That's what I think. My GB list always had a scrubland so that I can play the best combo hate available in the side: canonist and teeg.Originally Posted by Arianrhod
White was the best color during the eldrazi winter, thanks to path, Dromoka (a card I have not felt the need to play for a long time), and of course rhino.
My main deck for the past 4 weeks or so has been an Excavator build of Maverick. It doesn't work as well in practice as it looks like it does. There's been few situations where I want to GSZ an Excavator to get a Wasteland over just getting a Knight to Wasteland and become a bigger threat.
I think that if you intend to run Excavator, it should just be to ensure your mana development works out to the point where you can start dropping bombs.
What do you think about Grim Flayer in place of the Dark Confidant slot? Not too keen on shelling that much at the moment but Flayer's price tanked a lot and there's debatable upside to using him over Bob. Also might make Traverse more attractive also since you'll pretty much immediately enable delirium if you get a hit in.
I've been playing Grim Flayer in Modern and I don't think it's good enough. The point of Dark Confidant is that it can generate value in board stalls, and generate even more value when you're ahead. Grim Flayer generates no value in a board stall, and lesser value when you're ahead. 4/4 is also a bad size to be in Legacy because you lose to everything: Batterskull, Sword weilders, Baleful Strix, Tasigur, Angler, Goyf, and so on.
Dark Confidant is much better, and it's not even close. I think I'm playing too many by playing 4 though, for whatever that means for your wallet. For a long time I only played 2 and it still helped a lot. I think that budget substitutes for Bob are Ranger of Eos (not even bad to play alongside Bob), Sylvan Library alongside a bunch of lifegain cards, or Stoneforge Mystic. SFM has had issues with Kolaghan's Command lately, but there's probably an answer to that somewhere (I've always been a fan of Display of Dominance... this could be where it becomes playable), or alternatively you play BUG for Strix/Jace/Nissa... but given the price of blue duals that's an even more expensive route to go.
Last edited by Brael; 09-15-2017 at 08:18 PM.
Other two mana options include:
Night's Whisper
Full playset of Trackers and more ramp (Arbor, more DRS)
Elvish Visionary + Wirewood Symbiote
Spirit of the Labyrinth + Geier Reach Sanitarium possibly?
Not saying they're good but might be worth considering as options. I think Library is worth testing more. Hopefully Grixis dies down in the meta a bit and we can play more equipment and use SFM for card advantage.
If you're going the elf route, you might as well just play elves.
I think Sylvan Library alongside DRS, Ooze, Kitchen Finks, Courser, Baloth/Rhino, and Thragtusk has some potential.
Last edited by Brael; 09-15-2017 at 08:20 PM.
In that way, Apostle's blessing or Faith's Shield are better IMO
Those don't kill Jace, Liliana, Back to Basics, and Omniscience.
That said, I still don't think it's good enough... but it will get there one day.
It has :D. Drew 4 cards in 1 game once, vs. D&T. I love it when they StP Rhinos.
4 cards is a bit weak, unless you mean 4 in one turn.
4 cards is 16 life. I'm sorry if I can't get behind your statement. Seems strong to draw 4 extra cards in one game off Library.
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We were referring to a situation where all your creatures gain life. In such a scenario, getting only 4 cards is definitely a bit weak.
In Echelons situation specifically, his Rhino at an StP, so that Rhino was good for 7 life, which is two cards off Library on it's own.
Took the BUG list to Legacy Masters at UK Nationals today. 104 players. Went 5-1-1 overall, making top 8,which I am very happy with. Report and list:
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Baleful Strix
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Distended Mindbender
1 Elder Deep-Fiend
1 Primeval Titan
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sylvan Library
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lost Legacy
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 To The Slaughter
1 Collective Brutality
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
Round 1 - Infect
Lose die roll. Game one I keep Deed, Zenith, Therapy, Jace, lands. Opponent makes Glistener Elf, Dazes therapy, Invigorates for 5, Dazes Zenith, Invigorates for 5 again.
Game two I kill a Glistener, he finds an Inkmoth. I make a Strix but it eats a Viridian Corrupter and I take 5 off an Invigorate. Leovold blocks Corrupter and goes to 1/1, I have a Deed for inkmoth and Strix for the follow up Inkmoth. I make a Tracker and close the game out.
Game three he makes a Glistener - I Therapy and see a slow hand without pump, but with a Needle. I flashback, he Brainstorms and hides the Needle, so I make Jace and fateseal it to the bottom. I trade resources for a bit and he dies to an Ashaya token and a Tracker.
1-0
Round 2 - Miracles
Game one I put some pressure on with Tracker but have to spend a lot of resources dealing with Jace. Eventually I am topdecking and he finds a Mentor and cantrips to kill me. I had the two towers and used them to recur Leovold repeatedly, but didn't cost him enough resource to stop him eventually getting Jace out - should maybe have been drawing more naturally - I had a Library - than just trying to stick Leovold.
Game two I grind a bit with Leovold and Strixes - I get to take a Jace with Therapy - and Lost Legacy his monastery mentors. I land a Nissa and start ticking her up, protecting her from his Snapcaster with a Deed and make Emrakul. It eats a Terminus but I get his turn and leave him with zero resources (brainstorm him into lands, shuffle his stuff away, etc). He cantrips into a Jace, but I have the To The Slaughter, and ultimate Nissa for lethal in the first turn of time.
1-0-1
Round three - Death and Taxes
He makes a Vial. I Therapy and miss, but get two Stoneforges on the flashback. I get Ported a bit. Eventually he has a Mom with a SoFI on it and only an STP in hand, to my Strix, 5/5 Ooze, Explorer. I screw up and sacrifice multiple creatures to emerge Mindbender, taking his STP, but by the time it is realized we are too far to back up. I end up Deeding the board either way, and beat down for lethal with a Mindbender and an Ashaya.
Game two he has a Stoneforge and all his equipment in hand - I take the Jitte with a therapy and am able to use Jace to bounce the Batterskull token. Jace dies to a Thalia on the crack back but buys enough time for me to sweep the board somehow - I think Deed. I Zenith Witness and recur Deed and force him to bounce batterskull, then Therapy it away. Elder Deep-Fiend, Tracker and Leovold finish the game.
2-0-1
Round four - Burn
He opens with Mountain, Lava Spike, which is definitely a declaration of intent. I get an Explorer and a Deathrite, and Decay his Goblin Guide. He has another one and a Swiftspear - I double block the Guide, using drs to gain some life. I Brutality some of his stuff away, make another Deathrite, and legend rule my own Leovold to get a body to gain more life with drs. Leovold beats down while I fateseal fireblasts away with Jace and I finish the game while on 2.
Game two I eat more Guide damage and some from a Swiftspear, Therapy double fireblasts out of his hand, make some Strix blocks and get it back with Pulse of Murasa. He Flame Rifts me back down to 7 but I'm able to find a Deathrite and start eating creatures to stabilize. Jace fateseal a mountain to the top of his deck and knowing he can't kill me, I get to tap out and make a Tracker and Ashaya to lethal next turn.
3-0-1
Round 5 - Czech Pile
We both make Leovold but he is able to get rid of mine and brainstorm with his Jace a couple times before my Strixes kill it. I jam Tracker and make some clues while he is tapped out but it eats a Push when he untaps. I start to stabilize at 11 but he burns me out with Bolts and DRS.
Game two I miss my third land drop and he makes Liliana LH into Jace into Tasigur. I stay alive with a couple Strixes and manage to find multiple Explorers before slamming Emrakul, but his Lili is ready to ultimate. My mindslaver turn kills Jace and Tasigur and gets Lili off ultimate, but I can't kill him from 14 through a Strix blocker and I get burned out by DRS and bolt + Kommand. This guy finished top of standings and undefeated in the Swiss, incidentally. I think maybe I should have attacked DRS into Emrakul to kill it rather than Tasigur, though he could rebuy it. Might have also been wise to swing Emmy into Liliana to kill her, even through Strix.
3-1-1
Round 6 - D&T
He makes Revoker on Deed, which I get to Decay, and I am able to kill his Mirren Crusader with Deed. He makes Recruiter into Flickerwisp and suits it up with Sword of Fire and Ice - I dont have removal for it and it can swing past my Strix and kill me.
Game two he has a slow hand with Mindcensor, Recruiter, Vial. I therapy the creatures. He draws Mirran Crusader but I kill it with a Deed. Then I Zenith Witness to deed his next stuff, and Pulse of Murasa Witness to Deed him a third time, then beat him down with Elder Deep Fiend (which is fantastic against Mirran Crusader by the way). He has a Gideon to my Nissa, but I can sweep everything but EDF and swing in to kill Gids.
Game 3 he makes Mirran and I choose to therapy his Mindcensor rather than immediately Deluge. He has a second port and puts me to 2 available mana and makes a Thalia HC, so I need to topdeck specifically a basic to sweep his board and stabilize at 8. O draw Island and kill all his stuff, then make Leovold to turn off his Ports and beat down for the kill with Leo and Ashaya.
4-1-1
Round 7 - Storm
Game one I get probed and have Explorer, Jace, EDF, and lands. He goes off on turn three and kills me.
Game two I make a Drs. He probes and therapies me, so I Surgical his probe since otherwise he will take it. The other option was Brainstorm - turns out he has another brainstorm in hand. I draw a Zenith and make Leovold. He Chain of Vapors it when I attack, but doesn't realise I haven't played a land yet and I can replay him. He durdles for a bit and Leovold and Deathrite kill him before he can go off.
Game 3 my 7 is Explorer Explorer Witness Fetch USea Surgical Surgical. He ponders off a Petal to find land turn one and I Surgical his Petal. I beat down a bit. He Ad Nauseams off two rits at the end of my turn. I have Clique, so when he stops at 5 I take Dark Ritual with Clique, Surgical his Cabal Ritual s and leave him with gas but no mana in hand. He has to Chain of Vapor Clique to not die next turn - I witness Surgical, take his Dark Ritual so the only mana sources in his deck are LED and lands, and he can't go off and dies.
5-1-1, 4th in standings.
Top 8 QF - Lands
Game one he makes Diamond, Waste, pass to start. I make some Explorers and a Tracker. End of my turn two he Crop Rotations for Stage, untaps, plays Depths with Stage activation up. I have Brutality to go to 22 and Jace to bounce after the swing but he has Punishing Fire to finish me off.
Game two I Therapy Exploration turn one and hit, but see Drop of Honey, Taiga, Maze, Depths, Stage, Stage. He topdecks Exploration and makes Marit Lake end-of-life my turn three. I dig a load with Tracker but can't find a Strix or a TTS or any other interaction, so I die with a Surgical and Lost Legacy in hand.
I know, I've been following along. That means he paid 9 life for 4 cards (2 and 1/4 life each) unless he gained more life than that. It's my opinion that most games, drawing 1-2 extra cards combined with the filtering trigger is often enough to pull ahead in grindy games long enough to get a win, or drawing a couple extra cards off the first trigger in aggressive/combo matchups/late game gan either win the game or lose it, just depends on what relevant cards you draw. With that in mind, 4 cards is double what my average use of the card has been, granted it was in Junk/Shardless, but the grindy nature of the 3 decks make me believe that the function and rewards are similar enough to draw the conclusion I have.
I have learned that you should be patient with library, drawing extra cards only when not doing so results in only one of two situations: You losing 4 or more life for not doing so as long as doing so stops that specific loss of life or will help repair/replace what that initial action took, OR when it loses you the game for not doing so and doing so will stop you from losing.
There are pros that have written about library and their lack of self-control losing them games because of their inability to restrain themselves from drawing cards that don't really impact the game in a way worth the 4 life paid.
Library is probably pretty close to as difficult to play as Brainstorm is.
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Great job @Navsi! Interested to hear any more developments on that emerge bug list.
I took Nyx Fit to a Team Trio Constructed event where we had 5 rounds. Managed to go 3-2 personally which is the same as how our team went. Beat U/R Delver, Ruby Storm, and Lands. Lost to Sneak/Show and TES.
U/R Delver - opp either never chose to grab basics from vet trigger or did not realize he could. I announced the trigger each time and chose not to ask which was the caseReally gives an advantage and I had time to setup Souls for blocks until Rector could do her thing. Dovescape for burn protection seals the deal very well.
Ruby Storm - game 1 I really thought I was hosed since I lacked early disruption. Then topdecked gas to allow me to turn 3 Dovescape. I play forest, pass. Opp plays Rite of Flame -> Ruby Medallion. I play Evo Leap, pass. Opp plays a Mountain, passes. I play Vet, Phyrexian Tower, sac Vet, cast Rector, Leap into Dovescape. Game 2 I had early disruption and a turn 4 Rector trigger again for Dovescape. We traded birds for a few turns until I found GSZ to make a ton, then Eternal Witness it back in hand to make more.
Lands - this version of nic fit has got to have the easiest time with lands. Game 1 they setup Exploration/Loam and try to GQ me out of the game while digging for Tabernacle on account of my 4 attacking spirits. I keep up land counts with vets until I finally find a Rector for Splendor, they realize they can't cycle/wasteland/GQ/stage/depths and die to spirits before they can dig up enough Groves to matter. Game 2 I Swords his early Tracker and then Therapy for K Grip (miss), Rector for Cruel Reality and take the Gamble out of his hand, leaving him with not much gas. He dies a few turns later to Cruel. He could have Crop Rotated for Bojuka Bog on the Rector trigger, but I had another Rector in hand.
Yay for opponents not understanding how Vet or Rector work.
Sneak/Show was pretty close. Won game 1 due to his Emrakul sacrificing my Rector and finding Splendor. Game 2 was a long drag and I had probably a dozen library turns but just wasn't finding much of anything after I'd disrupted him with Therapies. He lands a Sneak attack and has the Force if I'd been able to find a Rector. Game 3 I keep a poor hand and draw 2 extra Veterans but no further lands or Therapy. He has Echoing Truth for my Rector.
TES not much to say, didn't have great disruption early on game 1, and game 2 I keep a risky double Leyline of the Void, GSZ, 4 lands and proceed to draw 4 or 5 more lands before finding Rector...screwed up by sacrificing Rector in a way to give him a ton of doves + goblins. Probably should have waited to see how he goes off and then just grab Curse of Death's Hold to wipe his guys at end of turn. I should have waited to see if he Burning Wished, turns out he just had Empty in hand.
That makes for 18-12 record with the recent version of the deck, hovering around 60% though I know that 30 matches is pretty small sample size. I'm curious to try possibly 1-2 Secure the Wastes as an instant-speed token producer. Has some advantages over souls, some disadvantages but I think it could really catch some people off-guard. Otherwise might try the bug list I posted a page back once the walker changes take effect.
@Navsi: Congrats!
On Library - after the 4 draws I was @17 life. 2 Rhinos ate an StP that game.
We're your draws out of need to keep parity or were they on the luxurious side?
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Mostly a luxury. Somehow I still managed to lose that game though. Missed a winning line I should have seen and paid for it.
Awfully quiet in here, guys.
I'll take the opportunity to update you on my Cloudpost-Nic Fit experiments. I played Leshrac's Cloudpost-Nic Fit-hybrid in another local weekly event, this time going 3-0-1 and in the draw the opponent was at 1 life and totally behind on board, facing 26+ damage next turn.
Changes I've made since the last run was putting 2 Lingering Souls and 2 Collective Brutality in the maindeck, losing some Eldrazis, some Mox Diamonds and a Crop Rotation and adjusting the mana base. I tried a light Enlightened Tutor board but didn't need it in the matchups.
Wins were vs Grixis Delver (I think), Czech Pile and Miracles; the draw was vs Eldrazi, but it felt like a win in practice. He was facing Primeval Titan and Depths + Stage, he had chump blocked with all his creatures to stay at 1 life after trample damage was dealt, I had Toxic Deluge in hand and another couple of cards and he was pretty low on lands I think, not getting mana from Ancient Tomb.
Otherwise I felt like I was a bit lucky in these games, and they should be pretty good matchups so that helps too. Like the final win vs Grixis Delver was in turn 5 of time, with 5 spirit tokens flying over his Gurmag + Leovold + Deathrites and then Walking Ballista shooting him down from 4 to 0, letting him draw 4 cards but not being able to interact. Vs Miracles my starting hand was 2 Lingerings Souls which is of course very good vs that deck, also he played Counterbalance and I managed to play around it, with some luck involved too. And he didn't draw a Blood Moon or Back to Basics in game 2, which I was very exposed to (had to fetch duals to get mana for Lingering Souls). And in the final games vs Eldrazi he had a very slow start in g1 and played a Chalice @2 which let me use Crop Rotation to grow my Tracker huge, on the other hand he totally ran me over in g2.
So, so far that makes it 11-4-1 if I'm correct. It feels better than most versions I've played (well, may be luck or meta) since it can both win quickly with Depths, interact quickly with combo through Crop (and Mox Diamond accelerated Gaddock), gain supreme card advantage (well not compared to Brael's list, still) with Trackers (powered by Crop + Posts), alternative ramp engine in the Posts. Hard hitting with Titania + Primeval Titan, going wide with Lingering Souls, Ballista that is early interaction and late game bomb when coupled with post-mana. But it seems a lot of versions are working relatively well now, based on the recent posts, which should be a reflection of the fair (?) meta overall.
Previous posts on the topic:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1023451
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1022559
Edit: made a few small updates. And another couple, sorry!
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