Hey Anzi, you've probably talked about this on stream but I've been on holiday... I notice your playing with two Invasive Surgery in the board. Any chance you can chat about your thoughts on the card? Matches it comes in for etc? Thanks and congrats on another 5-0.
Continuing with asking stupid questions: do we really not want Blood Moon against Grixis / RUG Delver? (Obviously not against UR Delver since it runs so many basics / bolts.) I get that it comes down a bit later in the game and that they may already have resolved a threat or two by then, but we need to be able to answer resolved threats anyway, and if Blood Moon resolves, they can hardly cast a spell.Originally Posted by TheArchitect
If we're not bringing in Blood Moon against Grixis Delver, is it really worth one or two sideboard slots? What do we want it against? Lands expects it and has Krosan Grip at the ready. Looking at MTGGoldfish, at least some of the Grixis Control and 4C Control lists are running basics (and Grixis Control is even running Blood Moons sometimes). Is it just for Lands and some BUG decks without basics, or ...?
What am I missing? (Obviously, I'm not so great at sideboarding since this isn't already obvious to me.)
This is exactly why I don't like Blood Moon. It doesn't help us with much except Lands and some more fringe decks like something with Cloudpost, or Eldrazi if you run into it still. The main reason we want it really was for Grove of the Burnwillows imo, but we can answer P Fire with Surgical in theory.
Its easy to understand why we don't bring in Blood Moons vs Delver is because they have two 2-for-1s at most in their maindeck and our whole deck is 2-for-1s.
I still like having a card or two for "Lands-based" match-ups.
Agree that Blood Moon just isn't where we want to be. I'd much rather have those slots as additional generic good cards like Verdicts, Rest in Peace, hatebears, counters, etc.
I also like to bring in Blood Moon against Infect. Jamming it on turn 3 is probaly too risky, but shutting off Inkmoth Nexus for good after the first wave has been handled seems worth it to me.
Concerning the narrowness of blood moon? Can't the same be said about ethersworn canonist?
I mean nobody discusses the use of canonist.
Both cards are useful. But often times I find myself having to many cards to bring in.
It boils down to what you're expecting to face. If the metagame was rampant with Eldrazi, Lands, midrange decks without basics, Cloudpost etc then Blood Moon gets a lot better. There's still a lot of Storm online, and despite the not great showing at GP Vegas, it's played a lot in real life too. The matchup has swung to heavily in their favour since SDT was banned and it's something I don't want to just ignore, so dedicating heavy hitting sb slots is worth it to me.
If you have too many cards to bring in then you can readjust your sb to make it work, so other matchups get better.
Against the red delver decks, they generally are more aggressive and blood moon is just win more. If you are resolving 3 mana sorceries that don't impact the board then you are either dead on board already or any big spell (mentor, jace, snap+predict) could end the game. They often can just ignore the moon too if they have a few red cards or a deathrite.Continuing with asking stupid questions: do we really not want Blood Moon against Grixis / RUG Delver? (Obviously not against UR Delver since it runs so many basics / bolts.) I get that it comes down a bit later in the game and that they may already have resolved a threat or two by then, but we need to be able to answer resolved threats anyway, and if Blood Moon resolves, they can hardly cast a spell.
If we're not bringing in Blood Moon against Grixis Delver, is it really worth one or two sideboard slots? What do we want it against? Lands expects it and has Krosan Grip at the ready. Looking at MTGGoldfish, at least some of the Grixis Control and 4C Control lists are running basics (and Grixis Control is even running Blood Moons sometimes). Is it just for Lands and some BUG decks without basics, or ...?
What am I missing? (Obviously, I'm not so great at sideboarding since this isn't already obvious to me.
This is why most people are not playing blood moon. It can single highhandedly end games but only in very narrow situations.
Because when you bring in canonist, it is in matchups where you definitely jam it on turn 2 and it is definitely good. With moon sometimes it hurts you more than it hurts your opponent so there is a lot of setup. I would say they are both narrow cards, but canonist is like a 10/10 SB card in the matchups you want it. Moon is like 6/10 against BUG decks, and a 8/10 against lands or eldrazi.
My 2 cents:
Imho Blood Moon is a very strong card, but I don't like her so much.
Well, I don't think that Blood Moon is not playable... In a restricted Eldrazi / BUG / MUD / BANT meta, Moon is a great card.
I can't negate that in some game-state Blood Moon, alone, can win a match...and I can't negate the great impact vs some decks like Eldrazi or BUG...but, with Miracle, I prefer to build another types of advantage in the game.
This is totally opposite from the way taken by the actual Legacy metagame: a lot of broken cards who can generate asymmetrically advantage like Chalice of the Void in Eldrazi or Blood Moon / Magus in a Red Moon Stompy.
But, imho, the concept of Miracle is totally different from those decks...and, in a open meta, i like to follow the Angelo's idea, playing Snapcaster's synergic cards and a mana curve less high then other decks...i want to generate little advantage, 2x1 and, obv, cards advantage.
I don't want to play a Moon (who many times NEEDS to come into play the first as possible to give the maximum advantage) in a "forced time" for the deck...I don't want to force my playing with Miracle.
The deck need the right time to play each spells obv.
If I want to play a CC3 permanent, many times I want to play Vendilion Clique, that give me a lot of info, can destroy the opponent's plan, can block a creature (maybe an Infect creature), can beat an opponent's Planeswalker...Sometimes, depending by the boarding state obv, Monastery Mentor.
This is my approach in Miracle, this is what I understand playing (and facing) The deck.
Agreed on all of this. Another thing to note is that something like Blood moon is explosive and powerful, but other decks IMO utilize it's ability to "lock" the game out more, such as Red Stompy or Painter did, because they have other threatening things to go with the moons, such as chalice, or grindstone, but also the ability to accelerate out the moon somehow. A blood moon, on turn 3 or 4, with a deck that holds a lot of air, is not extremely threatening, at least, not in the same way as it is from those other decks. I think Blood Moon is a powerful effect, but it also makes you inflexible at times. It's certainly playable when the niche for it exists or is necessary, but you have to value its effects very highly.
Saw some lists using daze. What's the thought on it?
Thanks to everyone for all the input that's been shared so far, I don't post much but I do appreciate all the insights that have been shared to help the community.
I have a few questions:
1) It seems like more people are playing Ethersworn Canonist than Leyline of Sanctity. Is the consensus starting to settle on Canonist? And if so, why Canonist over Leyline?
2) It also seems like the consensus is settling on Jeskai, just like the old Miracles lists. Is anyone still playing straight UW? Is it just because of the REB effects? I have seen Staticaster come up in a lot of sideboards and people go back and forth on Blood Moon, but it seems like REB is the main reason for the splash (just like before). Is that a correct assessment?
Canonist is played over Leyline primarily for the Show and Tell matchups; Burn and Storm aren't large and/or threatening enough presences to justify playing them over Canonist, which also has applications against a variety of other combo decks. The deck also plays up to 12 cantrips, so playing a more castable card jives better. Of course, there is enough sideboard room to play both if you wanted, but Canonist is definitely better.
The red splash is pretty much entirely for REB effects, yes; all other red options are just ancillary to that. The red splash is primarily to get an edge in the mirror, which will be an eventuality once the deck gets more high finishes. It also has excellent applications versus S&T, Stoneblade, BUG Leovold, etc., but it's just for a perceived mirror matchup that probably isn't likely enough right now to necessarily justify it at this exact moment. Straight UW is probably better in the short term.
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Daze Miracles is a Claudio Bonanni special :P I'm sure I can direct him here to elaborate further, but he uses it to be more proactive than regular Miracles and more punishing and aggressive. It works quite well at doing just that, and I've tried various Daze builds myself (even post ban) I can't really describe them as better or worse, but a very different way of playing the deck.
Secondly, we are on track to be a DTB once again! If our current momentum continues, it'll be guaranteed. We are currently at #6 on the Council, and the cutoff as it stands would be the top 5 decks, but there is still some data left to be gathered from events that haven't been reported yet, but took place this month. That means, if it happens, that Miracle Control will return to DTB status two months after the deck "died" due to the banning, which is an absolutely incredible stat.
To that end, I want to thank everyone here who continues to share thoughts and work on the deck. The community behind this archetype is like none other in all of Legacy, both public and private. It was a collaborative effort to rise Miracles from the ashes once again, and seeing our hard work pay off in such volumes, at least from a statistical point of view, is no small achievement.
What is dead may never die.
EDIT: This means I have to drop everything and actually work on a Primer, so look for a new thread + Primer (even if it's a small placeholder) by this weekend.
EDIT2: Looks like we are #9 after another several events got reported, and I think cutoff would be top 7-8, so we still need a few more events!
Indeed! As someone who only got to play 'old' Miracles for a couple months before the Top ban, it's been very exciting to watch the re-development of this deck.
Thanks also to all for the follow-up Blood Moon discussion. Very informative to hear the different opinions -- and particularly interesting to hear how a number of the more experienced players in this thread aren't really interested in playing Blood Moon, especially seeing how many of the Miracles lists posted on MTGGoldfish have 1-2 Blood Moons in the side. If you feel so inclined, a rough sideboarding guide in the new primer would certainly be appreciated -- especially if it was more strategic commentary like this discussion, rather than just a 'recipe' (+2 here, -2 there, etc.).
May I suggest a title?
'Who Could Have Predicted? An Unexpected Miracle: The Return of the King'
Is there any recent video content online?
Last videos are the GP Las Vegas, when 2 Miracle deck gets 9-0 in day one.
Here you can find the lists:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...-0s-2017-06-16
And here you can find some videos of the event:
https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game...ing/videos/all
Hey so I picked this deck up about a month back wanting to try out the new miracles list after not enjoying playing the original years back (played shardless/other bug midrange for years), and I've really been enjoying the deck. It's a ton of fun. But I would love some sideboard help for my specific meta if you guys wouldn't mind as I'm having trouble figuring out what comes in/out for specific matchups.
My list:
Lands-20
4 Island
3 plains
3 tundra
2 volc island
4 scalding tarns
4 flooded strand
Instants-19
4 brainstorm
4 stp
4 fow
3 predict
2 counterspell
2 unexpectedly absent
Sorcery-12
4 ponder
4 terminus
4 portent
Other-9
3 snapcaster
2 mentor (looking for a third)
3 JTMS
1 engineered explosives
Sideboard changes regularly, but I've currently got
1 counterspell
2 disenchant
2 cannonist
2 pyroblas
3 surgical extraction
1 clique
1 staticaster
1 blue ele blast
1 red ele blast
1 chill
As far as meta goes, we've got 1 grixis delver, 1 grixis delver/infect (changes), 1 bug delver, 1 UR delver (thunder wrath version), 1 noble bug, 1 UR delver/UB reanimator (changes), 1 BR reanimator, 1 MUD/Jund Lands (usually plays MUD), 1 RG lands, 1 ANT/TES, 2 DnT, 1 Eldrazi, 1 Eldrazi/Sneak n Show (changes), and 2 Food Chain. Others occasionally pop up as well. It's pretty varried, and as it's constantly changing, I just don't really know what an ideal board would look like. I've been having the most trouble with Lands variants, UR delver, MUD, Eldrazi and food chain if food chain ever resolves. Any and all input would be greatly appreciated!
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