Here what can be done with parallax wave + starfield:Originally Posted by Hmmm_Really?
If Starfield is activated: classic big combo if no sterling grove. If there's exactly 5 enchant including a sterling grove: sac to phyrexian tower with all parallax activations on stack for permanent exile.
Without starfield:
+ deed to 4, put all your parallax activation in stack for permanent exil
+ Eternal witness, you can use your 5 counters to exile witness and 4 other creatures. During your upkeep, wave dies, witness come back and give you back wave that you can cast again.
More @ the Nyx-Fitters
For reference, I've moved away from Leap (coin toss) to this list. Better certainty and redundancy, imho. And I'm 2-2 vs Storm, so there's that.
- Why Spirit of the Labyrinth rather than Chains of Mephistopheles? Budget? I get it can be tutored by Recruiter but it dies to a puff of wind.
- Arguments for or against Replenish in the SB, coming in against grindy countermagic in the later game?
Lands
2 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
3 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
Spells
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Dovescape
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Living Plane
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Sterling Grove
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
Creatures
4 Academy Rector
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness
2 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Veteran Explorer
Sideboard
SB: 1 Cruel Reality
SB: 1 Ground Seal
SB: 1 Cast Out
SB: 1 City of Solitude
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium
(Edited for grammer/spilling)
----
"What if they're already dead, Sergeant?"
"Then kill 'em again, you numpty. Kill them dead. Don't kill them alive."
Spirit also kills people. The decks you side Spirit in against either run Decay/Chain of Vapor (in which case it doesn't matter) or want to save their removal for Rector if at all possible.
Don't bother with Carpet, since Miracles is way less common now and awful against Leovold.
I don't think you need Living Plane if you have Dovescape. They both do the same thing (close to hardlock) but plane is slightly better at locking while dovescape does more on its own.
I think Cavern of Souls is probably better than Replenish if you are worried about counter heavy decks.
Not a Replenish fan since some of those grindy opponents will bring in graveyard hate. I've seen surgicals, spell bombs, rest in peace brought in. You don't want sideboarding that effectively doubles down on commonly hated strategies imo.
I'm surprised that souls + leap wasn't consistent for you... Enjoying the playset of souls myself, helps in a LOT of match-ups.
I jammed about 25 matches last week, so not a very high sample size, admittedly. I was 8 vs 17 against both fair and combo decks. Ouch. When I needed a Rector, Leap flipped a Vet. When I needed a Vet, it flipped Sigarda. Too much "coin toss" variance for me. I'm happier with GSZ, backed up with Diabolic Intent (love that card with Dryad) and Recruiters, to get the right card at the right time.
@Navsi, backup and redundancy and backup and redundancy ;-)
If Plan A goes fubar, with Doomwake and Curse Death together with Living Plane and Dovescape and Splendor, I still have two more angles for the hard lock. Plan B is Starfield and Plan C is the redundant card. And in the mid game, in non-blue situations, they're castable without Rector. Options, options, options.
Regarding Chains, I'm happy if they waste their Vapor on it. If they have a choice, they go for Aegis or one of the six Leylines that came in, no?
----
"What if they're already dead, Sergeant?"
"Then kill 'em again, you numpty. Kill them dead. Don't kill them alive."
There is an article on CFB regarding BUG Fit.HTML Code:https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/blue-nic-fit/
It is a low to the ground low CMC Nic Fit deck. Wonder what are the thoughts of the wider Nic Fit community on his list.
One thing that is nice about running Recruiter and Intent instead of Evo leap is that you don't have to build your deck around it. Not that I hate Lingering souls but this deck is already soft to actual GY hate, such as RIP, and having a plan B that isn't sounds like a good idea.
It kinda feels like a deck with an identity crisis. Does it want to be BUG Delver, or does it want to be Nic Fit?
It probably has a better combo MU than most lists, but will struggle w/ D&T and other grindy MUs. I'd also rather have -1 DRS, +1 Veteran Explorer in that particular list.
For some unrelated news on my own list - Vizier of the Menagerie is out. I'm turning it into a second Tireless Tracker.
Next card I'm having doubts about is Meren of Clan Nel Toth (now that I finally have a foil copy of her, dammit). I haven't used her in a long, long time and haven't wanted to GSZ her for the longest time either. I'm unsure of what to do with the slot though. Do I want another Eternal Witness, or do I want to try a Ramunap Excavator which does somewhat the same when combined w/ Dryad Arbor and w/ the amount of fetches I run will surely help get out all my lands. I mean, w/ 3 Mirri's Guile, a Sylvan Library, a Courser of Kruphix and 2 Tireless Trackers dropping (fetch)lands starts to matter quite a bit.
Last edited by Echelon; 09-04-2017 at 03:09 AM.
I am reposting Tomas Vlcek's post, since it passed by without anyone giving it the deserved notice.
Anyway, Tomas was kind enough to throw us a bone a while back, so I tested his list and I can confirm that it is the best BUG Nic Fit list I have played to date.
However, I came to the same conclusion as the CFB author - fun deck, but not good enough to be competitive. Personally I felt like it tries to play the 4c Cz Pile game in a different (worse) way.
Bottom line, it does not have the classic NicFit oompf, but it is rock solid as far as consistency goes.
Good point Crush, nice to have it reposted as things get buried by new posts quickly in this thread. I don't have the answer, but the BUG Reanimator Fit list I occasionally play uses Reanimates with 1-2 stronger creatures to hopefully get that extra oomph [edit: sorry, my misunderstanding, it was not desired], however the Reanimates usually translate into extra copies of Strix and Leovold so it turns out very grindy and probably very similar to how that list plays out. There is a core of cards you really want to play in BUG Fit. Maybe a Chameleon Colossus could bring it over the top, someone mentioned how well positioned it is in the meta a while ago (sorry, forget who) and that card is both relatively cheap and a potential 16/16 with evasion. I tend to use Grave Titan, the clock, and Glen Elendra Archmage, the presumed control and combo killer when coupled with Reanimate.
Last edited by pettdan; 09-04-2017 at 03:25 PM.
I also think the deck seems a bit iffy. If I were to play competiviteve magic against great magic players who are not all that familiar with Legacy I would expect less delver, less control (=decks that require good matchup and metagame knowledge) and more streamlined decks like Reanimator and Show and tell. Not playing countermagic main seems like a weird decision, especially if your only combo-hate is blind therapies.
Countermagic is also good when you havge a lot of mana, as you do in nicfit. The common usage of all that mana is to go over the top of other decks, but it could also be used to lay down a efficient threat, hold up mana for countermagic or removal and still play around daze.
It's not as much iffy but, as the others mentioned, lacks the oomph the more traditional Nic Fit lists have. It looks like it'll run like clockwork beautifully, but by doing so sacrifices the ability to brute force its way to a quick victory.
Hm, maybe we are missing something here. I now read the article too and actually neither of Koplinchen nor Ondřej Stráský (who is not Koplinchen, I'm guessing) have a problem with the finishers. Here are their comments again. This is his actual conclusion about the deck at the end of the article:
He's not actually commenting on the finishers but rather the deck's ability to stabilize vs tempo strategies, I think, and I guess fight vs combo.I've had a lot of fun playing Nic Fit this past week, but I think that's all it is—a very enjoyable deck. While you do quite well against other slow, grindy decks because you go slightly bigger, you struggle against the rest of the field. Even the other grindy decks can tempo you out from time to time. I've lost a bunch of games to a Young Pyromancer protected by counterspells drawn off the top after I cleared my opponent's hand with discard. So to sum it up, if you want to have fun, this deck is for you, but if you want tournament success, I'd look elsewhere.
And in the referenced post by Koplinchen above his comment is:
The backbone of the deck - veteran combo empowered by ponders, storms, stirxes leads a us to tracker+fetch or jace. And its not like that we have nothing to ramp into - stronghold+strix; mana for the clues; doing more things in the same round... Its not Grave Titan or some dragon but good enough against all those greedy 4c (Czech pile) decks.Changes I would make now – add Leovold for Tracker perhaps; Add Maelstorm Puls into the board to fight jace.
So actually, neither of these two players (they are not the same, right) see a need for any expensive finisher, Thragtusk is the top end in Koplinchen's deck and they both use Tracker and Jace.
I agree with the expensive finisher sentiment - they really are unnecessary. I've found the same to be true for Junk Fit. The problem then isn't necessarily the top end of the curve, but rather the (lack of) ability to transition from one role into another (as far as the tempo MU is concerned). And that's b/c most of the bodies they have don't have a big enough butt to create leverage over their opponents board. Strixes draw cards, but don't make dents in life totals and hence don't pressure your opponent.
Thanks for bringing that list up, great insights.
I am laying Grave Titan and Nissa VF main including the "finishers" they have. I believe the oompfh is taken by the massive amounts of U cards to support the sb FOWs. In paper I have completely given up on counterspells as they are simply just lackluster but Snapcaster Mage does quite a bit in gaining back tempo. I have also included the 1 off Wurmcoil Engine from my experiences with Sneaky Fit in the SB to make non-stp tempo decks sad.
Yup. That's why they don't have enough (big) butts to transition from being the control to being the beatdown. They keep being pushed into the control role, eventually run out of cards and end up getting trampled underfoot. It's how I win most of my games w/ Junk Fit - at some point my opponent is out of answers and gets crushed under a metric ton of Rhino butt (or I fall just a few butts short of a full crushing, that's the other end of it). By doing so I do kinda forfeit G1 vs. anyCombo though, unfortunately.
The BUG deck is built to abuse Tireless Tracker. He is the only bomb the deck needs (no Titans, etc.).
The card is very good and in my opinion underestimated in NicFit shells. With proper setup it will draw you 2-4 cards, which is enough to push you ahead.
The drawbacks of the deck are not the lack of oompf (this is merely a design decision), but it's slowness and setup requirements. The opponent can easily disregard a resolved Tracker and alpha strike you.
When I play 4c Pile, the deck just feels more robust and can achieve 90% of this decks game plan without any effort or setup, while being miles better at playing different roles if required.
With all that said, I encourage everyone to play with the above list and draw your own conclusions. The deck is good so it deserves to be developed further.
I think the BUG list above would be significantly better if it swapped Forces for Discard, allowing it to drop the blue count for more Trackers and Zeniths.
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emmisary of Trest
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Verdurous Gearhulk
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Fatal Push
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
sb::
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
While we're on the topic of low to the ground BUG lists, this was my take a couple weeks ago...I called it Salt Fit because I was particularly aggravated with brewing blockages when working on it. I threw it together and played a couple matches with it -- it definitely does well fairly well, but it's not really something I'm into. It plays very aggressively and it's very good at what it does. Zenithing VHulk with TNN(s) out is disgusting.
Just something to add to the conversation.
I didn't really want to make another post yet, but pettdan thinks otherwise since i 5-0ed a League on Magic Online. Ok, maybe that's something worth posting.
But i don't really want to spend this post going over my 5-0 League (i beat Sneak&Show, 2x Stoneblade, Lands and Tron) and rather look at the big picture:
I have been playing on Magic Online for 2 weeks now with my NicFit-Cloudpost-hybrid - well, actually playing for 1 week, since i took a break for some days after a really bad start and thought about what went wrong. It got better and i cashed my last 4 leagues going 4-1, 5-0, 3-2, 4-1. Overall just a small samplesize of ~80 matches so far, and the drop in winrate compared to xmage is very noticable, but it's still over 50% and i think it should get higher over time.
The list i played for the successful Leagues:
61 Cards Maindeck:
Lands (27):
4 Cloudpost
3 Glimmerpost
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Creatures (16):
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells (18):
2 Mox Diamond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Toxic Deluge
Sideboard (15):
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Lingering Souls
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
2 Pernicious Deed
Changes to my last posts:
1. I'm trying at least 1 Deathrite maindeck over the 3rd Mox (i was experimenting with 2 on xmage, by cutting a fetchland, but i went back on that change). This was initially a budget consideration for Magic Online, but i think it's actually better for the meta - very many slower blue decks, and i would usually board out the 3rd Mox in those games. (It's possible i even want something bigger instead, Deathrite isn't the best topdeck either. I'm thinking about Walking Ballista again.)
2. Im playing Toxic Deluge over Engineered Explosives in the board. Not sure about that, but it's probably fine - not many decks where i prefer Explosives over Deluge.
3. Im back to 2x Nissa in the board instead of 2x Swords to Plowshares. These are my flex slots, and the current metagame on Magic Online is rather low on Delver decks and high on other fair blue decks (and my winrate dropped far more against those decks than Delver decks, so i want more help for that).
For more than half of my matches i played 2x Thoughtseize in the flex slots in anticipation of more and better combo players. That change was very bad - it made me board out 2 Trackers against combo to make room, and i lost more than one game against a basically empty-handed Storm player who topdecked the perfect card, when i had Thoughtseize in hand for a while but not enough pressure to kill them fast enough.
Compared to xmage, the drop in winrate is very noticable (winrate on xmage stands at 73% over >400 matches).
What didn't change?
My winrate against fair non-blue decks didn't drop at all, i won every match against D&T, Maverick, Lands and Pox. It's just a much smaller part of the metagame.
My winrate against Delver is also pretty much the same (8-4 so far is fine).
What did change?
My winrate against fair blue midrange/control decks dropped significantly, from ~75% to ~50%. These decks are overall by far the largest part of the metagame.
My winrate against combo decks completely imploded, especially against Storm (not much samplesize against other combo decks). My winrate against Storm on xmage was >80%, now i'm 3-6 against it.
Reason for the drop in winrate, apart from bad luck (i think i was running really bad for the first few days) and bad play (i made too many small mistakes):
The difference in player quality is very noticable: The blue midrange decks are currently not only the most played deck, these are also the decks most of the top players are playing (whenever i recognized a screen name from videos or streams i had watched, it was a safe bet to put them on one of those decks). For combo on the other hand, at this point i think testing against that on xmage is just completely pointless - i think every Storm player i played against was miles ahead of almost every Storm player on xmage. (Every Storm player always played around Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog and went for Ad Nauseam, Storm players on xmage often don't even do that when they know i have Crop Rotation.)
I need more data for a real analysis. I definitely want to have a positive winrate against the blue midrange decks, and i'm not sure how to attack them - in general, the 12-post part of my deck should handle that, but they are overall aggressive and disruptive enough to stop that far too often. I'm confidant the deck can handle combo decks, i just have to get used to much better Storm players - more combo hate is not really an option, since that already backfired, the number of cards i can board out is limited.
However, the deck is definitely competitive. If i can hold my current winrate it's already enough to go infinite on Magic Online, and i think it should get higher over time, the last few Leagues have been looking pretty good, maybe i just needed some time to adjust.
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