[Deck] Death and Taxes

[grayryker]

You make K command less good by always thinking about which modes they would use on the board. Playing patiently so that they have to make you discard, or have to just tap a mom, or wait until you have vial on 3. Why isn't the matchup bad? Although they play a lot of removal and maindeck artifact destruction, they're still playing a pretty slow 4 color blue deck with a bunch of 3 drops and cantrips. That offers you a lot of angles to apply pressure, such as keeping them off colors or developing a board while they pay 2 mana to cantrip. They only have a couple huge threats, Jace and Gurmag. They're very weak to Rest In Peace. They're extremely weak to Cataclysm. It's even because it comes down largely to how well then half of the deck you drew counters the half of deck they drew.

Why I like Finks against Czech Pile is because many games that I've played where you have a SoFi or SoLaS in play and who wins comes down to drawing one more creature than they draw removal spells. Kitchen Finks acts as 2 creatures in this game. It is weak to Deathrite and to Snapcaster, but I'm just sitting throwing ideas out there. I like a lot of what Kitchen Finks does bring to the table. I think that looking for the best White Knight is barking up the wrong tree. Attacking for 2 a turn vs 3 a turn is huge. In matchups that aren't Czech or maybe Delver for the lifelink Knight, you'll be playing a 3 mana 2/2. It will be the worst card in your deck by far. Mirran Crusader is great because at worst he attacks for 4. Playing a significantly weaker creature to beat 1 or possibly 2 bolts does not seem good enough to me. I've also been running into way more edicts than I used to, which sort of takes away that one reason you ran a Knight (it's unkillable). I would sort of like a better threat against Delver, but I've yet to figure out what it is.

What I mean by solid sideboarding is having a sideboard beat with Czech Pile in mind and not falling into card evaluation traps. I initially was sideboarding like I was playing a creature light midrange deck, leaving in 2 plows etc. it's pretty tough to suss out how good certain cards are, such as I'm still not sure if Revoker is good and Serra Avenger is bad, or if Councils Judgement isn't actually terrible. The traps that I've seen people fall into are playing Palace Jailer against Czech, or even bringing it in. I've put Gideon's in my sideboard because I thought they were going to be slam dunks that solved the creature problem. Im really happy with my current sideboard plan, but I'm not sure if it's actually optimal.

Playing patiently is how you lose this match-up. Excessively playing around one card could easily cost you the game that you could have won in 2-3 turns earlier. There is no way to play around these things without hand information. I think you are severely underestimating this match-up. Pretty much any blue deck will out-draw you. Siding in 2 Rest in Peace is great except this deck lacks any cantrips to find them reliably AND it's not always going to be impactful if you draw the card late (e.g shaman already activated a million times, Angler already on board, etc.). I know some people disagree but Cataclysm is not a reliable card at all.

You're saying Finks is better than Crusader or Paladin En-Vec in this match-up? Attacking for 3 sounds great if you're in magic christmas land and your opponent has no creatures on board. Your argument for Finks is it's like 2 creatures in one, except the whole point of Crusader and Paladin is to stay alive so these are way better value cards. And with equipment in the equation, it's just not even close that their protection ability will be way more relevant on offense and chaining equipment combat damage. Without equipment, you actually have a way to get around all the Baleful Strix / Shamans and block Gurmag Angler. We shouldn't be playing Finks just to get around Liliana, when it's not even in couple Czech Pile lists.

Of course you don't leave in the plow. I haven't seen people do this yet, with all the redundant threats it seems somewhat common sense. It's the same reason you don't side in Palace Jailer but if you've seen such people, shame on them I guess.

On a side note, anyone who *really* wants to improve the Delver and 4C Control match-up could just replace Rishadan Ports with Ghost Quarter. Ghost quarter is equivalent to Wasteland in these match-ups and is just way better than Port which requires you to be ahead in mana. Considering decks like Czech Pile run 8 dual lands, filling your deck with 8 wastelands is basically crippling as they run no basics.

[WashableWater1]

Playing patiently is how you lose this match-up. Excessively playing around one card could easily cost you the game that you could have won in 2-3 turns earlier. There is no way to play around these things without hand information. I think you are severely underestimating this match-up. Pretty much any blue deck will out-draw you. Siding in 2 Rest in Peace is great except this deck lacks any cantrips to find them reliably AND it's not always going to be impactful if you draw the card late (e.g shaman already activated a million times, Angler already on board, etc.). I know some people disagree but Cataclysm is not a reliable card at all.

You're saying Finks is better than Crusader or Paladin En-Vec in this match-up? Attacking for 3 sounds great if you're in magic christmas land and your opponent has no creatures on board. Your argument for Finks is it's like 2 creatures in one, except the whole point of Crusader and Paladin is to stay alive so these are way better value cards. And with equipment in the equation, it's just not even close that their protection ability will be way more relevant on offense and chaining equipment combat damage. Without equipment, you actually have a way to get around all the Baleful Strix / Shamans and block Gurmag Angler. We shouldn't be playing Finks just to get around Liliana, when it's not even in couple Czech Pile lists.

Of course you don't leave in the plow. I haven't seen people do this yet, with all the redundant threats it seems somewhat common sense. It's the same reason you don't side in Palace Jailer but if you've seen such people, shame on them I guess.

On a side note, anyone who *really* wants to improve the Delver and 4C Control match-up could just replace Rishadan Ports with Ghost Quarter. Ghost quarter is equivalent to Wasteland in these match-ups and is just way better than Port which requires you to be ahead in mana. Considering decks like Czech Pile run 8 dual lands, filling your deck with 8 wastelands is basically crippling as they run no basics.

I do pretty well playing conservatively against Czech when the hand permits it. The only card I feel punishes you for going slow is Jace, taking an extra turn to set up a better position is totally worth it. Im talking from experience playing against it over and over in test games, leagues and paper events. I'm lifetime slightly favored but the matchup feels close to even

Czech now runs more Diabolic Edicts than Lightning Bolts, not to mention Marsh Casualties and Deluge. The narrative of those cards being immune to removal is a false one. Finks trades for two removal spells at best, and half of it trades for half a Snapcaster or Strix at worst. I'm not sure why Knights carry equipment better. They don't beat the "who draws more" problem. I think Crusader is probably the best card for that slot, I'm more interested in how a Finks can swing races against Delver. I couldn't think of much else that fit both matchups.

[grayryker]

I do pretty well playing conservatively against Czech when the hand permits it. The only card I feel punishes you for going slow is Jace, taking an extra turn to set up a better position is totally worth it. Im talking from experience playing against it over and over in test games, leagues and paper events. I'm lifetime slightly favored but the matchup feels close to even

Czech now runs more Diabolic Edicts than Lightning Bolts, not to mention Marsh Casualties and Deluge. The narrative of those cards being immune to removal is a false one. Finks trades for two removal spells at best, and half of it trades for half a Snapcaster or Strix at worst. I'm not sure why Knights carry equipment better. They don't beat the "who draws more" problem. I think Crusader is probably the best card for that slot, I'm more interested in how a Finks can swing races against Delver. I couldn't think of much else that fit both matchups.

Dude very few Czech Pile decks ever run lightning bolts because they favor a playset of fatal push. The deck is primarily Black and Blue, with small red and green splash, so a smart 4C control deck builder runs push over bolt. Diabolic edict isn't even in the same category as bolt but yes, many variants run ONE copy.

Nothing avoids an edict under the right conditions. But you're expecting a recurred 2/1 threat to be valuable? The value of Paladin/ Crusader is they can both attack through creatures and block them; they also don't die to virtually any spot removal from Czech Pile except the rare versions that run lightning bolt. With an equipment, they become exponentially more valuable. You either win with tempo or with card advantage in this match-up and Paladin/Crusader helps you enable this far better than Finks can.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

And what about this guy? Menace and flying that's tutorable. Obviously only in the red splash, but I like it there. Thoughts?

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[Medea_]

It's non-human, which makes it rough even in a red splash (assuming a Cavern-based manabase).

[colo]

Too weak to matter. Imo, these days, you need some form of built-in protection from removal to be considered for inclusion in D&T's main.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

@colo: That's not true at all. People play Serra Avenger; and what, is Mom just no longer good enough to fill the role of built-in protection?

I'm talking about using it in the same capacity as Kor Skyfisher (sans bounce) but being able to use the same Recruiter that grabs Flickerwisp.

@medea: Yes, I'm aware it's never coming in off a Cavern, but playing 1-2 Magus, 4 vial, 5-6 fetches and 1-2 Plateau (and I add a Mox Diamond as card 61 when I add a splash) seems like it's pretty reasonable to test.

Hopefully Iatee chimes in...

[grayryker]

@colo: That's not true at all. People play Serra Avenger; and what, is Mom just no longer good enough to fill the role of built-in protection?

I'm talking about using it in the same capacity as Kor Skyfisher (sans bounce) but being able to use the same Recruiter that grabs Flickerwisp.

@medea: Yes, I'm aware it's never coming in off a Cavern, but playing 1-2 Magus, 4 vial, 5-6 fetches and 1-2 Plateau (and I add a Mox Diamond as card 61 when I add a splash) seems like it's pretty reasonable to test.

Hopefully Iatee chimes in...

The card is bad. And not because it dies to removal like colo said, which kind of doesn't matter because every flyer in this deck dies to most removals.

The reason Serra Avenger is playable is because vigilance is 10x more valuable than menace when coupled with flying. Being able to have evasion + play defense against small creatures is huge. Playing a deck with small weenies means you'll run into a lot of situations where you have to play defense whereas this dinosaur is a purely offensive card (and a weak one at that). The extra toughness and power also matters on both ends of offense and defense. Even if it was just a single white cost, it would be too weak to play. It's a slightly better Storm Crow (with a harder casting cost)... let that sink in a bit.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Thanks for your response. I disagree with a lot of what you say; I guess this is no different. I guess I will just playtest and come to my own conclusions. Carry on, gentlemen.

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[WashableWater1]

I wrote up a quick tournament report on a 25 person EW trial (the hurricane kind of hampered attendance). Even though it was small I'm posting it because I wrote it up. Ignore it if you care that much!
Decklist:
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Karakas
7 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
2 Cataclysm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Rest In Peace

Round 1 - Czech Pile 2-1
Game 1. Lost. They were able to deal with my first couple threats, and by the time I was able to start developing a board I had taken too much damage from Gurmag and Tasigur to be able to come back. They had force for my Plow and a Bolt for my Crusader.
Game 2. Won. They kept a hand with 2ish lands and a couple cantrips. I was able to put down a Thalia, which they didn't immediately have a removal spell for. Stoneforge for SoFi and 2 Wastelands kept them locked down enough for an easy win.
Game 3. Won. I kept a slower hand. I played a turn 3 Prelate on 1 to lock out their removal and cantrips. Their mana was awkward enough that I was able to get the job done with 2 Serra Avengers.

-3 Revoker -4 Plow -1 Batterskull
+2 Rip +2 CJ +2Cataclysm +1 Prelate +1 SoLaS

Round 2 Lincoln Baxter Special, aka BUG Control with a lands package. 2-1
Game 1 - Lost. I kept a Cavern Vial Mom Thalia Plown type hand. After they Pernicious Deeded my board they got Loam online and had cabal pit and liliana to kill all my threats. I scooped to Cephalid Colloseum Leovold lock.
Game 2 - won. I kept one land double Vial, then never drew any lands. I was able to push through damage with Thalia and Crusader a turn or so before they could get anything really threatening going. RiP was in play the whole game and was great.
Game 3 - won. He kept a hand with awkward mana. I was able to develop a large board presence while he tried to get his deck to work, and he died before he could draw out of it. He ended up needing to play Jace as a Fog. Wasteland was an all star. RiP was great at shutting down Deathrite and Snapcaster.

+2 Cataclysm +2 RiP, +2 CJ +1 Prelate (Prelate was probably wrong)
-3 Revoker, -4 Plow,

Round 3 Burn 2-0
Game 1. Win. I keep a vial double mom Stoneforge hand. He kills one mom, kills another, but the EoT Stoneforge for Batterskull wins it.
Game 2. Win. I mulligan to 5. I play mom into Stoneforge. It's good enough. He was a newer player and told me that he wasn't prepared for the matchup.

-3 Revoker -1 SoFi
+2 CJ +1Prelate +1SoLaS

Round 4 Dragon Stompy. 2-1
Game 1. Win. I mulligan to 5 and keep plains plains Karakas 2 Flickerwisps. He makes a turn 1 Chalice. I play Karakas and he plays a blood moon. He ends up stuck on 2 mana while I kill him with 3/1s.
Game 2 lost. I keep a slow hand with a bunch of 3 drops and got overrun by a Chandra. He has Abrade for my first Revoker, Fiery Confluence for the second, and I'm not able to attack it down before it ultimates.
Game 3 win. he mulls to 5 and I play turn 2 Thalia. I beat him down with random idiots while porting and wasting him to death

+2 Cataclysm +2 CJ +2 Path
-4 Mom, -1 Prelate, -1 Mirran Crusader

Draw round 5 into the finals. Could have drawn my last round but I didn't do the math.

Quarterfinals Lands 2-1
Game 1. Lost. I keep a really slow hand that does nothing. I play moms revokers and Stoneforges, but I lose to a fast Marit Lage. I could have kept up a Plow instead of equipping sword, but I was on autopilot and didn't play around Crop rotation for that one turn. My bad.
Game 2. Win. I mulligan to 5, keeping 2 Plains mom Prelate Avenger. I leave a plains on top. I am able to flickerwisp a Marit Lage, which was all his hand did, and win quickly.
Game 3. Win Keep a 6 that has 2 cataclysms that I never need to cast. He opens with a Molten Vortex with no Loam. He never progresses past 3 lands.I have a Path for Marit Lage, Vial in an EoT flickerwisp to remove his Vortex then beat down with a second flickerwisp holding a sword until he dies.

+2 Cataclysm +2RIP +1 Prelate
-2 Stoneforge -1 Jitte -2 Crusader

Semi finals: Grixis Control. 2-0
Game 1. Win. I have a Vial Port draw. He pushes my mom, then bolts my Stoneforge which got a SoFi. I play SoFi on my turn 3, then EoT Vial in Recruiter for Crusader thinking he's on Czech. He waits until I equip ony turn to K Command SoFi, so I am able to protect it with a flickerwisp. He cantrips into air and the game ends quickly.
Game 2. Win. He had T1 Deathrite. He bolts my Thalia, my other Thalia, then snap bolts a Flickerwisp. He plays out a Tasigur and a Leovold. I play a Cataclysm, he ends up keeping DRS and a Badlands while I keep a Vial and a plains, sacrificing a Flagstones. I lay a third land and then I lay out a SoFi. The next turn I play Crusader equip. I kill him with a sword on a Crusader very quickly.

-3 Revoker -4 Plow -1 Batterskull
+2 Rip +2 CJ +2Cataclysm +1 Prelate +1 SoLaS

Finals: Split.

All in all I loved my build and my play. I misplayed hard and lost at least one game because of it. Cataclysm still ruins people's days, I felt mostly confidant with my boarding. I got lucky in getting mostly good matchups or matchups that favor the more familiar player.

[WashableWater1]

Thanks for your response. I disagree with a lot of what you say; I guess this is no different. I guess I will just playtest and come to my own conclusions. Carry on, gentlemen.

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My question regarding that card is this: why is it better than Leonin Skyhunter or Selfless Spirit?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Do you just not agree that swinging through a single flyer to get jitte/sofi activations is worth something? I mean, that's how it's better than Skyhunter. Furthermore, it's an x/2, which means it lives through DoN, which selfless spirit (and most other creatures in DnT) do not. Selfless Spirit isn't a contender for this deck in my humble opinion because he is only good in silly situations where you have seemingly overextended. I have only had incredibly overextended board-states in the mirror or vs. Elvesfor the most part, and it doesn't seem like a game-changer in those MU's, as board wipes aren't really a thing in those matchups.

I understand he doesn't seem like much, and granted he doesn't do anything for the Mono-White builds, but my thought is that in non-Imperial W/r Taxes (I dislike imperial recruiter due to him being unable to tutor Flickerwisp, as well as his imperial price tag), he is worth running in the Kor Skyfisher slot. I understand he doesn't bounce, but I think I'm okay with just the double evasion with basically guaranteed equipment triggers while being fine against Delver.

Obviously I could be wrong, and I am happy to acknowledge that, but he feels like value, and I guess I'll let you know how he pans out for me.

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[grayryker]

Thanks for your response. I disagree with a lot of what you say; I guess this is no different. I guess I will just playtest and come to my own conclusions. Carry on, gentlemen.

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If you disagree, feel free to point it out what you think I'm wrong about.

Your argument seems to revolve around "he can always get equipment triggers" and that's a weak point. Why? Because having menace on a flyer is complete overkill when evasion will get the job done 90%+ of the time. Placing the card in a very theoretical scenario "if he has one Delver + he has no removals + I have Jitte equipped to this creature and really need the trigger, this card is awesome" is, I would argue, proving it's a bad card. In most cases, he is just a worse flyer than Kor Skyfisher, Vryn Wingmare, Flickerwisp, and Serra Avenger. I probably wouldn't expect Menace to be relevant in 1/100 games; what I would expect is the casting cost and 2 power/toughness to matter in far more games and therefore, he actually might even be worse than Leonin Skyhunter which is a terrible card. Like I said, the vigilance on Serra Avenger is actually a deal breaker and not a mere novelty when racing creature decks like TNN decks and the mirror. The 3 toughness means you can't recruit it but it means Serra Avenger is one your best cards against Lands and other punishing fire/ molten vortex decks. Also, you should consider evaluating this card without any equipment on board... then it's also quite obvious it's mediocre.

If he was easier to cast than any of these creatures, he'd still be bad but he's arguably harder to cast this an any of them even in a red build. That in itself should be a deal breaker.

On a side note, selfless spirit is not really suitable for DnT considering most boardwipes are counters based. But it's still better than the dinosaur. It's not only a board protection but also the indestructibility is relevant in combat, as you can block with all your creatures and sac before combat damage. Not saying you should play the card though...

[LyleCInDaHouse]

legionslanding.jpg
adantothefirstport.jpg
What do you guys think of this as tech against Czech Pile? Once you get the land flipped, you can fart out a dude every turn to deal with their spot removal. Plus they have lifelink which could be reliant against burn and U/R Prowess/delver. I think its worth testing.

[iatee]

You can't expect to attack with 3 creatures against a deck filled with removal.

[colo]

If you really think you need the token-producing effect, Kjeldoran Outpost will probably do you more good than this. (Also combos with Magus of the Moon now. Yay!)

[LyleCInDaHouse]

If you really think you need the token-producing effect, Kjeldoran Outpost will probably do you more good than this. (Also combos with Magus of the Moon now. Yay!)

"combos" with magus of the moon. Sure, now I don't have to sacrifice my plains so long as I turn of the card im playing with my own moon effect. Such synergy.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

@greyryker: I'm uninterested in squabbling, I simply said I disagree, thanked you for your opinion, and said I would test it. I'll leave it at that.

Perhaps I'll bring it up again when testing shows a consensus one way or another.

There's a good chance that this fulfills a need for me that others don't feel they have.

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[Medea_]

legionslanding.jpg
adantothefirstport.jpg
What do you guys think of this as tech against Czech Pile? Once you get the land flipped, you can fart out a dude every turn to deal with their spot removal. Plus they have lifelink which could be reliant against burn and U/R Prowess/delver. I think its worth testing.

There are more reliable cards that do the same thing for the czech pile matchup. Gideon, AoZ is already in the deck filling that role, and you could go to things like Heliod, God of the Sun if you wanted something they couldn't take off the table.

[kombatkiwi]

Does the new 1/1 Vampire enter the Mystic Crusader / Fiendslayer Paladin discussion?

Adanto Vanguard 1W
Vampire Soldier
As long as ~ is attacking, it gets +2/+0
Pay 4 life: ~ Becomes indestructible until end of turn
1/1

Similarly to the other cards:
- It's immune to Bolt/Push/Kolaghan's Command/Decay
- You can recruiter for it
- It can attack into everything (Strix, Leo, DRS) that isn't a TNN and win (I guess Mystic Crusader can fly over that if you have threshold).

Pros
- Only 2 mana
- Maybe in other matchups indestructibility is more useful than color protection (like the mirror, but maybe Mirran Crusader is better there)
- Immune to Kozilek's Return, and I guess Walking Ballista (although that card will probably make you run out of life very quickly)

Cons
- Dies to Dismember/Marsh Casualties/Dread of Night
- Not a human (although Cavern on Soldier might be okay in some spots)