12 turn 1 mana ramp cards probably mitigates that a bit.Originally Posted by TMagpie
Turn 1 plays: 12 (not counting stp)
Turn 2 plays: 15 (incl. GSZ for DRS/Hierarch as potential here if you are clogged on 3s and want to ramp after they spend their t1 bolting/stping your dork)
I would like Sylvan or Oath of Nissa in here to mitigate the potential to flood out late, but the strategy is pretty sound without Mom. He has at least 1 flex slot and could cut 1 mana dork for 2 library or 2 oath.
I'm not sold on playing more than 1 Excavator. He is much like many of the other bullets; extremely good in some situations and almost embarrassingly bad in others. I certainly want the first to Zenith for when Wasteland 5ever will stop them from playing the game, but I really don't want to draw a copy (or god forbid a second copy) against fast combo.
It was not a complaint, just an observation, I would really like to know how this pans out.
EDIT: Missed a crucial word that reversed my intended statement.
Last edited by TMagpie; 07-05-2017 at 09:44 PM.
It looks like it's 8 (minus GSZ stuff) which is fine when you have 12 ramps, even 8 ramps is quite fine. I've ran 8 3-drops in Junk with only DRS as the ramper I think.
I think that's the point of Maverick (and Dark Bant) is that you have enough dudes that you threaten a brutal 3-drop T2. That said, Crucible dude (like Courser) wants you to be a turn behind, so to speak, that way you get CA *right now*, so he's more of a 4-drop.
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I'd run Rallier over of the THC, since he's.. better. A card now is better than a card later. And a card now is *way* better then never getting a card. I know THC can get some goofy locks on people but it seems christmas land or "win more."
I'd like to see *1 Loam* in the list. It's basically Thalia 1.0 #5 and it flat out wins some of the matches on its own. Secondly, on both of the above points, if you're used to having mom; this style I'm suggesting wants CA to make up for the lack of protection. So Rallier, Loam, Crucible Naga, Courser.
So to sum up:
-1 Excavator, +1 Courser (good in different situations, tutorable, similar dude)
-1 Knight, +1 Loam
-2 THC, +2 Rallier
-1 Scryb Ranger, +1 Library (Scryb is good with mom, but not that good when he's just eating land drops for vigilance IMO.)
I'm also not sure why there's no Safekeeper. I was advocating that Safekeeper > Mom because of psuedo-haste, psuedo untap ability, and that mixed with Crucible Snake he's that much better. Leaving him out in a GSZ deck that liked running mom just seems odd IMO.
IMO - if you want to add Crucible Snake you have to include things which get benefit of it.
here only 2 (3) cards came to my mind which can be very useful/powerful.
number 1: Sylvan Safekeeper
number 2: Ghost Quarter
(Life from the Loam)
and durdle things like The Gitrog Monster.
if i want to play this guy, than i want to use my lands in graveyard again and again.
we have to admit that deathrite shamans disrupt this plan (on our side or on opponents side)
to adjust my personal list i would go in future with 3 deathrite shaman and 2 noble hierarch (instead of 4/1)
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when you want to play without Mother of Runes you have to add at least 1 or 2 copies of Sylvan Safekeeper.
it cant be good to run no protection in this deck!
more than 6 copies of manadorks cant be good either - you just want to draw Gas/Bombs on the following turns.
just my 2 cents
Azusa, Lost but Seeking is cheaper than Gitrog and enables extremely powerful plays with the Naga (tripple Wasteland/Horizon Canopy activations). She is pretty useless on her own, though. Probably not worth it unless you build a deck around the interaction.IMO - if you want to add Crucible Snake you have to include things which get benefit of it.
here only 2 (3) cards came to my mind which can be very useful/powerful.
number 1: Sylvan Safekeeper
number 2: Ghost Quarter
(Life from the Loam)
and durdle things like The Gitrog Monster.
if i want to play this guy, than i want to use my lands in graveyard again and again.
we have to admit that deathrite shamans disrupt this plan (on our side or on opponents side)
to adjust my personal list i would go in future with 3 deathrite shaman and 2 noble hierarch (instead of 4/1)
---------------------------------------------------
when you want to play without Mother of Runes you have to add at least 1 or 2 copies of Sylvan Safekeeper.
it cant be good to run no protection in this deck!
more than 6 copies of manadorks cant be good either - you just want to draw Gas/Bombs on the following turns.
just my 2 cents
your right Barook :)
also we should not focus on Land Destruction too heavy (there are other decks that try to do this, Lands, Loam, Sylvan Plug etc.)
Welcome back,
Fast note from work. :P
On last day I tested Punishing and Abzan version of Maverick.
In red we have better sideboard options:
Sudden Demise > Pyroclasm (delver and elves killer)
Pyroblast (Allstar)
Wear // Tear > Ancient Grudge (more flexible)
But Abzan is simple better in my opinion because playing punishing version we try to do that others decks do better.
Like for example Punishing Abzan and we need to sideboard the same way with Thoughtseize, Thalia and others hatebeards.
We win with fair decks without P. Fire Lock, we can crush them with creatures.
And new 3-drop:
Renegade Rallier - Me and 2 my friends say NO. Never zenith for this, only good in 3rd turn for another utility land or hatebeard. Rallier don't like opponents Deathrite Shaman.
Leovold - Don't work in Punishing Version (true 3-color deck, don't argue with zeniths toolbox) but we can use him in abzan version and he is good, treat him like another hatebeards, nothing else, I'm testing him.
Courser of Kruphix - Don't like him, false card advance, give information to opponents what we playing.
Ramunap Excavator - Utility Lands resurrection feel so good, but kinda slow, potentially wastelock by we can do this with KotR.
With table like this: Sylvan Safekeeper, KotR, Ramunap Excavator and Gitfrog Monster we win without doing crazy things with lands.
Thalia, Heretical Cathar - In abzan version is real pain in as for opponent, games like: 1st - DRS, 2nd Thalia 1.0 and wasteland, 3rd Thali 2.0 can kill almost all deck.
Sanctum Prelate - I'm move him to sideboard vs all kind combos and strange decks.
Council's Judgement - I can replace this with Blessed Alliance, we need fast, instants removal.
Barbarian Ring / Cabal Pit - almost the same things
What maverick really need?
Maverick need better creatures, with different cmc other than 3, 3 is holy number for KotR.
Maverick need to care himself without Mother of Runes but actually is really hard in some MU.
Wizard gave Leovold for BUG, Sanctum Prelate and Recruiter of the Guard for DnT and 0 cards for Maverick with this power level.
For examples:
Ramunap Excavator - Feel good but doesn't win games. What I want? New creature with cost WG and 2/2 and same effect.
Eternal Witness - Staple from the past, but not now. What I want? New creature with cost WG and 2/2 and same effect.
Titania - Fun but 5/3? In new delver meta, no thank. I back sometimes to Sigarda.
@skizz @barook
I think the single Excavator provides most of the value there. It only takes 1 slot in the 75, and will usually be good on his own.
Azusa triple Wasteland and Gitrog shenanigans don't seem like this deck. Cool and powerful for sure, but I think they take us down a rabbit hole that Maverick doesn't want to go down.
My basic plan usually comes down one of these:
- Use Deathrite and Thalia to control and eventually finish off combo decks.
- Use Knight for Wastelands, and start smashing with Knight to beat fair decks.
- Use Knight for Dark Depths if that line becomes available, and would be faster than smashing with Knight.
Excavator helps in the Wasteland plan, and also gives you a re-buy on Dark Depths if you've decided to do that but something went wrong.
Azusa and Gitrog are pretty bad on their own, and don't really help unless something weird happens (like turn 2 Azusa, then double Waste them).
just 5-0'd with this hot mess:
played against dragon stompy (although i understand people aren't into that deck name anymore), 3x stone blade, and jund.
i would definitely put an excavator over one of the ralliers. for all the people saying "why would you play [3drop] when you can get a knight," i think i must play the deck pretty differently from you, but I'm very rarely searching up knight. i'm usually in search of some card advantage or a board presence that isn't immediately undone by a single removal spell. saying that rallier is bad against DRS also strikes me as odd since knight is so bad against DRS as well.
cards I zenith for the most often based on my memory of the experience:just 5-0'd with this hot mess:
played against dragon stompy (although i understand people aren't into that deck name anymore), 3x stone blade, and jund.
i would definitely put an excavator over one of the ralliers. for all the people saying "why would you play [3drop] when you can get a knight," i think i must play the deck pretty differently from you, but I'm very rarely searching up knight. i'm usually in search of some card advantage or a board presence that isn't immediately undone by a single removal spell. saying that rallier is bad against DRS also strikes me as odd since knight is so bad against DRS as well.
Dryad Arbor
Knight of the Reliquary
Deathrite Shaman/Birds of Paradise
Hatebear of Some Sort
Scryb Ranger/Birds of Paradise
For the most part, I most often use Zenith to either fix mana, grab Knight, grab a hatebear, or grab evasion. I also often run 4 Stoneforge Mystic, so I rarely ask myself "Do I need to search for card advantage" when I already run 4 cantrip creatures and Horizon Canopy.
When Magus of the Crucible becomes legal I will definitely try running 1 of him + 1 Ghost Quarter over my current Dark Depths combo. Not that I think it's better--but I just want to know what its like.
Something to note: Rallier is also tempo advantage; which is overlooked. The reason he's good is that he's a 3/2 Shardless Agent with better selection, not because he's a 3/2 Coiling Oracle.
No disagreements from me on that analysis, I too own copies of Rallier despite not running him because I believe that to be true.
I was primarily answering his comment of: "i'm usually in search of some card advantage or a board presence that isn't immediately undone by a single removal spell."
I usually use Stoneforge Mystic and Mother of Runes to absorb removal spells early in the game so that my mid-game Knights are safer. But if you don't run 4 SFM 1 Bskull then you don't really get to run a 2cc 4/4 creature that draws you a card.
Has anyone tried unearth in this deck? It seems good, and unexpected. What about voice of resurgence? I feel like it would often be at least 2 3/3s for GW
Went 3-1 last night on Maverick. Lost to Junk Nic Fit (I don't see how it's possible to beat that deck) and beat DnT, Aggroloam, and BW Eldrazi. Nothing too noteworthy to discuss, though I finally tried a one-of Abzan Beastmaster in my sideboard. The one time it came up was a GSZ vs DnT. Like many 3 drops, it wasn't really clear that it was better than just getting a Knight, and it got immediately Plowed anyway. Still, I'll keep dicking around with it for a bit.
What would those cards add to the deck that it can't do already and at what cost would it come, what would you have to cut to accomodate those cards?
Explorer is tough. The best plan is to try to stunt their development early with Thalia plus waste, plow any explorer on sight if they give you a chance, and don't over extend into deed. Their deck is inconsistent so my plan is to basically prey on that inconsistent and hope they draw poorly. I wouldn't say it's unwinnable, but it's real hard. Sigarda is real good.Went 3-1 last night on Maverick. Lost to Junk Nic Fit (I don't see how it's possible to beat that deck) and beat DnT, Aggroloam, and BW Eldrazi. Nothing too noteworthy to discuss, though I finally tried a one-of Abzan Beastmaster in my sideboard. The one time it came up was a GSZ vs DnT. Like many 3 drops, it wasn't really clear that it was better than just getting a Knight, and it got immediately Plowed anyway
@Stuart & Megadeus: Regarding the Nic Fit matchup, you may consider bringing in Leyline of the Void if it's in your sideboard. It stops Veteran Explorer frim triggering and prevents much of Cabal Therapy's usefulness. This allows the Thalia + Wasteland plan to strongly limit them, that is btw probably the most likely way to win g1 (like mentioned by Megadeus). I also think Pithing Needle for Pernicious Deed is good. Depths + Stage can win at the right moment. I would probably board in Discard over Mothers (certainly debatable) to get rid of their ramp or sweepers, trying to deal with their main strategies (ramp and sweep) as if it was a combo.. It seems like a very bad matchup. Gaddock Teeg stopping GSZ is also relevant, I think Nic Fit needs it more in general, and certainly once you have a favorable board position.
Ghost Quarter recursion with Ramunap Excavator is going to/could be a nice main deck answer to them.
Discard feels decent against ramp decks in general. You get to either take a key early ramp spell, or let them keep the ramp garbage and take the fatty. Always a decent choice. I think the likelihood of Ghost Quartering them out is extremely low unfortunately. I think you just try to play tight, let them lose to inconsistencies, and sometimes they're going to have it all and win
Yes, it may be too slow. I was thinking that if they stumble, they only have like six basics so after three turns of ghost quartering they are down to three remaining basics. Perhaps you've been able to Wasteland a dual or two.. It gives you inevitability in the matchup, but slow and only if you have Mother to protect Excavator (so I guess it doesn't really count as inevitability). Yes, perhaps too unlikely...
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