The current state of Magic

[Lemnear]

Going all the way - it seems like:

Cantrip/Fetch Shell (S&T, Storm, Delver, Grixis, Reanimator)
Ancient Tomb Decks (Chalice, Moon Decks, Eldrazi, Various Stompy type builds)
Other (D&T, Elves, Dredge, Lands)

When people complain about format staleness - what they really want is more of "other" decks, but designing for other is hard. You need to come up with cards that can't just be used in the Cantrip Shell OR in the Ancient Tomb shell. The successful "other" decks are extremely idiosyncratic and unique.

I am totally with you here. I am all for powerful cards which don't slip easily into the colorless ramp or Fetchland shells. Unfortunately, we are at a point where WotC has to come up with very artificial Restrictions to prevent new cards to be simply absorbed by the 3c/4c goodstuff.decs. From SFM to Tombstalker to Decay, we have seen countless examples of that happened still

[tescrin]

Leyline, RiP, Cage, Priest, and others of that ilk simply exist to create non-games of magic. The non-game problem is especially apparent in the entire modern format, where the name of the game is to side in "you can't ever win" standalone cards.

If we're fair though, these cards create non-games against one-trick pony non-game decks. Why does Priest shut down Sneakshow? Because it's so heavily focused on doing one thing well (which is good deck design.) Why does Chalice shut down Delver? Because it does one thing well. We can go on.

These decks are weak to a hate card because they are utterly optimized for a single style of interaction. People, like myself, who like midrange like the resilience and versatility of Dudes + Disruption being bigger, but suffer from Jack of all Trades. Storm and other combos instead eat people alive who aren't ready, and die a horrible death to a single card half the time.

The idea that the Non-Game of "Ritual x3, Tutor, Pif, Tutor, kill you" on T2 is any different from the non-game of "Canonist, go" is artificial. The non-game of S&T "Lol I win" isn't much different from the non-game of "CPriest eot" except that the latter in each case is a weaker strategy that requires a bunch of supporting cards to not still lose. The idea that the non-game of Dredge where basically no decks win G1 isn't a balancing factor to the fact that it still usually loses G2 and G3 is because it's a one-trick pony.

Competitive magic designs one-trick ponies because they are very efficient, but not versatile. This is why non-games occur. Competitive play is usually based on hyper-efficiency of redundant pieces rather than the mixed strategy approach, because decks/lists you should be favored against can beat you when you draw the "wrong half" of your list. And going back to Midrange decks, this is exactly why they don't always perform well. They are jack of all trades who are often specialized only for a couple MUs, and generally alright against the myriad of others.

[morgan_coke]

Tescrin:

If we're just going to have all the games decided by matchups, it's simply a disguised series of coinflips. And that's no fun for anyone.

[Purple Blood]

When you think of "pillars" you think of strategy, not tactics. Otherwise Black Lotus would be a pillar of Vintage.

If I had to come up with a list of the pillars of Legacy, it would probably be something like:

- Delver of Secrets
- Chalice of the Void, even though Ancient Tomb would also be a good choice
- Dark Ritual
- Stoneforge Mystic
- Jace, the Mind Sculptor

You could also make a case for Abrupt Decay, but that card crosses over into too many different types of decks and doesn't have really have enough strategic depths to be a pillar. DRS represents both tempo as well as midrange strategies and as such is also not a very good choice as a pillar of the format.

Edit: Show and Tell is another option, but the card/decks feels a bit too niche for me to consider it a pillar.

Interesting that you say Lotus isn't a pillar of Vintage but that Ritual and Tomb are pillars in Legacy. Curious on what distinction you're making here.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Right now there are two Pillars in Legacy. You're playing Chalice/Ancient Tomb + stuff, or you're playing Brainstorm/Ponder + stuff, or you're playing a subpar deck. That even applies to combo decks now.

There are other "almost there" pillars, like Aether Vial, but the restriction of stack interaction and filtering to blue and the death of goblins due to ever more powerful creatures and mana cheats means that they'll never actually get there.

SDT was actually the closest they ever came to giving other colors Brainstorm levels of deck manipulation, but it turns out the best shell to run it in was the BS/Ponder one, so it only made the problem worse instead of solving it. And they're so terrified of making another Top style mistake they won't print anything similar again or in other colors. It's not like they couldn't use Scry or similar or just make some more Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library type cards. They tried a little with Oath of Nissa, but only getting 3 card types was just a bit too limiting. Replace "Creature, Land, or Planeswalker" with "Permanents" and it would have made it there. I guess Ancient Stirrings and Traverse the Ulvenwald are also kinda close, but only in very limited decks.

I mean, try giving black a "look at the top 8 cards of your library and put one into your hand" sorcery for 1 or 2 and call it Demonic Study Aide or something. Give white Preordain. Faithless Looting was a great first step for Red, let's see more in that direction.

And let's be honest here, Chalice is only a "Pillar" because it shuts down Brainstorm.

EDIT: what I'm saying is I wish they'd look at the format like this and realize we need to either get rid of BS or just add a third and fourth Pillar.
EDIT2: and that's really hard to do, because even stuff like Survival, which could hit Pillar status.. is best in a BS/Ponder shell.

It seems like the real problem is that no other color has the ability to make things run as consistently as BS/Ponder does in blue. I think the answer is a little more creativity on card creation instead of trying to give every color (or a colorless) brainstorm. I don't think it would be that hard..

Leovold should have been a white card. If it was the you would have it pretty simple: blue and green already have filtering and tutor-ish effects which you discussed above; white should be the color that turns filtering/drawing off e.g. white Leovold; black is pay life for more cards so less filtering more raw card availability; red gets Faithless Looting but they could also print a card using the Eidolon of the Great Revel design space. RR 2/2 "If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step each turn, Eidolon of the Great Revel deals 2 damage to that player instead."

A world with that Eidolon and a white Leovold might actually see a Boros deck compete with the blue shell in legacy. The format could theoretically become way more diverse if there were another color that could compete directly against the generic blue shell. It would have to be something that hates on those cards otherwise you will just get decks combining both.

[morgan_coke]

Interesting that you say Lotus isn't a pillar of Vintage but that Ritual and Tomb are pillars in Legacy. Curious on what distinction you're making here.



It seems like the real problem is that no other color has the ability to make things run as consistently as BS/Ponder does in blue. I think the answer is a little more creativity on card creation instead of trying to give every color (or a colorless) brainstorm. I don't think it would be that hard..

Leovold should have been a white card. If it was the you would have it pretty simple: blue and green already have filtering and tutor-ish effects which you discussed above; white should be the color that turns filtering/drawing off e.g. white Leovold; black is pay life for more cards so less filtering more raw card availability; red gets Faithless Looting but they could also print a card using the Eidolon of the Great Revel design space. RR 2/2 "If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step each turn, Eidolon of the Great Revel deals 2 damage to that player instead."

A world with that Eidolon and a white Leovold might actually see a Boros deck compete with the blue shell in legacy. The format could theoretically become way more diverse if there were another color that could compete directly against the generic blue shell. It would have to be something that hates on those cards otherwise you will just get decks combining both.

Spirit of the Labyrinth
Chains of Mephistopheles
Fate Unraveler
Kambal, Consul of Allocation

That's white/black, but it's been done. Doesn't really work, though the costs may simply be too high. Really anything after T1, maybe T2 isn't going to have the kind of effect you want because by that time they've already used a few cantrips.

[mistercakes]

Should Leovold have been white?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...tiverseid=3549

[Crimhead]

How often do the classic fetchlands+cantrip decks play Chalice or Bloodmoon vice versa? If you play Ancient Tomb + Chalice, you most likely do not play your own cantrip shell. That's what I was trying to highlight.

I agree that cantrips don't play nicely with CotV. But I was talking specifically about fetchlands. Aggro Loam is probably the best CotV deck in the format, and it would suck without fetchlands. Lands I would not characterise as a "Chalice deck", but it certainly leans on the card a bit is certain post board situations.

If we're just going to have all the games decided by matchups, it's simply a disguised series of coinflips. And that's no fun for anyone.

That's a bit extreme, don't you think? I think feel like most matches fall between 50:50 and 65:35.

Legacy meta-gaming and deck positioning is heavily rooted in match-ups, but they are not the be all and end all. Matches and games are by no means "decided" by pairing before hands are even drawn and kept.

[Gheizen64]

Going all the way - it seems like:

Cantrip/Fetch Shell (S&T, Storm, Delver, Grixis, Reanimator)
Ancient Tomb Decks (Chalice, Moon Decks, Eldrazi, Various Stompy type builds)
Other (D&T, Elves, Dredge, Lands)

When people complain about format staleness - what they really want is more of "other" decks, but designing for other is hard. You need to come up with cards that can't just be used in the Cantrip Shell OR in the Ancient Tomb shell. The successful "other" decks are extremely idiosyncratic and unique.

Tomb decks don't really have the numbers to merit a different category from Other imho. It's basically all cantrip cartel, with elves/D&T as the next most played deck i believe at 4%? Tomb is way below that, and even in the full Eldrazi winter i believe they hovered around 10% at most.

Ah and btw WotC decision to restrict decklist is such garbage tier concern whine.

[Cire]

Tomb decks don't really have the numbers to merit a different category from Other imho. It's basically all cantrip cartel, with elves/D&T as the next most played deck i believe at 4%? Tomb is way below that, and even in the full Eldrazi winter i believe they hovered around 10% at most.

Ah yeah, of course, the categories aren't equal. Far from it. The Cantrip/Fetch shell would be almost the entire game, the rest will be "Other" and Tomb shell is the rest. The point was that's generally how decks are built in legacy.

Step 1: Choose your kill
Step 2: Does your kill fit in Cantrip/Fetch Shell, if yes go to Step 3A, if not go to Step 3B
Step 3A: Fill in the remaining spots of your deck with either more threats and/or more protection
Step 3B: Does your kill fit in Tomb Shell, if yes go to Step 4A, if not go to Step 4B
Step 4A: Fill in the remaining spots of your deck with either more threats and/or more protection
Step 4B: Your kill apparently requires a strategy that CANNOT fit into a Cantrip/Fetch Shell OR a Tomb Shell, Fill in the remaining spots of your deck with either more threats and/or more protection.

My point is that is the general ORDER of deck building in legacy. If you CAN run Cantrip/Fetch you do, if not, if you CAN run Tomb you do, if not, you're playing an idiosyncratic deck which is completely unlike ANY other deck in legacy. Look at the decks that are "Other" - Enchantress, elves, dredge, D&T, lands, pox, etc - they might have similar strategies to other decks but they look and run cards completely different than any other deck other than themselves. That is not to say they are a smaller percentage of decks than tomb decks, they are not, but generally when a new card presents itself people first try to stick it into a Cantrip/Fetch shell then they think of putting it into a stompy or some chalice type deck and only then if it doesn't work do they think of whether it deserves a completely different set of cards around it.

[Mr Miagi]

Should Leovold have been white?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...tiverseid=3549

He definetly shouldn't be blue..

[CptHaddock]

He definetly shouldn't be blue..

I don't really understand why he is green either other than him being an elf. I think the last time this topic came around someone pointed out that if he had been any other colors he would have messed with the legendary creature cycle that they had in conspiracy 2.

[Megadeus]

My problem with his is his one sided chains ability. Like at least there would be some sort of downside to playing him in a blue deck with 8+ cantrips if he were like all the other chains variants. Cards with actual downside or restrictions to deck building to get a powerful effect make for interesting deck building decisions. When it's one sided it's just incredibly lame

[Fox]

The idea that the Non-Game of "Ritual x3, Tutor, Pif, Tutor, kill you" on T2 is any different from the non-game of "Canonist, go" is artificial. The non-game of S&T "Lol I win" isn't much different from the non-game of "CPriest eot" except that the latter in each case is a weaker strategy that requires a bunch of supporting cards to not still lose. The idea that the non-game of Dredge where basically no decks win G1 isn't a balancing factor to the fact that it still usually loses G2 and G3 is because it's a one-trick pony.

I don't know that I really buy that assessment. In both cases the former requires multiple different pieces to win where the hatebear deck taps 2 lands and deploys a one-card combo that needs zero support to win a game (b/c it says opponent can't win in such and such manner and will take 2 per turn). I get that a fair deck has the most terrible feeling losses if their opponent goes SnT -> Omni -> Emmy (could also be SnT->Grisel), but that's always going to be harder to assemble than "I tapped for 2 mana and they couldn't win b/c I played a single card." Every deck in legacy has to have the right supporting cards, but hatebear decks are silver bullets...and it's always going to feel better to get locked out by a deck with deliberate proactive design which assembles a multi-piece prison (specifically in a format where they don't get to have a playset of Workshops). The fact of the matter is a fair deck in legacy will never have to face a Leyline/1-drop/2-drop card that has text like: "creatures can only enter the battlefield from the graveyard" or "as long as there is only one spell on the stack, it is countered" - and even if they did have to face it, it probably wouldn't simultaneously put them on a 10 turn clock. This isn't really a fixable problem though, sadly the old days are gone and "you can't win like that" cards no longer have cumulative upkeep or other sustain text, nor do that have drawbacks. A deck like SnT is a one trick pony, but hatebear decks are merely a pile of different one trick ponies.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Don't know where else to post this since it isn't really threadworthy yet but the August pro tour next year is team constructed so legacy pro tour lol.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...lds-2017-07-19

That's surprising but cool (as long as it isn't used to manage the format at all....). The commentary should be hilarious at least.

[CptHaddock]

Don't know where else to post this since it isn't really threadworthy yet but the August pro tour next year is team constructed so legacy pro tour lol.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...lds-2017-07-19

That's surprising but cool (as long as it isn't used to manage the format at all....). The commentary should be hilarious at least.

Oh nice, I hope this means that we'll see some bannings (eh on this) & unbannings (preferably) in the near future to promote Legacy as a format. I can hear the modern babies crying already seeing modern being back in the spotlight.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

To be fair to them this did not go well for modern last time haha. Kinda silly that there is no explanation for why modern is back on the schedule despite all the problems with it being exactly the same still.

[H]

To be fair to them this did not go well for modern last time haha. Kinda silly that there is no explanation for why modern is back on the schedule despite all the problems with it being exactly the same still.

Probably mostly PR. Standard is not at all popular right now and no one is excited about it at all. Modern, despite "having issues" is more popular than ever, from what I've seen of attendance figures.

[Dice_Box]

Well look on the bright side, if you have money spare you can start buying shit now with near on no risk. Yay.

[Lemnear]

I agree that cantrips don't play nicely with CotV. But I was talking specifically about fetchlands. Aggro Loam is probably the best CotV deck in the format, and it would suck without fetchlands. Lands I would not characterise as a "Chalice deck", but it certainly leans on the card a bit is certain post board situations.

In Vintage, FoW and Dark Ritual were listed seperately as pillars and still get played alongside more often than not.

Chalice is a SB card in Loam variants atm and merely are an anomaly like the deck itself is.

[CptHaddock]

In Vintage, FoW and Dark Ritual were listed seperately as pillars and still get played alongside more often than not.

Chalice is a SB card in Loam variants atm and merely are an anomaly like the deck itself is.

When was FoW a pillar? The 5 pillars as I remember them were Ritual, Shops, Bazaar, Drain and Null Rod.