[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[Hrothgar]

One list ran 0 Ancestral Vision maindeck, opting instead for a discard package of 4 Hymn and 2 Thoughtseize, alone with 2 each of Leo, Lili, and Jace.

This is Jund style for the deck.
I don't know if is correct to give up at the "blue" factor, just for add 4 discard effects.
Some months ago, at Ovino X, Timur Bose bring This list with a similar concept:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21382&iddeck=163891

Obv Leo here do not exist, but we can see a Jund-similar approach.
I'm in accord with this player, bring in the Ancestral Visions because imho this is a very good reason to play the deck.

I don't know if this is the right moment to leave the Will's but, imho, discards effect are too strong the before now.
In this days i test this solutions.

[tescrin]

The problem with Visions is that you can't reliably cast it with Leo's everywhere. You actually want CA to come from other directions than card-draw because it minimizes opposing Leo's. Hymn actually negates the card draw of Leo if you already got them down to 1-card; because they'll draw and then discard both; if they had a couple cards left, you still have a very high chance (66%) to get the cards you'd want.

It sucks that Hymn is less reliable, but Ancestral is unreliable now as well, due to the ever-presence of our Leord and master. I think that visions also will be hit by the influx of Stifle we may see.

What you say is true, that Shardless was all about cards that get you yet more cards so you can reliably outnumber and out-beat your opponent, but you have to find more ways to do that without drawing if you can because the chances of Shardless being a 3-mana 2/2 have gone up considerably.

[FZA]

The problem with Visions is that you can't reliably cast it with Leo's everywhere. You actually want CA to come from other directions than card-draw because it minimizes opposing Leo's. Hymn actually negates the card draw of Leo if you already got them down to 1-card; because they'll draw and then discard both; if they had a couple cards left, you still have a very high chance (66%) to get the cards you'd want.

It sucks that Hymn is less reliable, but Ancestral is unreliable now as well, due to the ever-presence of our Leord and master. I think that visions also will be hit by the influx of Stifle we may see.

What you say is true, that Shardless was all about cards that get you yet more cards so you can reliably outnumber and out-beat your opponent, but you have to find more ways to do that without drawing if you can because the chances of Shardless being a 3-mana 2/2 have gone up considerably.

The question becomes though, without AV why even play Shardless Agent in the first place? Sure it's still a 2-for-1, kinda, but I don't that alone is worth the deck building restrictions it comes with (no counters). The interaction between Shardless and AV is what makes the deck worth playing, IMO. I don't think a Shardless deck without AV is "bad", but at that point why not just play Team America or 4c Pile?

[tescrin]

The question becomes though, without AV why even play Shardless Agent in the first place? Sure it's still a 2-for-1, kinda, but I don't that alone is worth the deck building restrictions it comes with (no counters). The interaction between Shardless and AV is what makes the deck worth playing, IMO. I don't think a Shardless deck without AV is "bad", but at that point why not just play Team America or 4c Pile?

I basically agree I think, but that's why everyone is on other BUG decks. It's nice that he casts something else for that mana, so it's not weak to countermagic, but I think Leo-spam is probably why this is on the downswing. Why run a deck susceptible to a hate-beast in the same colors when you can run a cleaner deck with said hate-beast.

Going back, I think cascading into Hymn is fine. I could see upping the ante and going for weird cascade targets or just risking Visions since it's only the second half of the card anyway. Hard to say. My guess is that the TNN Leo decks beat the Shardless BUG decks and that's why the "BUG Midrange" evolved.

[EronRelentless]

I played the Deck without Ancestral Vision that did the Top8 in the Legacy Challenge and it's clear that we have Combo heavy Metagame at the moment, so a slow Card like Ancestral Vision is not that strong these days, that's why I played only 2 in the sideboard. Clearly you want the card in some slower Matchups (like 4C Control and Stoneblade Decks) and it's always cool to Cascade into, but my List was clearly about beating Combo Decks. In League testing on MTGO my List had really good results against ANT, typically a bad Matchup and Sneak and Show, not the best matchup as well, and that is where I was looking at. Clearly you give up a lot of potential in the Deck, but Shardless Agent and Hymns are very much of Card Advantage already and the Visions seems to be a bit over the top or win more.

To give you a better view on the standing I would like to show you the Matchups I played at Saturday.
Round 1: AngelicExecution - Bant Spirits - 2:0
Round 2: Call1Me1Dragon - Red Stompy - 1:2
Round 3: kai2000 - Red Stomy - 2:1
Round 4: Wichtelman - Red Stomy - 2:1
Round 5: Shoetech - GB Depths - 2:1
Round 6: Stackz - 4C Loam - 2:0
Round 7: osmanozguney - UB Standstill - 0:2
QF: felipevelasquez - Elves - 1:2

[FZA]

I played the Deck without Ancestral Vision that did the Top8 in the Legacy Challenge and it's clear that we have Combo heavy Metagame at the moment, so a slow Card like Ancestral Vision is not that strong these days, that's why I played only 2 in the sideboard. Clearly you want the card in some slower Matchups (like 4C Control and Stoneblade Decks) and it's always cool to Cascade into, but my List was clearly about beating Combo Decks. In League testing on MTGO my List had really good results against ANT, typically a bad Matchup and Sneak and Show, not the best matchup as well, and that is where I was looking at. Clearly you give up a lot of potential in the Deck, but Shardless Agent and Hymns are very much of Card Advantage already and the Visions seems to be a bit over the top or win more.

To give you a better view on the standing I would like to show you the Matchups I played at Saturday.
Round 1: AngelicExecution - Bant Spirits - 2:0
Round 2: Call1Me1Dragon - Red Stompy - 1:2
Round 3: kai2000 - Red Stomy - 2:1
Round 4: Wichtelman - Red Stomy - 2:1
Round 5: Shoetech - GB Depths - 2:1
Round 6: Stackz - 4C Loam - 2:0
Round 7: osmanozguney - UB Standstill - 0:2
QF: felipevelasquez - Elves - 1:2

Thanks for posting, it's nice to hear straight from the horse's mouth.

What made you decide to play Shardless BUG, without Visions, instead of something like 4c Pile, or just BUG Midrange with no Agents? If you aren't playing Visions, is Agent still better than something like TNN?

Also, it's impressive that you managed to Top 8 while getting pair against Red Stompy 3 times...I've always considered that an absolute nightmare matchup for us. How were you able to fight through all those Moon effects?

[EronRelentless]

It's not that hard to fight the Stompy Decks because you have the chance to fetch for a Forest or Swamp in Turn1 and then Cast Deathrite Shaman and later Tarmogoyf. It's essential to counter the first Blood Moon effect and then you are likely to win with a Goyf. If you have enough Lands in the bin you can even Decay the Moon Effects and play a normal Game. In the end I boarded wrong against the first Stompy Player, because I was not that sure about the Matchup because I didn't played against it for like a year or so. The third Game against him was lost with double Hymn in hand, which I am assuming to board out (in opposite to Big Red) after all and to the new Red God, because I did not put in Toxic Deluge and Diabolic Edict. In the next rounds it was a bit clearer how to play against that Deck, but the Games were still very close.

For sure I made some tests, with the normal Sultai Midrange Deck, but I lost a couple Sultai mirror Matches and I was pretty safe with my Shardless Deck as I was playing it for about 2 years yet before the Top banning and had decent finishes with it in our local Legacy Tournaments with plenty of Days where I did not even play against Miracles. The cool thing is, that you even without Ancestral Vision have the factor of the most Card Advantage and that is still like a trump in the slower Matchups. The Deck seems way more reliable than the other Sultai Midrange Builds because you can play pretty strong Cards in opposite like the 3rd Mana Dork or the 3rd Cantrip in a row, instead I can crush the opponents plan with double Hymn over two Turns and then cast an Agent into something like Tarmogoyf. I'm not saying this is the best built and everyone should play it like this, but I would clearly say, that this Deck has an even Combo Matchup (at least Storm and Sneak&Show) and still the tools to crush the opposing Midrangy Decks. After my testing I can clearly say that you crush the 4C Czech Piles with every Shardless Deck unless you play against the Master Tomas Mar himself. Last but not least is to say that True-Name Nemesis is a really expensive Card on MTGO and I was not ready to buy it, just for trying. I am convinced that Shardless Sultai even without Miracle is still a viable Archetype.

[minyafriend]

It's not that hard to fight the Stompy Decks because you have the chance to fetch for a Forest or Swamp in Turn1 and then Cast Deathrite Shaman and later Tarmogoyf. It's essential to counter the first Blood Moon effect and then you are likely to win with a Goyf. If you have enough Lands in the bin you can even Decay the Moon Effects and play a normal Game. In the end I boarded wrong against the first Stompy Player, because I was not that sure about the Matchup because I didn't played against it for like a year or so. The third Game against him was lost with double Hymn in hand, which I am assuming to board out (in opposite to Big Red) after all and to the new Red God, because I did not put in Toxic Deluge and Diabolic Edict. In the next rounds it was a bit clearer how to play against that Deck, but the Games were still very close.

For sure I made some tests, with the normal Sultai Midrange Deck, but I lost a couple Sultai mirror Matches and I was pretty safe with my Shardless Deck as I was playing it for about 2 years yet before the Top banning and had decent finishes with it in our local Legacy Tournaments with plenty of Days where I did not even play against Miracles. The cool thing is, that you even without Ancestral Vision have the factor of the most Card Advantage and that is still like a trump in the slower Matchups. The Deck seems way more reliable than the other Sultai Midrange Builds because you can play pretty strong Cards in opposite like the 3rd Mana Dork or the 3rd Cantrip in a row, instead I can crush the opponents plan with double Hymn over two Turns and then cast an Agent into something like Tarmogoyf. I'm not saying this is the best built and everyone should play it like this, but I would clearly say, that this Deck has an even Combo Matchup (at least Storm and Sneak&Show) and still the tools to crush the opposing Midrangy Decks. After my testing I can clearly say that you crush the 4C Czech Piles with every Shardless Deck unless you play against the Master Tomas Mar himself. Last but not least is to say that True-Name Nemesis is a really expensive Card on MTGO and I was not ready to buy it, just for trying. I am convinced that Shardless Sultai even without Miracle is still a viable Archetype.

I definitely don't feel like shardless is a dead deck either and agree that the meta has sped up quite a bit with combo everywhere. I was expecting to see a lot more grixis delver so I shaved jace and added a life from the loam to my sideboard but didn't face it in the challenge all day. My matchups were:
Food chain 2-0
Ub standstill 2-0
Sneak and show 2-0
Grixis control 2-0
Red stompy 0-2 major misplays due to not playing against hazoret before and md leyline of sanctity was a beating.
Red stompy 2-0
Maverick 1-2
And in top 8 got paired against the same maverick player who was on my friends maverick list that I'm pretty certain is just about as 50/50as it comes. 1-2
Not a bad overall win % for a deck that people love to hate, and 3 of my opponents even made top 8.

Not sure if loam is the right call, but it certainly is a good time for more md hymn and thoughtseize and I'm still very happy with 4 leyline of the void because b/r reanimator is everywhere still.

[FZA]

It's not that hard to fight the Stompy Decks because you have the chance to fetch for a Forest or Swamp in Turn1 and then Cast Deathrite Shaman and later Tarmogoyf. It's essential to counter the first Blood Moon effect and then you are likely to win with a Goyf. If you have enough Lands in the bin you can even Decay the Moon Effects and play a normal Game. In the end I boarded wrong against the first Stompy Player, because I was not that sure about the Matchup because I didn't played against it for like a year or so. The third Game against him was lost with double Hymn in hand, which I am assuming to board out (in opposite to Big Red) after all and to the new Red God, because I did not put in Toxic Deluge and Diabolic Edict. In the next rounds it was a bit clearer how to play against that Deck, but the Games were still very close.

For sure I made some tests, with the normal Sultai Midrange Deck, but I lost a couple Sultai mirror Matches and I was pretty safe with my Shardless Deck as I was playing it for about 2 years yet before the Top banning and had decent finishes with it in our local Legacy Tournaments with plenty of Days where I did not even play against Miracles. The cool thing is, that you even without Ancestral Vision have the factor of the most Card Advantage and that is still like a trump in the slower Matchups. The Deck seems way more reliable than the other Sultai Midrange Builds because you can play pretty strong Cards in opposite like the 3rd Mana Dork or the 3rd Cantrip in a row, instead I can crush the opponents plan with double Hymn over two Turns and then cast an Agent into something like Tarmogoyf. I'm not saying this is the best built and everyone should play it like this, but I would clearly say, that this Deck has an even Combo Matchup (at least Storm and Sneak&Show) and still the tools to crush the opposing Midrangy Decks. After my testing I can clearly say that you crush the 4C Czech Piles with every Shardless Deck unless you play against the Master Tomas Mar himself. Last but not least is to say that True-Name Nemesis is a really expensive Card on MTGO and I was not ready to buy it, just for trying. I am convinced that Shardless Sultai even without Miracle is still a viable Archetype.

I actually played your list in a league online. Went 4-1 and it felt pretty sweet, I really like the extra discard. I did lose one match to a seemingly endless stream of True-Names from a Stoneblade player. God that card is dumb lol. I did crush red stompy along with way though :)

I am still wondering if Snapcaster Mage might be a better CA engine than Shardless for a deck that isn't playing Ancestral, though. But the ability of Shardless to create a board state out of nothing, by hitting a Goyf/Strix, is still pretty good and not something that Snap can do. Also, having Ancestral in the board is still pretty solid.

[EronRelentless]

Very happy that you tried my Deck and made a solid finish with it. Yes we only have Lili as answers to True Name in the Deck if it resolves we have a problem. Anyway we can discard it with Thoughtseize or Hymns or we have Force of Will but I was never a fan of Toxic Deluge in the Maindeck.

Yesterday I also played 2 Leagues on MTGO and with this List I 5-0'ed. The Matches were very close (won every Match with 2-1) but I played Ancestral Vision in the Maindeck again and did only board it out against Reanimator. It's very close to Minyafriends List but as I mentioned before I never liked Toxic Deluge in the Maindeck and I opted to change the Mana Base a bit, because we have no double Blue anymore, therefore we need more black mana, but maybe a fourth USea would be better. I'd like to point out that Liliana, the Last Hope is my new Garruk Relentless type of Card in the Sideboard and it's very good against Grixis, Infect, Elves and DnT and can return Creatures in the late Game. You can play it a Turn earlier though.

Lands
3 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

Instants
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Sorceries
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Hymn to Tourach

Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Veil

Creatures
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf

Sideboard
SB: 2 Fatal Push
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[Hrothgar]

Hi Eron, congrats for your result!
Your deck looks solid: I'm not sure just about the 3rd Bayou (maybe the 4th Underground is the right choice).
In this days I play Shardless and I try this list (with 4 Underground) but, sometimes, I need the Toxic and the Maelstrom.
Anyway this deck have a clear plan and if the draw are goods, we make a lot of cards / board advantage.

The sideboard is, maybe, the hardest thing to setup for now, but I'm sure about 2x Golgari in this meta (too many 1/1 and Enchantment like moon).

[EronRelentless]

Hi Eron, congrats for your result!
Your deck looks solid: I'm not sure just about the 3rd Bayou (maybe the 4th Underground is the right choice).
In this days I play Shardless and I try this list (with 4 Underground) but, sometimes, I need the Toxic and the Maelstrom.
Anyway this deck have a clear plan and if the draw are goods, we make a lot of cards / board advantage.

The sideboard is, maybe, the hardest thing to setup for now, but I'm sure about 2x Golgari in this meta (too many 1/1 and Enchantment like moon).

You are right, the 3rd Bayou was just experimental and for the Mana Base I Used the Mana Base Builder of deckstats.net, a very useful Website to look at some Deck statistics. In my further testing I played with the 2nd Tropical, while I was playing Jace again, but it's really hard to notice a difference in the Manabase at all. In my case it's also a budget thing, because I don't own a fourth Usea, but in theory it should be the best Land which fills the slot.

In my latest Version I did cut the Diabolic Edict, because with Shardless Agent in the Deck the Card seems too suboptimal random, so it's more useful in Delver Shells which controls the Cards in hand a bit better than us. I also opted for another Golgari Charm, which is one of the best Sideboard Cards in our Deck, in my latest version. A long time in the Miracles era I also played 1 Maelstrom Pulse in the Maindeck, but the times where Jace is everywhere are passed. Whenever I played Toxic Deluge in my Maindeck I hated it against 90% of the Matchups and it was the most common Card to shuffle away with a Brainstorm and to be boarded out. I think with 2 Combo Decks on the top of the Meta it's really bad positioned in the Meta, unless you really want to have an edge against Grixis Delver, but I think there it still is too clunky and can be Dazed too easily.

[pipet76]

Why is this thread so dead?

I don't agree with the fact that with Miracles gone Shardless has to go as well. I'm actually playing it from time to time with good results.

[diablo4488]

Why is this thread so dead?

I don't agree with the fact that with Miracles gone Shardless has to go as well. I'm actually playing it from time to time with good results.

+1
Still love the deck. I never felt Shardless would be a really good matchtup (>60%) vs. Miracles (like 12-Post i.e.).
I still play it with really good success. You just have to trim your flexslots (~5) and your sideboard depending on your local meta.
The whole package (Vision, Hymn, Shardless, PW, Decay) is so good.
The things which hurts me the most are Leovold and Chalice on 0 before Vision resolves, fast Combo or Burn.
But for the 2 first things i've got Decay as clean answer, Combo can fizzle G1 and G2 you have a lot of hate and Burn, well, take it.

[HateKnuckle]

It definitely feels like it isn't keeping up with changing times well.

It just feels like Legacy is punishing mid-range. You really have to be in the business of doing something fast and efficiently. Delver variants are everywhere and they do the job of Shardless better than Shardless.

[pipet76]

It definitely feels like it isn't keeping up with changing times well.

It just feels like Legacy is punishing mid-range. You really have to be in the business of doing something fast and efficiently. Delver variants are everywhere and they do the job of Shardless better than Shardless.

I agree. But in any case Sultai delver seem to be pretty good against combo, compared to Shardless, but if mid-range delver decks are more popular right now, Shardless should be better, since it has a very good MU again delver

Do you think Sultai Control with TNN and Leovold is better nowadays?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Do you think Sultai Control with TNN and Leovold is better nowadays?

I do. I think it and DeathBlade are both better right now.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Hrothgar]

Imho Shardless is very strong in a no-combo meta.
One of the strongest midrange deck ever imho, but too easy matchup for BR reanimator, ANT, Show and Tell...

[HateKnuckle]

I agree. But in any case Sultai delver seem to be pretty good against combo, compared to Shardless, but if mid-range delver decks are more popular right now, Shardless should be better, since it has a very good MU again delver

Do you think Sultai Control with TNN and Leovold is better nowadays?

Oh yeah. I think those guys are doing the job that Shardless does but better. They can play more countermagic, better creatures(TNN, Gurmag,Tombstalker, etc.), and also play Leovold.

I think that in order for Shardless to make a comeback we'll need to see Abrupt Decay be a necessity like it used to, another amazing spell to cascade into because right now Shardless Agent is just not what you need to be doing in Legacy, or ban Delver.

Who knows? Maybe with WotC's new perspectives on banning cards they might put the axe to Delver now. We can only hope.

[diablo4488]

It definitely feels like it isn't keeping up with changing times well.

It just feels like Legacy is punishing mid-range. You really have to be in the business of doing something fast and efficiently. Delver variants are everywhere and they do the job of Shardless better than Shardless.

The question is, which job?
Finish the game on T6 with high risk to get blown out and then the fuel goes out?
Sure, in a combo-heavy meta it feels awful but in midrange, control is king.
Just now i feel we need some more removal, i play 2 Deluge and 1 Push main alongside to 4 Decay's.
And i don't have to tell you what happens if Hymn hits right on T2-T4.