4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Woodland Bellower
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Nissa, Vital Force
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
2 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Painful Truths
2 Pulse of Murasa
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Recoil
Been tuning this online for a while for a IRL friend who wants to play Nic Fit but doesn't have jund cards (or sneaks etc). I'm actually really happy with it and would consider it close to Sneak in power level, and probably would consider playing it in paper events if I still owned blue duals and the meta appeared better for it as compared to Sneak. It's extremely consistent, although it does have times where it floods or screws like any other deck. It's definitely resilient, though.
I'll be making a large theory post tomorrow with thoughts on Nic Fit as a whole across multiple colors and archetypes -- I've been tinkering and tuning a lot on mtgo recently, although I haven't been able to stream due to living conditions being busy, but I've got a lot of things to say....after I sleep.
You can probably tell some of what I'm thinking from the way this list is built, though.
I will note that the 2nd Painful Truths in the board is a floater and I'm not sure what I want it to be yet. It's chilling as Painful #2 until I figure it out.
Last edited by Arianrhod; 06-20-2017 at 11:19 AM.
@Arianrhod: Looking forward to that!
@joXerus: To chime in on Brael - Reclamation Sage. I think you'd be better off w/ Qasali Pridemage in that particular slot. @Reclamation Sage-mana you can cast QPM through Daze (and still activate it), and it plays incredibly well w/ Meren. You said you tend to board out Meren a lot. The thing is, you do have to facilitate Meren a little bit to ensure she actually is any good. QPM is a good tool in that regard. Another is Dryad Arbor. Your manabase is fairly large, so you could shave off a land to support Arbor (which, for deck building purposes, should not be viewed as a land card but just as a creature card). Since you can GSZ for it w/ X = 0 it gives you more ways to reach 3 mana on T2, which is important especially when dealing w/ fast combo decks. Swap another land for Volrath's Stronghold and you can also use Arbor w/ Courser of Kruphix & Stronghold to perma-block 1 opposing creature. 1 Arbor, a lot of possibilities.
This kinda illustrates how I like to view my Junk Fit list - everything is connected, all pieces interlock. The individual pieces might not be that impressive, but through a lot of little intricacies you can pull of some pretty awesome plays.
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
I just lost 2 hours of work because my browser apparently logged me out of Source while I was typing it up. Very angry, will try to reconstruct at least the most important bits as a high-level summary at some point later today or tomorrow. Fuck that.
Going back on page sometimes recovers it when it happens, nonetheless i learned to copy paste everything in memory before submitting based on passed experience. Same goes for Ctrl+S.
Since the loss of SDT i haven't really been able to construct anything that is interesting enough to keep Developing.
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
I'm competing in the quarterly in Rotterdam this sunday. Mayhaps I can provide some inspiration afterwards.
SE can always use more eyes. The loss of SDT didn't hurt consistency at all (it's arguable if it ever wanted SDT in the first place). And the deck does well enough, I definitely have a very positive win rate with it.
What are you going to end up playing?
4 Rhino's... Hahaha
What is the current status of SE?
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
It's good, and it's playable. Slightly worse against Delver than the typical Nic Fit build, but it's still winnable. Better against combo than many variations, better against prison too. I have a positive record against Storm actually (though luck has been on my side some). Positive against Miracles. It's closer to 50/50 across the board rather than a bunch of good and a bunch of bad. Though I will say Elves is near unwinnable.
I'll be playing all the Rhinos. Here's my current 75:
Main:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Vizier of the Menagerie
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy
I'm very much aiming for the synergy angle here, looking to outmanoeuvre opponents and overpower them with some form of inevitability.
I decided to finally add that damn Stronghold b/c it can create some nice value w/ Courser of Kruphix (thank you, Dryad Arbor) and Vizier of the Menagerie. Maybe I want to include a Diabolic Intent in there somewhere, I don't know.
I'd play an equipment before I put in an Intent. You're playing Arbor, and Rhino has trample, so you have a ton of good carriers for a Sword or a Jitte and it gives you a lot of inevitability.
You're awesome.
I have some Grafted Wargears lying around. It's easy to suit up and allows me to keep spending my mana on the mana hungry engines. Question is though - what to cut. Dammit.
How about Sword of Vengeance.
Anyway, where can i find the latest iteration of SE?
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Based on your latest decklist I would cut either the 3rd DRS or the 3rd Mirri's Guile
I'm starting to think that w/ Guile replacing Top a Deed might be the right cut if I were to run an equipment. Stifle is seeing some more play and it doesn't really help vs. Gurmag Angler.
I posted my list a few posts ago, a BG version atleast, I've got a Junk version too and a Rhino version. Which are you interested in? Or do you want to see them all?
Alright, letás try this again.
First: I still firmly believe that Nic Fit has retained much of its tier 1.5 status in the Topless world, both due to internal adjustments and also due to the shifting metagame, which has resulted in an overall net positive for us. Lots of delver and stoneblade, which, after some adjustments, is a positive matchup.
The struggles I had with various builds vs stoneblade and czech pile inform a lot of my opinions, since those are decks that we should be fundamentally good against, I believe. Our position in the format is as âreigning fair deck,ă and I intend to stay in that position, with the upsides and downsides it endorses (downsides which I have long since accepted and am okay with, such as just usually insta-losing to belcher).
With that said, onward:
Colors
White
I very strongly despise Rhinoás positioning at the moment. Most of this is because of how the metagame has developed. Grixis, the lead Delver deck, as well as BUG, the second-runner, has Fatal Push, which allows them to actually have a removal spell for Rhino and thus not need to Force it. They also have Gurmag and, increasingly, Tombstalker, which can just ignore it. Stoneblade and Neo-miracles are running upwards of 4x Snapcaster with 4x StP and frequently a Councilás Judgment. They can also just ignore Rhino, let it resolve, sure you have a 4-mana Drain-3, and then nuke it and go on with their day.
This is problematic because Rhino isnát the card that wins you those matchups usually...or if it does, it comes after a long period of time when both players resources are drained (although the blue control decks arenát losing resources as quickly as they used to due to deeper snapcaster usage). You need Deed or Deluge to X-for-1 Delver and reset the board to a favorable position (I am aware of Deedás problems vs delve creatures, but you can usually answer those in other methods, like going bigger than them). You need planeswalkers like Nissa VF to help keep up with Jace vs Blade/Miracles/Czech, or some other kind of value engine. All of these things, the blue deck will now have Force for where they wouldnát have before, because Rhino is no longer sufficiently a threat to these decks.
I think that white builds going forward need to look increasingly towards Stoneforge options (more on this later, it has to do with Tracker), or towards superfriends with a pile of Lilianas, Gideons, and Nissas and a skeleton crew of GSZ targets, mostly ramp and recursion based. I donát have the resources to test either of those things on MTGO due to cost (Liliana, Last Hope is like 45 tix apiece, screw that). This is just my impressions.
Red
Redás strength comes from several places:
-) Powerful sideboard options, including best-in-class Pyroblast and Blood Moon
-) Linear, efficient gameplans (Sneak and Scape)
-) Very strong spell suite that generates +CA including PFire and Kommand
-) Chandra, Torch of Defiance, âShe Who Can Keep Up With Jaceă
That being said, it does still have its weaknesses as well, in particular a severe lack of effective storm hate (despite being the best Nic Fit maindeck in the matchup), and, even with all of the extra measures Iáve taken to prevent it, sometimes it does just flood out and die.
Blue
This brings me to blue. As I posted recently, Iáve been working on a BUG list online for a while now. Blue obviously gets to run Jaces and Brainstorms of its own, and Baleful Strix is actually very relevant for a couple of reasons. Experimenting with BUG also led me to rediscovering Stryfoás Pulse of Murasa tech from a couple of months ago -- something which I disagreed with at the time because I viewed Top as sufficient, but is essentially a Kommand for non-red now, which is an effect that weáve badly been wanting. Pulse also does help BUG, in particular, with its historically atrocious burn matchup.
The challenge with BUG, historically, has always been its inability to win games. To that end, I built the deck with a pair of Nissa, Vital Force, and also a Woodland Bellower, poached from Sneak. Bellower has overperformed to hell and back. The deck grinds away as it is wont to do, and then mid-late it slams Bellower on an empty field, and suddenly youáve got two bodies in play and probably a very powerful card in your hand (assuming you get Eternal Witness, which is its default mode). Tracker and Finks are both also strong situationally, though, as it Ooze. Bellower represents a tremendous advantage in this deck, and in fact I would be willing to argue that Bellower is sufficiently powerful in our style of deck that most Nic Fits should be running this card.
Cards
-) Tracker
Letás talk Tracker. Some of us have been underwhelmed by this guy, some blown away. I think the difference comes down to how you build the rest of your deck. For example, in the BUG deck, heás been great. I think a lot of this is owed to Strix -- people use removal on Strixes an awful lot, for various reasons (not wanting me to flashback a therapy for free, not wanting it to trade with their delver/gurmag/goyf/whatever), which opens a door for Tracker to get in unmolested and start doing his thing. In addition, BUG has sufficient card flow to ensure that you continue to combo land drop + Tracker, whereas white and red can run out of lands to play, which neuters his effectiveness.
I think this means that if you build white with Stoneforges, in particular, Tracker will perform well there -- even more so if you have Crop Rot ala Brael or even Knight of the Reliquary, which is a card weáve discussed before and may once again with the GSZ-able Crucible guy happens. I think this also means that Tracker is probably not good enough for Jund builds, unless youáre doing something odd with it.
-) Bellower
Iáve already touched on this above, but I want to re-emphasize that I believe Bellower to be the default 6-drop moving forward, especially in double Witness builds (which I also strongly endorse). He doesnát lose in combat to anything unequipped barring reanimator/show and tell. He can even beat large Goyfs by grabbing Witness for removal or grabbing Ooze to om nom nom. Aside from winning combat, he also generates a ton of card advantage, especially for the typical game state he lands in, where he very frequently just takes over the game.
-) Kommand / Pulse
Iáve boasted about Kommand a lot already, but I want to talk about Pulse of Murasa a little bit. Itás great even with as many Deathrite Shamans as there are -- the Deathrite player never misses a chance to drain you for 2 EoT, which allows you to respond with Pulse to gain 6 and grab a land if youáve been denied or a bomb if you need gas. Plus, thereás a lot of removal in most of my modern Nic Fit lists. Iáve moved to a regime with 4-6 spot removal options and 3-4 sweepers maindeck to maximize the number of draw steps that we see and also to keep Deathrite under control, since Iám leaning on recursion more for card advantage.
I do believe that Kommand is better than Pulse when given the option to run either, but I donát think the gap is that large.
-) Dryad Arbor
Arbor is fine if youáre on Intent, but otherwise Iám still kind of soft on it. I have been impressed by the number of utility functions that Iáve found for the card -- surprise blocking, fetching for Therapy flashback, EoT making a 1/1 to hit a planeswalker with....all of these things have come up. I know Sam has had success Zenith for 0, but for me, I tend to lose games I Zenith for 0. It feels like throwing away a Zenith, which is usually one of our best cards. I hate having Arbor in my hand. I absolutely detest it. I would rather just not play it than have it in my hand. When itás in the deck, though, itás fine. With Intent, I think itás a necessary evil, and Intent is really good in Sneak, so Iám begrudgingly fine with it.
I mostly just want to caution against Dryad Arbor being too highly regarded. Itás fine in some builds, it serves a purpose, but you really need to have that purpose in mind before putting it in your deck.
-) Lost Legacy
Not a fan anymore. The combo decks have diversified themselves too much. It might be different for Brael with his 4x copies and Deathrites to help achieve LL on turn 2, but for me with a pair of them and no Deathrites, itás not good enough. Storm is running Empty and Tendrils main, and donát even get me started on OmniSneakShowBreachTell.
-) Deathrite
Speaking of this guy, I still donát like it -- but Iáve refocused on the narrative of being a Pernicious Deed control deck, as opposed to being a midrange value deck. I was only ever running 1 or at most 2 copies, and we are ill equipped to fight against Delver or Deathblade -- decks that are literally built, ground up, to fight and win against other Deathrite Shaman decks. They have the selection, removal, and tempo to effectively fight opposing Shamans. We donát...or at least, I am unwilling to take the steps necessary to change that.
-) Surgical Extraction
Just wanted to note that I board these in against any deck with Snapcaster Mage nowadays. Blue fair decks have learned the same lesson that we have about recursion being powerful card advantage in the current meta, and are leaning heavily on Snapcaster Mage to double up on counters and removal. Fighting their Snapcasters effectively is very important. Deathrite doesnát get the job done, and even Ooze is questionable -- you can eat a bunch of stuff before he dies, but you usually canát get everything. Deathrite is embarassing at fighting Snapcaster in the midgame because heáll die to Snap+removal before he becomes active. Surgical being a ŕfreeá spell is very, very strong here.
-) Intent / Whisper / Truths
These cards arenát the kinds of x-for-1s that weáre usually in the market for, although I do like boarding a pair of Truths (more on this later). This mostly has to do with resource economy. We are using our life total as a resource pool, especially in combination with a large amount of removal. We want to keep ourselves healthy to ensure that we have draw steps. We want to maintain our board presence -- plus there arenát actually a ton of creatures that are great sac fodder for Intent: basically Arbor, Vets, Witnesses, and Zeniths. Otherwise you -can- sacrifice creatures, but itás at a loss. Maybe Lingering Souls is an option for white builds to get around this? Either way, while the theory behind these cards is right, I am not convinced that the execution is.
Matchups
Grixis Delver, BUG Delver, Stoneblade (Bant and Esper) -- lumping these together to save time. All of these are our matchups to lose with my current lists. I think Iám at something like 80% vs Grixis Delver -- not a bye, certainly, but very favored. Target their Force of Wills with your Therapies, as itás their only effective way of stopping us from just having our way with them now. With Sneak, I sideboard out my Sneaks and Emrakul in these matchups and just go full control.
Czech Pile -- This matchup is really close and fun and interactive, with my current lists. Again, not talking about white builds here, because I couldnát make that work. But with Sneak and BUG, we can actually grind effectively against most of their draws. This only happened after a lot of work, though -- earlier lists just got smashed. Also, there is a lot of variance in this matchup due to intricacies of both our list -and- their list: most Czech Pile lists are rather different from one another.
Death and Taxes -- Depends on the build somewhat. The Eldrazi version is hardest for us -- maindeck Containment Priest is an asshole, Ancient Tomb speeds them up tremendously sometimes, especially with like equipping dudes, and they almost always have Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in the board, who is a pain in the ass to deal with. They also generally have the highest number of Revokers. The red version is much worse against us, but you do need to watch out for Pia & Kiran + Karakas, which forms a really obnoxious engine. The mono-white traditional build is easy with the exception of them landing a Mirran Crusader when you arenát prepared for it.
Neo-Miracles -- This has actually been fine for my current lists, once I refocused on the narrative of card advantage and recursion. I think Iáve only lost to this deck once, by a particularly aggressive player who targeted me with every Portent and Predict, and I couldnát get through his constant fucking with my deck. Every other Miracles player has targeted himself with these spells and I believe Iáve beaten all of them in the last week or two. Note that that means Sneak and BUG. White builds had a horrible matchup here.
Storm -- The combo deck du jour at the moment. White has the best sideboard by a mile for this deck, with Kambal, in particular, being a hilariously unreasonable card. Red has the worst, but has the best maindeck gameplan to compensate. Blue is in the middle on both.
Elves -- This is still largely awful. Itás winnable depending on your list, and Iáve actually beaten it a couple times with the BUG build, but I still hate this deck and I always will. Note that they frequently have Progenitus in the sideboard for Natural Order, which is a severe problem for most decks, unless you can manuever the game state into a place where you can race him if he swings.
Thereás a bunch of other stuff that Iáve played against but theyáre all like 1-of or 2-of decks that I donát feel like going into.
Summary / Closing Thoughts
Nic Fit in general needs to check off the following boxes at the moment:
-) Keep up with Jace TMS, usually through a planeswalker engine of your own. BUG, Jace of your own; Jund, Chandra; white....who knows? Kaya isnát good enough, since he has to downtick for advantage.
-) Be able to load up on 2-for-1s, in particular through a second Witness, a Bellower, and Kommand and/or Pulse of Murasa. Strix is also great, as is Punishing Fire. Tracker isnát a cure-all for this problem. This is especially important when fighting against a wall of counterspells and Snapcasters -- they need to have too many threats to counter. We need to overload them with value until they begin to fall behind, and then land a haymaker to push through. Once the fair blue decks are on their back foot, itás incredibly hard for them to claw back, Iáve found.
-) Have an effective sideboard. This shouldnát need to be said, but, here we are. The format is actually fairly open at the moment, and you need to be able to answer a lot of strange things. Universal answers are great -- look at Jund: Pyroblast universally answers a whole mess of stuff, and Blood Moon solves Merit Lage while also nuking nonbasic heavy decks from orbit. If red had an effective way of hating out Storm, Iád be much happier, but itás hard to have literally everything. This is why Iám running the 2 Negate 1 Invasive 1 Dispel package in the BUG sideboard -- you have coverage against basically anything with that. In addition, you canát ignore the the fair decks the way we used to. I typically have 2 Painful Truths in the board specifically for grindy matchups, along with anything else I would otherwise board in.
-) I haven't been able to stream much due to my living conditions being busy / loud recently. I'll be on vacation next week, returning July 1, and hope to stream a bit more once I get home. I should still be able to post a bit next week, going to take my laptop with me. We will see.
Hope that helps, there's my thoughts. It's not quite as good as the one I had written originally, but it's close enough.
Junk preferably. I like the idea of staking low to the ground and the addition of hatebears, Plow and ultimately Sigarda.
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
I got back after a longer magic hiatus. Top got banned and although I'm happy miracles is kinda gone I really am sad about the loss.
This is my updated list. If somebody could update me on the noteworthy cards added in the last month (tireless tracker addition is about when i stopped playing) i would be grateful.
Ideas about the deck:
- I like the landbase. Though two bayous could bring a bit more flexibility in tight spots I like the added the lategame veteran explorer/tireless tracker synergy which would normally loose it's steam a lot earlier. Also wasteland seems to be everywhere now.
- I cut the Witness mostly because this card never really felt satisfying. Mostly it felt like a "lose more slowly"-card. Using my graveyard as a resource for drs and tombstalker (which is a nice, cheap bomb through delve) seems much more valuable.
- Mirri's guile is awesome with sdt gone. I feel like I need card selection more than I need card advantage (which is provided through tracker if need be). The occasional wipe with deed is probably a nombo but neglectable in my opinion.
- Most problematic decks are for me: 12post, lands and show and tell decks. 12post is probably unwinnable in any case (maybe if jesus came down from heaven to help) but with lands i don't know exactly. I would happily take suggestions.
- My sideboard is mainly tailored towards stuff i hate the most. I'd be happy about suggestions.
- Nissa is just sick.
Thanks in advance!
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Tombstalker
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Mirri's Guile
1 Nissa, Vital Force
SB:
1 Containment Priest
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Lost Legacy
2 Pithing Needle
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
SE mostly gives up on Sigarda because you're focusing more on card velocity rather than quality. Sigarda is good when you have few threats and need to ensure something survives. It's less good when you can go wide and overload your opponents ability to answer threats. It's still not bad in that situation, but playing Sigarda is a big tempo hit when you could otherwise use 5 mana on playing two cards.
Here's a SFM list I've been tinkering with, you might like it. I've only played it in paper a couple times, lots of goldfishing with it on tappedout though. It generates a good amount of advantage but I just don't have the reps with it against other decks to see if it works or not.
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tireless Tracker
Spells 20
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Path to Exile
2 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
I'll leave the sideboard to you, but I strongly recommend including the following:
1 Crop Rotation
1 Maze of Ith
1 Treetop Village
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Lost Legacy
You can't get much lower to the ground in Nic Fit than this. If you're looking for another 2 drop, Qasali Pridemage is what I would look at.
How important is Veteran Explorer for your gameplan, I mean i can see 3 Veteran Explorer main with 4 Deathrite Shaman.
Also i can see a Jund splash happen here, going with PFire, Liliana, KCommand, Scooze and something toolboxie to replace the SFM Package
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
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