much harder it is for Storm decks to work out of, compared to other tutor options, like Rest in Peace and Nevermore, as I'm tempted to cut it given its more narrow application (and higher mana cost than RiP), if it's not a bomb.

[Milo687]

Hoping to get some insider information. How scary is Rule of Law for the deck, against an Enchantress type deck with protection like Sterling Grove and no counterspells?

I'm vacillating between its numbers in the sideboard, and I'm unsure how much harder it is for Storm decks to work out of, compared to other tutor options, like Rest in Peace and Nevermore, as I'm tempted to cut it given its more narrow application (and higher mana cost than RiP), if it's not a bomb.

Doesn't this card stop your deck as well? Also we have 6-7 discard spells that all hit rule before you can play it. Wouldn't Leyline of Sanctity be a better catch all for Enchantress but that is probably a discussion for the Enchantress board.

[Scott]

Doesn't this card stop your deck as well? Also we have 6-7 discard spells that all hit rule before you can play it. Wouldn't Leyline of Sanctity be a better catch all for Enchantress but that is probably a discussion for the Enchantress board.

In traditional engine-driven Enchantress, it would be a bad inclusion. This is a Rest in Peace/Energy Field/Helm of Obedience/Enlightened Tutor/A+B/fewer draw effects type of Enchantress, so isn't too bothered by Rule of Law effects.

I have Leylines which help, but obviously aren't auto-wins. Discard often wouldn't be relevant, because it would be a 1-of that would get tutored to the top of my deck (Leylines also mitigate discard), assuming I haven't died yet.

As one example, is a.) Leyline, and then E. Tutor into a turn 3--sometimes turn 2--Rule of Law significantly harder for you to deal with than b.) Leyline, and then E. Tutor into a turn 2 RiP/Sterling Grove? I don't mind sticking a more narrow/slower card silver bullet in the SB if it's my trump card, but if it's not super hateful against storm and I might as well tutor for something like RiP, I'll probably cut it. I just don't have the storm experience to know how much more disruptive than RiP, etc. it is. Thanks!

[thefringthing]

Rule of Law is probably acceptable as a split with Rest In Peace. Grixis ANT lists will have twoish ways to remove it postboard, 4-Colour lists will have up to fourish. Coming down on turn three is a little slow especially in a non-blue deck (basically always safe to just jam so we can go off a little faster without sweating) and the point about it being Duressed is reasonable.

I'm pretty sour on Empty the Warrens right now too. I think it's worth having in the sideboard just because it's good against Grixis Delver, but with the number of Golgari Charms, Toxic Deluges, Staticasters, Engineered Explosives, etc. seeing play in sideboards I'm not very inclined to board it in against almost anything else. Even stuff with no cheap sweepers like Eldrazi can just race it a startling percentage of the time.

Has anyone tried out Surfinbird's new sideboard? (1x By Force, 1x Hurkyl's Recall, 1x Culling Scales) I'm interested in thoughts as I finalize my GP list.

[Ronald Deuce]

Rule of Law is excellent against Storm, but it also hurts your own plan, and most of my sideboard hate is directed against permanents anyway. I'm probably in the minority on that, but I'm not sure it's what you would want.

Thefringthing, keep in mind that decks with no sweepers are extremely vulnerable to a fast Empty. Death and Taxes, (sometimes) Maverick, and most non-Elf tribal decks are all good matchups to bring in Empty. Might also apply to a number of non-red Stompy strategies, though the only one I've played against is Eldrazi, which goes poorly more often than not anyway.

That sideboard sounds pretty cool, but I feel like I'd still rather have them all be Hurkyl's Recall. Maybe I'd keep the Culling Scales; I haven't tested the card yet.

[thefringthing]

Thefringthing, keep in mind that decks with no sweepers are extremely vulnerable to a fast Empty. Death and Taxes, (sometimes) Maverick, and most non-Elf tribal decks are all good matchups to bring in Empty. Might also apply to a number of non-red Stompy strategies, though the only one I've played against is Eldrazi, which goes poorly more often than not anyway.

That sideboard sounds pretty cool, but I feel like I'd still rather have them all be Hurkyl's Recall. Maybe I'd keep the Culling Scales; I haven't tested the card yet.

I never bring in Empty the Warrens against Death & Taxes; it's too tough to make one big enough fast enough that it doesn't get raced by Stoneforge Mystic.

[MrFrowny_]

I never bring in Empty the Warrens against Death & Taxes; it's too tough to make one big enough fast enough that it doesn't get raced by Stoneforge Mystic.

I would say that it's better to race just the Stoneforge Mystic than waiting longer just to get taxed out of the game by Thalia, Revoker, Prelate, etc...

[Dr_D]

I never bring in Empty the Warrens against Death & Taxes; it's too tough to make one big enough fast enough that it doesn't get raced by Stoneforge Mystic.

They have to spend a turn casting stoneforge, which means that they didn't play a hatebear, which means your cantrips are live. Assuming you kept a hand that wanted to empty early, it's not unreasonable that you've been able to find a therapy as well or can in the turn they give you after casting stoneforge (depending on when you empty of course). Unless you mulled to oblivion, a lot of the time your empty will be either big enough to race the stoneforge or you'll be left with cards to find an answer while your goblins win. I've played this particular matchup countless times, and never have a problem beating them with empty.

I'm wondering why there is so much discussion about culling scales? I mean, it still seems okayish, but if you're just considering it now, you missed the boat. It was much better in my opinion when we had top to keep it up indefinitely.

[TokugawaEdo]

They have to spend a turn casting stoneforge, which means that they didn't play a hatebear, which means your cantrips are live. Assuming you kept a hand that wanted to empty early, it's not unreasonable that you've been able to find a therapy as well or can in the turn they give you after casting stoneforge (depending on when you empty of course). Unless you mulled to oblivion, a lot of the time your empty will be either big enough to race the stoneforge or you'll be left with cards to find an answer while your goblins win. I've played this particular matchup countless times, and never have a problem beating them with empty.

Empty is a great turn on strat vs DnT. 10 goblins on the play and 12 on the draw beats stoneforge. Not to hard to storm 4 or 5 turn 1. I don't actually keep any of my discard in atm but maybe some number of therapies is correct. I just prefer more permanent based card like chain and massacre.

[fangzie]

I never bring in Empty the Warrens against Death & Taxes; it's too tough to make one big enough fast enough that it doesn't get raced by Stoneforge Mystic.

It's really quite easy to race Stoneforge if you can empty before they play it. Even easier if you manage to bin a therapy along the way. It's mostly easy because if you get off a fast empty, you reduce their relevant cards to exactly Stoneforge, and for anyone trying to be a little bit too cute, Orzhov Pontiff

[Cfetchcaviar]

Could one of y'all explain the sideboarding strategy of culling scales? Are you trying to deploy it against delvers? DNT?

[TokugawaEdo]

Could one of y'all explain the sideboarding strategy of culling scales? Are you trying to deploy it against delvers? DNT?

When I played it, it was for slow permanent based hate decks, primarily aggro loam and DnT. I also had tops so I could run scales out whenever and as early as possible which was the key. It would wipe their board and when done, instead of targeting itself, you could play top and have it target top. Then draw with top and repeat. Your opponent would never be able to play a permanent giving you extended value past wiping the board and as much time as needed to kill. Without top scales just seems like an expensive and slow massacre vs DnT and a mediocre card vs loam. Without top the cards worth is based on the timing it is played, too early and I don't believe it will kill enough to justify its slow nature and 3 mana cost, while too late and it will not be able to deal with the number of permanents in play before you just die to them. The window where it is a good time to play it seems either too small or just non existent to warrant playing it. I believe it is better to go with more efficient and stream lined SB cards especially now that we have the space.

[Cfetchcaviar]

When I played it, it was for slow permanent based hate decks, primarily aggro loam and DnT. I also had tops so I could run scales out whenever and as early as possible which was the key. It would wipe their board and when done, instead of targeting itself, you could play top and have it target top. Then draw with top and repeat. Your opponent would never be able to play a permanent giving you extended value past wiping the board and as much time as needed to kill. Without top scales just seems like an expensive and slow massacre vs DnT and a mediocre card vs loam. Without top the cards worth is based on the timing it is played, too early and I don't believe it will kill enough to justify its slow nature and 3 mana cost, while too late and it will not be able to deal with the number of permanents in play before you just die to them. The window where it is a good time to play it seems either too small or just non existent to warrant playing it. I believe it is better to go with more efficient and stream lined SB cards especially now that we have the space.

TY for the reply

[icedagger]

Hi everyone,

I recently found myself in this situation and was hoping somebody could help me with figuring out the probabilities:

I am down to 4 life. Opponent will attack for lethal next turn.
Past in Flames resolved and exiled.
My opponent and I are hellbent.
I have one blue mana floating. No other untapped sources of mana.
In my graveyard, I have one of each cantrip (gitaxian probe, ponder, preordain, and brainstorm), two dark rituals, two LEDs and several fetchlands. No tutors or other business spells.
Opponent has no meaningful interaction left.
I have made my land drop for the turn.

I realized that the only way for me to win was to find a lotus petal and Tendrils with my probe along with one of my other cantrips. Given that I have no knowledge of what's on top of my library, what sequence of cantrips will give me the highest chance of finding the cards that I need to win?