All B/R update speculation.

[maharis]

Oh, the apostasy!

Brian DeMars · Writer at Channel Fireball

Benjamin Rodgers it's theorycraft - so nothing is "always" right, but I see it as an observable trend. When delver wasn't the best - it was because miracles existed. Miracles is a prison deck and we saw the xerox prison dynamic there.

[Mr. Safety]

@morphberlin: Its boring, beatable, but very good ATM. I think the format right now allows room for some interesting deck choices to beat it. I look forward to the cycle returning of fair blue decks dominate > mid-range decks beats up fair blue decks > combo beats up mid-range decks > fair blue decks beat up on combo decks.

EDIT: Fairly sure someone piloting Dredge will come out of left field at a fairly large event and bust some nuts in the near future.

[Barook]

But don't take my word for it...

https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...the-best-deck/

For the most part, everything in Magic is contextual. Cards don’t exist in an abstract vacuum—they exist as pieces or cogs in decks that work toward winning the game.

When I say Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand are “too good,” I mean that it doesn’t matter that they are objectively worse versions of Ponder or Preordain because they still function to enable Turbo-Xerox-style decks in Modern, albeit less streamlined versions.

Although we live in a world where 1-mana “selection cantrips” exist, I would argue that these cards were all mistakes from a design perspective. I acknowledge that they are fun and people enjoy them (which is a great counter argument to my position that I accept), yet their existence tends to drive their formats down a very predictable and linear path toward Turbo Xerox decks.

The problem with these cards is a mana issue. 1 mana=1 card is a fine rate. The problem with these cantrips is that they replace themselves and they create options. Serum Visions provides three options and a card for 1 mana: the card you draw, access to either the top two cards of your library during your next draw, or the third card down if the top two are not what you want. It also lets you plan your next turn with information about the next draw step. It lets you keep land-light hands. And Snapcaster Mage gives the player the option to create more options in later in the game.

I’m not advocating one way or the other about whether these cards should be legal—I only intend to explain “why” these repeated trends occur across formats. The nature of Turbo Xerox in Modern explains precisely why Death’s Shadow has risen to become the established “best deck” in Modern.

It really makes you wonder why R&D has never released cheap cantrip hate in the same way they bombarded the shit out of the GY with a plethora of hate.

Seriously, all card draw hate cards 2+ mana, with the exception of Mental Misstep (which was aimed at Brainstorm, but turned out to be a piss-poor design). It's only logical that the hate cards are outmanoeuvered by cheaper "threats", just in the same way creatures do when Standard has shitty, overcosted removal.

[Sigar]

A green or white 1 mana dude that prevented any player from drawing more than 1 card a turn would be pretty sweet. Don't know if it would be too good though. Spirit of the Labyrinth is just not good enough.

[Megadeus]

Oh, the apostasy!

Brian DeMars · Writer at Channel Fireball

Benjamin Rodgers it's theorycraft - so nothing is "always" right, but I see it as an observable trend. When delver wasn't the best - it was because miracles existed. Miracles is a prison deck and we saw the xerox prison dynamic there.

Not only that, it got the powerful end game of a prison deck but it got the turbo xerox power of 12 cantrips to filter

[CptHaddock]

So aside from the usual Brainstorm debate, I started to play MTGO some weeks ago and Grixis Delver seems to really have a strong hold as the clear best deck in the meta there to a point where I don't see a reason not to play it if you want to win as much as possible (other than it being dull as hell). Any thoughts on this?

I don't think it's the best deck in the format, it's certainly tied with 4c Control as one of the best decks. Playing on MTGO makes you realize how foolish it actually is to play a deck without 4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder.

[Megadeus]

I don't think it's the best deck in the format, it's certainly tied with 4c Control as one of the best decks. Playing on MTGO makes you realize how foolish it actually is to play a deck without 4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder.

Even our weekly local events at this point are telling me that. I generally go 3-1 no matter what I play, but the 4-0's are almost always Grixis or Blade decks.

[Noctalor]

No other card invalidates entire colors as well as brainstorm...

A long time ago, when a card was restricted in vintage it was banned in legacy.
Since that no longer holds true, why can't we restrict cards in legacy?
It would also be easy to unban several seemingly broken cards but also restrict them to see how they impact the metagame.

Restricted in legacy is honestly just a stupid concept.

Swear to god because my opponent draws his mono force and i don't won't really help the game.


Restriced is in vintage pretty much only because they cant really ban the p9, but allow a full playset of such cards would mean having 90% of the decks without lands and ending the game on turn 1

[Dice_Box]

That's a solid article from 2004, I was on hiatus then. Since 2004, they created and sanctioned an entire format where every card is restricted...

Wizards did not create EDH and the format became what it is without them. They don't even control it, as the bans in the format are decided independently of Wizards.

While they absorbed it for profit, they don't "Sanction" it. The format is it's own beast. When they did try and control it, removing it from the online space in lieu of their own specialised attempt at the format, the reaction forced them to reinstate it.

Also, something that might sound odd but is true: EDH is extremely consistent. I play Gitrog right now. If I open with Dakmore Salvage I win. If I use any one of my many tutors to find it I win. If I draw into it I win. Having access at will to any one Legendary creature in the game allows for a level of consistency unseen in Legacy, even with mostly singleton cards.

[Ronald Deuce]

Also, something that might sound odd but is true: EDH is extremely consistent. I play Gitrog right now. If I open with Dakmore Salvage I win. If I use any one of my many tutors to find it I win. If I draw into it I win. Having access at will to any one Legendary creature in the game allows for a level of consistency unseen in Legacy, even with mostly singleton cards.

Yep; Brago is also insane, and he's stupidly easy to build around. Of course, one problem with the format is that it's almost impossible to deal with commanders satisfactorily without D- Standard superstars like Imprisoned in the Moon. Sort of inspired me to build something to slap the format in the face. (I never run out my commander; I just like having five colors to mess with. Been thinking of switching from Atogatog to General Tazri for added zaniness. I'm not running any Atogs or Allies.)

Do you think that level of consistency would be achievable without "The Command Zone?" I actually think that's less a feature of the format than it is a pitfall.

[apple713]

Yep; Brago is also insane, and he's stupidly easy to build around. Of course, one problem with the format is that it's almost impossible to deal with commanders satisfactorily without D- Standard superstars like Imprisoned in the Moon. Sort of inspired me to build something to slap the format in the face. (I never run out my commander; I just like having five colors to mess with. Been thinking of switching from Atogatog to General Tazri for added zaniness. I'm not running any Atogs or Allies.)

Do you think that level of consistency would be achievable without "The Command Zone?" I actually think that's less a feature of the format than it is a pitfall.

consistency is a feature of the format because of the efficient cards allowed. Some decks use command zone but its not really necessary to achieve deck consistency in the format. I play 5c hermit druid and don't care what my commander is. I'd play this deck vs any legacy deck any day cause its more powerful imo. The only time i really lose in 1v1 is drawing poorly or opponent gets faster hand and i don't have disruption. These things are a product of card games in general tho. In 4 player games it's different.

[Dice_Box]

Do you think that level of consistency would be achievable without "The Command Zone?" I actually think that's less a feature of the format than it is a pitfall.

Not to the same level. I look at it like this: My first Demonic Tutor for half my combo is free, my second Tutor costs me the going rate. It isn't until I have to cast tutor a third time it becomes a hassle. If you take away free tutors, of course you will harm consistency.

But I don't feel like that is an issue. Building a deck with a budget or playing with a precon can be a lot of fun. You don't see so much of a pitfall in having access to a commander outside of the hyper competitive decks. I am looking right now at building a deck with a 100 us limit. Just so I don't stomp everyone around me all the time. It's actually really enjoyable. A throw back to the days I played Thorn Elemental and thought it was the best thing ever.

That feeling is really hard to find outside of commander.

consistency is a feature of the format because of the efficient cards allowed. Some decks use command zone but its not really necessary to achieve deck consistency in the format. I play 5c hermit druid and don't care what my commander is. I'd play this deck vs any legacy deck any day cause its more powerful imo. The only time i really lose in 1v1 is drawing poorly or opponent gets faster hand and i don't have disruption. These things are a product of card games in general tho. In 4 player games it's different.

While I don't disagree with you, as access to upward of 10 to 15 tutors in a tuned deck will let you do things like this, using your commander is still a good way to help. I run Druid in Gitrog, and when it triggers I likely win. But that doesn't take away from the benefits gained with that extra card always sitting in my back pocket.

[Barook]

For all those who argue that DRS doesn't deserve to be on the chopping block sooner or later:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/legacy

So DRS is currently in 47% of all Legacy decks online. So I took a closer look at all decks that run DRS. The kicker? ~95% of said decks that run DRS also run blue. It's about as blue as it can get as a card.

[LOLWut]

For all those who argue that DRS doesn't deserve to be on the chopping block sooner or later:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/legacy

So DRS is currently in 47% of all Legacy decks online. So I took a closer look at all decks that run DRS. The kicker? ~95% of said decks that run DRS also run blue. It's about as blue as it can get as a card.

There are a million reasons why you shouldn't cite that.

[maharis]

For all those who argue that DRS doesn't deserve to be on the chopping block sooner or later:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/legacy

So DRS is currently in 47% of all Legacy decks online. So I took a closer look at all decks that run DRS. The kicker? ~95% of said decks that run DRS also run blue. It's about as blue as it can get as a card.

You can't solve a blue problem by banning non-blue cards. Even if DRS is banned, the blue creatures are still better than non-blue equivalents in the context of the blue cantrip-fueled format. Taking out DRS may get rid of some of the greedier decks, but we will still be in Delver vs. U midrange land when it comes to fair deck choices.

From power level and ubiquity metrics, DRS is certainly bannable. But those clearly aren't the metrics used in Legacy because Brainstorm is still unbanned.

[CptHaddock]

There are a million reasons why you shouldn't cite that.

Yep, right now UBx is the most popular archetype on MTGO so there are a metric shitton of Grixis Delver/4c Control compared to other archetypes. So that number is based on the abnormally high amount of UBx decks and the limited amount of 5-0s they post per day.

[Barook]

You can't solve a blue problem by banning non-blue cards.

But that's exactly why I posted this because the arguement is flawed, in the same way "SDT mustn't be banned because it also helps non-blue fringe deck that make up like less than 1% of the total meta while Miracles dominates with it 3 years straight!" was. DRS is mainly abused by blue decks. What non-blue decks are left after that? Elves, and a few fringe decks like Maverick, Jund and Nic Fit.

A good chunk of the format is based on DRS + Brainstorm decks right now. While the numbers aren't exactly accurate due to Wizards' stupid bullshit, the latest Legacy Challenge Top 32 mirrors the same thing:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tourname...0799023#online

50% DRS decks, with a lone Elves deck (Julian), but the other 15/16 (93.75%) are DRS/Brainstorm based.

Banning both Brainstorm and DRS would be the best thing, but Brainstorm isn't going to happen anytime soon since the responsible people have a raging hard-on for that card.

Yep, right now UBx is the most popular archetype on MTGO so there are a metric shitton of Grixis Delver/4c Control compared to other archetypes. So that number is based on the abnormally high amount of UBx decks and the limited amount of 5-0s they post per day.

Question is: Why is the DRS/Brainstorm deck number so high? Probably because it's the best thing you can do in the format right now. You get a silly amount of flexibility, consistency and resilience out of it at minimum deckbuilding cost.

[keys]

DRS is mainly abused by blue decks.

Isn't Legacy mainly blue decks...?

[MorphBerlin]

Banning both Brainstorm and DRS would be the best thing, but Brainstorm isn't going to happen anytime soon since the responsible people have a raging hard-on for that card.

Welcome to Combo: The Format then

[Crimhead]

Taking out DRS may get rid of some of the greedier decks, but we will still be in Delver vs. U midrange land when it comes to fair deck choices.

D&T is DTB.

So I would say the fair deck choices are Delver, Blue Midrange, and D&T.
This is actually better options than combo or hard-control players have, especially considering how different UR Prowess is to Grixis Delvet; and UW Stoneblade is to Czech Pile.

I think the meta is fine, but maybe we'll get something new for Fish in the next block? Still hoping for a Recruiter Unban also.