All B/R update speculation.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

OMFG. I go away for a few years and come back to see that we're still talking about whether to ban Brainstorm?


Sigh.

[Gheizen64]

OMFG. I go away for a few years and come back to see that we're still talking about whether to ban Brainstorm?


Sigh.

OMG, busted card is still busted, why won't people just accept only blue mages get to play with busted cards??!?!?

Snip removed. Dice.

[Hrothgar]

How oppressive do you find that 5% of the meta? Tell me where it touched you.

This is not a % of meta question, this is a "sense of the card" and "good games" question, but maybe this is not clear and I try to explain, but this is impossible to understand for some player frustrated by blue, who find, in Chalice, a simply brainless way to beat blue decks.
Probe and Chalice are, in their substances, two stupid card who can give, to the player who play them, an incredible advantage in asymmetrical way.

All the decks who play probe, play Therapy in 75 (monored storm no obv) and, with Pyromancer (in Grixis Delver, ee), this make a too strong interaction who can destroy the opponent hand with no use of brain, just only reading the card in the opponent hand.
The 70% of times, there ere are no difference in player's skill for this Pyromancer+Probe+Therapy loop, and this is not a good Magic.

Deck with Chalice of the Void, too many times, have an incredible advantage just playing a solland and chalice in turn 1, transforming the opponent's hand in a mulligan at 2/3 with an asymmetrical advantage for the chalice player.
This is no good because of the opponent, substantially, do not play a mtg game many times.
Again, the chalice player gets an advantage in a passively way (with no use of brain), and this is not a good Magic.

Banning this 2 cards, there are no risk of an ANT explosion, because ANT losing the Probe (+ Therapy), and this means who storm player have other trouble (ee can't sack LED in response to a Probe and other tricks).

Oh, just noticed who Gitaxian Probe is a blue card

[Barook]

Deck with Chalice of the Void, too many times, have an incredible advantage just playing a solland and chalice in turn 1, transforming the opponent's hand in a mulligan at 2/3 with an asymmetrical advantage for the chalice player.
This is no good because of the opponent, substantially, do not play a mtg game many times.
Again, the chalice player gets an advantage in a passively way (with no use of brain), and this is not a good Magic.

That dismisses that Chalice decks are way more inconsistent and require deckbuilding skills and more mulligan decisions to compensate.

Besides, not being able to interact with Brainstorm (or cantrips in general) aside from counters isn't good Magic, either, since it only leaves lockpieces as other option to combat it.

[non-inflammable]

and this is not a good Magic.

It's only ever about Brainstorm. Not cantrips. Not blue; just Brainstorm.

Ban Chalice and Brainstorm and that's fine by me. Anyone Else?
Now, what to unban?

[Dice_Box]

The topic of Chalice has been interrogated in a few places. Here, one of the Brainstorm Show threads, the Eldrazi thread. I can't be arsed making all those points again. If you want to read that I can find some links later.

On a related topic I played Stax tonight and it was good. I had a lot of fun, enjoyed myself massively. It's actually quite complex too. I won a game thanks to a choice made by my opponent in the face of Stax. Playing with the thought you might draw x, tutoring for y, playing Stax and knowing what to sac and when. It's not exactly Go, but it's not at all brainless

Oh and of you don't want to lose to a specific card, don't play a deck that loses to it. I play Lands a ton, I lose to Bloodmoon. Meh, that's life.

[Mr. Safety]

Just a thought, which I'm sure has been hashed out many times before: would Brainstorm be that great if we *only* had Brainstorm? With up to 12 good cantrips (Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain) AND having Gitaxian Probe, is the specific card Brainstorm a problem or is it that we have so many redundant Brainstorm-like effects? I suppose that brings up sorcery vs. instant, which is kind of where I wanted to go, but more just a question of specifically what Brainstorm does vs. having functionally up to 12 pseudo-copies of the card available for your deck. Is the effect busted or is the redundancy busted?

Would tempo/control players just slot in Ponder/Preordain if Brainstorm wasn't available? Would they play Brainstorm/Preordain if Ponder wasn't available? I don't think Preordain is at a power level that it would be banned in a vacuum. Straight up, Ponder sees more cards. Straight up, Brainstorm with a fetchland is the most similar to Ancestral Recall.

Note: I love brainstorm, I love Chalice, I love DRS, I just plain love the format. I don't want to see any cards banned. I think a few cards can be unbanned. I would love to see what Mind Twist could do for the format. It would create tension in the mid-game, but most combo decks get in under the mana requirement before it becomes back breaking. I suppose Pox would love it.

Has Memory Jar been discussed? I know I'm likely missing something, but it doesn't seem that dangerous to me. I mean, Reforge the Soul is in the format and barely playable. Both cost 5 mana, both essentially discard a hand (and in the graveyard is much better than in exile) and draw 7 fresh cards. The only deck I remember it being played in was the Megrim combo deck. Mana Vault, Tinker, Mystical Tutor, and Yawgmoth's Will were all in that deck (all of which we can agree will likely stay banned.) Is Memory Jar dangerous by itself?

[Fox]

@Raizen884 I don't think Brainstorm does much for the solvency of legacy's "Blade" decks (actual Blade, Shardless, Czech Pile). All these decks do pretty much the same thing and do not hold onto lands in hand to shuffle away with Brainstorm; which means they aren't ever really going to have a hand that can be improved by Brainstorm. Ponder is a much better card in decks like those given their need to assemble 3-4 colors while probably also trying and get away with running 2-4 basics.

@Hrothgar there are plenty of cards in legacy that are a load of poorly designed bull; but that doesn't mean they should be banned. I don't think anyone is going to rise to the defense of legacy's TNNs, Leovolds, Chalices, SnTs, etc... While they are not particularly fun to play against, nor particularly thought-provoking, they lack power level issues. You go down the path of banning annoying cards because of their uninteractive, non-game making and it's unclear where you stop. Technically we should keep tagging on cards like Decay, Boseju, Vial, and Cavern as they are some of the largest uninteractive offenders. The uninteractives of legacy collectively perform the more vital role of checking the effect of the truly overpowered cards - and that's really necessary when WotC doesn't seem to get that they need to ban the truly overpowered stuff. Probe definitely has the power level problems, and it remains pretty horrifying that at no point during the Cruise/DTT era did they ever get that Probe was the largest enabler (both of those ones almost certainly had to go, but we should have seen them in action in a Probe-free legacy first).

Had they actually banned Counterbalance and Probe at the same time over SDT, legacy would have been better off in the long run but in the interim Probe [i.e. SnT, ANT, Probe/Therapy Pyro decks] is a much better card to have shaping the meta. While still overpowered and easily ban-worthy on power levels, Probe does not force everyone to play the uninteractives of legacy. Your post @Hrothgar only works if WotC can be trusted to stop the overpowered stuff such that we don't need the poorly designed stuff (the uninteractives); otherwise your making two points that don't really work together. When it comes to Chalice it's important to remember that a necessary evil is still evil - being a miserable card to play against isn't a high enough bar for banning.

[Icapica]

Just a thought, which I'm sure has been hashed out many times before: would Brainstorm be that great if we *only* had Brainstorm? With up to 12 good cantrips (Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain) AND having Gitaxian Probe, is the specific card Brainstorm a problem or is it that we have so many redundant Brainstorm-like effects? I suppose that brings up sorcery vs. instant, which is kind of where I wanted to go, but more just a question of specifically what Brainstorm does vs. having functionally up to 12 pseudo-copies of the card available for your deck. Is the effect busted or is the redundancy busted?

Redundancy matters, but I feel it's less important for Brainstorm than for the other cantrips. What sets BS apart is that it allows you to get rid of unwanted cards already in your hand. A bit too many lands in your opening hand? Drew Terminus and unable to cast it right now? Multiples of the same Planeswalker? Got your one critical threat or answer in hand and the opponent casts Thoughtseize? Brainstorm solves a lot of issues that other cantrips won't help with.

Has Memory Jar been discussed? I know I'm likely missing something, but it doesn't seem that dangerous to me. I mean, Reforge the Soul is in the format and barely playable. Both cost 5 mana, both essentially discard a hand (and in the graveyard is much better than in exile) and draw 7 fresh cards. The only deck I remember it being played in was the Megrim combo deck. Mana Vault, Tinker, Mystical Tutor, and Yawgmoth's Will were all in that deck (all of which we can agree will likely stay banned.) Is Memory Jar dangerous by itself?

Someone else will probably find a lot better arguments, but what immediately comes to my mind is that artifacts are easier to cheat into play and also reuse.

[taconaut]

Does everybody here who objects so strongly to Probe + Therapy also hate Thoughtseize? Outside of the Flashback (which I understand is pretty great in grixis) GP + CT is basically a thoughtseize that makes your mulliganing decisions more difficult. Plus, sometimes even us awful probe players have to play a blind therapy! It's possible I'm bitter because it seems like they enjoy banning cards I like, but I really don't get the issue with Probe.

[kombatkiwi]

actual Blade, Shardless, Czech Pile... All these decks do pretty much the same thing and do not hold onto lands in hand to shuffle away with Brainstorm; which means they aren't ever really going to have a hand that can be improved by Brainstorm. Ponder is a much better card in decks like those...

I thought the series concluded with "Phasing 2: Errata Boogaloo" but apparently we get a new installment in the saga of "is Fox a troll or actually just huffing paint thinner 24/7"

Literally any hand can be improved by Brainstorm, before you even consider deck-specific things like shuffling away equipment that your Stoneforge was going to find anyway, or putting Ancestral Vision on top to cascade into...

I wonder why these decks always play 4 Brainstorm but often play 3 or less Ponder? Really makes you think

edit
@taconaut if it was just a build-your-own thoughtseize then it would be fine:
- If you draw 2 of any individual card then probe+therapy against you becomes some kind of absurd duress/mindrot hybrid
- The first copy guaranteed to hit (with probe) and the second copy flashed back 'for free' with strix/snap/pyro etc is certainly more powerful than just thoughtseize
Remember that in some storm decks (not sure on the current split but it has definitely been the case in the past) many players chose to play e.g 4 Therapy, 2 other discard spell or a 3-3 split, not 2 Therapy 4 Duress, for example, and these decks couldn't even reliably flash it back!
I don't personally think Probe is banworthy atm but I would definitely consider it more obnoxious than Thoughtseize.

[taconaut]

I wonder why these decks always play 4 Brainstorm but often play 3 or less Ponder? Really makes you think

I think Fox acknowledges that brainstorm is the best of the cantrip bunch, they're just saying that if your deck is basically a goodstuff pile anyway, if brainstorm is banned, it's not a lynchpin for them in the same way it is for ANT, former miracles, other combo decks, the more tempo-oriented delver strategies, etc.

[CptHaddock]

Does everybody here who objects so strongly to Probe + Therapy also hate Thoughtseize? Outside of the Flashback (which I understand is pretty great in grixis) GP + CT is basically a thoughtseize that makes your mulliganing decisions more difficult. Plus, sometimes even us awful probe players have to play a blind therapy! It's possible I'm bitter because it seems like they enjoy banning cards I like, but I really don't get the issue with Probe.

No, Thoughtseize/Blind Therapy requires my opponent to actually commit something in order to interact with me. Late game both of these cards are pretty close to dead draws. Information is so powerful in this game and gitaxian probe basically gives free information and replaces itself.

[Fox]

Does everybody here who objects so strongly to Probe + Therapy also hate Thoughtseize? Outside of the Flashback (which I understand is pretty great in grixis) GP + CT is basically a thoughtseize that makes your mulliganing decisions more difficult. Plus, sometimes even us awful probe players have to play a blind therapy! It's possible I'm bitter because it seems like they enjoy banning cards I like, but I really don't get the issue with Probe.

If the deck playing GP/CT is a fair deck which is going to kill you with creatures the game is already over if their opener is Probe -> Sea -> Therapy and you had any duplicates in hand. That farce of a game will go on for ~7 or so turns, but it's already over. Then next turn they can probably flash it back for 0 mana, but more realistically it'll be turn 3 when Pyromancer gets the token to make the play.

Probe used to be more busted when it was also a pay 2 life, perfect info, draw a card to replace, and Lotus Petal (thanks delve) all in one. Probe has never been a problem card because of ANT/TES; it's a great card there and annoying to play against, but having a shell where the card is okay doesn't change the fact that it easily creates non-games, where skill is largely meaningless, when combined with SnT or Pyromancer.

[Ephemeron]

Probe used to be more busted when it was also a pay 2 life, perfect info, draw a card to replace, and Lotus Petal (thanks delve) all in one. Probe has never been a problem card because of ANT/TES; it's a great card there and annoying to play against, but having a shell where the card is okay doesn't change the fact that it easily creates non-games, where skill is largely meaningless, when combined with SnT or Pyromancer.

I'll state up front that I think Probe is a stupid card. I also agree the Probe/Therapy shell is fine in Storm decks and doesn't feel oppressive. Where I disagree is that when you add Pyromancer to the mix it suddenly becomes too powerful. That's, essentially, a three card combo which will make you discard 1-3 cards and get a 1/1. I don't really think that's too powerful of an interaction for Legacy. Yeah it's really good, but all the decks in legacy do broken stuff in their own way when everything comes together.

[taconaut]

I don't really think that's too powerful of an interaction for Legacy. Yeah it's really good, but all the decks in legacy do broken stuff in their own way when everything comes together.

This is what I'm saying - things that should be banned are cards like skullclamp, flash, tinker, etc, truly broken cards, not a cheap Peek.

Also, the difference between probe + therapy and just therapy is one elemental if they have a pyro in play and know what cards in your deck they care about/are half decent at naming - are people just hoping their opponents are just awful? The person playing therapy also still has to commit a card/has potential dead draws, it's not different than thoughtseize in that regard (and thoughtseize is guaranteed to hit, unless your hand is already a pile of lands).

This is another card where I feel like people are mostly arguing from a "I don't like it when my opponent does X" perspective, rather than a "this card is format warping/broken/etc." Again, I super hate it when my opponent leads off with a turn one chalice, it's dumb as hell, but I still don't think it should be banned. Some people like to play chalice, they should totally get to! sometimes us cantrip players need to get goosed once in a while! conversely, sometimes people are gonna see your hand of tireless trackers and siege rhinos, it's all Legacy.

[Fox]

I'll state up front that I think Probe is a stupid card. I also agree the Probe/Therapy shell is fine in Storm decks and doesn't feel oppressive. Where I disagree is that when you add Pyromancer to the mix it suddenly becomes too powerful. That's, essentially, a three card combo which will make you discard 1-3 cards and get a 1/1. I don't really think that's too powerful of an interaction for Legacy. Yeah it's really good, but all the decks in legacy do broken stuff in their own way when everything comes together.

The issue is more that Probe will always be at the center of the controversy, which means it's enabling the controversy, which indicates that it is overpowered. The presentation of the controversy can have many faces (DTT's delve mechanic/plus or minus SnT or Sea/Therapy/follow-up token generator), and you can pretty much count on Probe to continually threaten to find new card/interaction combos to add to that list. Just like Counterbalance it's either a problem or a latent problem, and the cost is best understood in terms of diminished format diversity. So while Probe doesn't currently stop people from playing magic in whatever style they want (now that TC/DTT are banned), it's always going to try and decrease format diversity.

@kombatkiwi when asked to demonstrate how current status effect rules (before token change) did not also perfectly navigate Mirage phasing to the phased-out zone, you failed quite comprehensively. You have demonstrated a pattern of talking about topics you clearly don't understand or have no interest in understanding. Congrats on fitting in the personal attack; but now that we're past that, we're actually discussing Brainstorm and the link @Raizen884 drew between it and 4c control's [aka "Blade" aka good stuff pile] place in the meta atm.

[Sidneyious]

OMFG. I go away for a few years and come back to see that we're still talking about whether to ban Brainstorm?


Sigh.

Hell I think 90% of this topic is about a brainstorm ban.

[Megadeus]

When a card is very clearly the best card in legacy and it's in 70+% (closer to 80% in GPs) of course it will be talked about

[Sidneyious]

So are lands? Maybe we should ban those too.