All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

If Wizards was ok watching Miracles drag its heels for the better part of 3 years without issue, there is no one 12 months of DRS is going to force action.

[Crimhead]

If Wizards was ok watching Miracles drag its heels for the better part of 3 years without issue, there is no one 12 months of DRS is going to force action.

I think there is a real possibility that WotC's attitude to eternal format management is changing.

[rlesko]

Lol, ban delver.

I have been saying for a while deathrite is a bannable card. Its just now getting the format penetration to show how stupidly busted it is. If you're concerned about what nonblue decks will do against GY combo, don't be. The graveyard is the most hated area in all of magic, and there are main deckable cards like scooze and countless SB options.

If you were going to ban a blue creature, true name nemesis would be the best one to ban. Complete violation of the color pie, was a commander card anyways, and promotes uninteractive magic. People might actually have to dust off their tarmogoyfs.

[Dice_Box]

I think there is a real possibility that WotC's attitude to eternal format management is changing.

I am not sure. I know we have seen a lot of change in Vintage of late but that is to do with a sudden influx of data. If you put 150 people in a room, just thanks to the amount of cardstock available there will be a limit on some decks. Online does not have that issue and thus we have seen changes we would not have seen without the new meta. As for Legacy I have seen no large change in Wizards actions of late. Action against one card that had a large weight of evidence against it is not what I would view as much of a change in their management. Unless you see something I don't, which is not unlikely since I am spending less time on magic since work picked up, I am not sure much has or would change.

[Claymore]

Wizards is likely putting all their energy into Magic: the Hearthstone anyway. They only banned Top because people starting putting signs in their parking lot, problem became too big to ignore.

No way they ban anything.

Closest we got to a ban was the release errata on Hostage Taker. Which, you know, is another sign of how incredible Wizards is doing right now.

[Crimhead]

I am not sure. I know we have seen a lot of change in Vintage of late but that is to do with a sudden influx of data.

The reason WotC is getting so much more data is that there are a lot more people playing eternal formats than ever before. WotC seems very keen to capitalise on this - hence the increase push of Masters sets.

I think the question we should be asking is why Legacy and Vintage have traditionally been exempt from the "fun policing" that they impose on Modern; and do those reasons still make sense from a business perspective?

[btm10]

The reason WotC is getting so much more data is that there are a lot more people playing eternal formats than ever before. WotC seems very keen to capitalise on this - hence the increase push of Masters sets.

I think the question we should be asking is why Legacy and Vintage have traditionally been exempt from the "fun policing" that they impose on Modern; and do those reasons still make sense from a business perspective?

Because Legacy isn't/wasn't a Pro Tour format. Even now that it'll be part of the Team Pro Tour, I doubt that they care enough. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see bans to shake things up from a purely personal perspective (and to eliminate some noxious cards like Gitaxian Probe and Show and Tell), but no action is justified based on actual results, and most people would be hurt by bannings to pseudo-rotate the format.

[H]

Legacy (and Vintage, to a certain degree) are able to adapt to most shifts in the meta-game via it'd deeper card pool. It takes a lot to have a deck keep it's top position, like Miracles, in the face of repeated great performances. Miracles was able to keep itself outside of the "natural" cycle of the meta-game through a combination of factors, not the least of which was the resiliency of Top itself and the printing of Monastery Mentor.

More often than not, Modern cannot adapt in the same way, because there are numerous holes in it's card pool that could help to contain problematic strategies. For example, the lack of Wasteland leads pretty directly to the success of Tron-style decks, where Ghost Quarter is a rather poor substitute. Other examples can be Force of Will, or even Deathrite Shaman.

In other words, without the pressure of a Pro Tour to consider, Wizards is generally apt to allow the meta-game "police" itself.

[taconaut]

...Gitaxian Probe...

BOOO

...Show and Tell...

YEAH GET 'EM OUTTA HERE

But actually though, I think this is a good distinction to make - Gitaxian Probe and Deathrite Shaman strike me as powerful, but ultimately reasonable cards, which is what we (or at least I) want in legacy - they are very strong, sure, and in a way that is generic enough to warrant their inclusion in many different decks, but one is a cantrip and the other is soft graveyard hate/ramp/decent threat in a pinch.

By contrast, Show and Tell is very unfair, and breaks the rules in a more fundamental way. Plus, it can only get dumber as the game goes on and wizards continues to print nonsense duders to put in with it (though I'll admit Griselbrand and Omniscience are already pretty high bars for dumbness level).

I feel like bans should only happen in a format like legacy when there is something that breaks the actual nature of the game, not merely for cards that are "best in class," so to speak.

(Aside: I do have some level of cognitive dissonance with this, as I enjoy Storming people, but somehow the texture of that feels different than, "show and tell, griselbrand, plus I have the force" to me. I guess I would like the opportunity to do broken things, but at least sufficiently complex broken things?)

[Rekk]

Legacy is ruled by decks that abuse deathrite or abuse the decks that use deathrite (bloodmoon decks).

Aggro deck - grixis delver
Control - Czech pile
Combo - Elves

It's either on the boundary of what is acceptable or banable
what is undeniable is that it is format warping

Show and tell is a fine card- not fun really (and horrible game design) but really it's just a very very very good ritual.

[morgan_coke]

I'd say ban it all. Just clean up the format.

Brainstorm
Gitaxian Probe
DRS
Delver
TNN
Leovold
Show and Tell (the card itself is fine, the level of big dumb monster/spell they continue to print makes it broken)

Do that and you'll have something interesting to play again.

[taconaut]

Show and tell is a fine card- not fun really (and horrible game design) but really it's just a very very very good ritual.

Yeah, I'm not saying it needs a ban, just that it fits the archetype of "bannable card" in legacy, in that it messes stuff up in a fundamental way, rather than merely being very powerful. Personally, I think the card could be fun - if someone Showed, like, a Draco, or Krosan Cloudscraper, or Polar Kraken, or Thing From the Deep, or whatever dragon/demon/cool guy, it might be pretty sweet, and I've had fun when people cast it in EDH - but in actual practice it's just stupid griselbrand or emrakul or something else that wins you the game on the spot.

[Problem4tic]

My little opinion, unban everything except moxes, black lotus, timetwister, ancestral recall and time walk, wait 6 months and then let's see how it goes...today i can see only "fair" decks using deathrite shaman do more broken things than unfair decks...
Some cards in the legacy banlist are innoque nowdays... something has to change...drs is "killing" the format imo...

[apple713]

Play combo decks and then dont give a fuck about drs. Sure hes good but so are alot of legacy cards. If you are losing to him play better cards. Legacy is a format that is not short of really good cards.

[Fox]

Eh, keep in mind that DRS is used in diverse ways. I think a lot of people gloss over Stifle/Wasteland you out of game that would happen with DRS banned - and probably most DRS haters intrinsically rage about no lands/can't play magic even more. The card is great and it enables a ton of strategies, which points to it being a healthy card. It also stacks up quite poorly vs SCM/StP further enabling white to be played if 2-3 other colors are scrambling to include it.

The only really annoying part of the card is being on the draw vs DRS and knowing that no matter if you play a land that casts the kill spell or Waste their dual, you're still getting Hymned. That annoyance is less common than the more oppressive Probe -> Sea -> Therapy, btw Pyromancer coming down soon.

[Barook]

Eh, keep in mind that DRS is used in diverse ways.

Yeah, that's the reason why like ~90% of the deck that run DRS are BUG decks. Much diverse. Such wow. Aside from Elves, which has at least some meta representation, what other nonblue decks use it? Basically just fringe decks like Nic Fit and Maverick.

[Megadeus]

All DRS has really done is take mana dork strategy from green and make UBx the best mana dork colors. Basically simultaneously weakened green and strengthened blue.

[Fox]

Yeah, that's the reason why like ~90% of the deck that run DRS are BUG decks. Much diverse. Such wow. Aside from Elves, which has at least some meta representation, what other nonblue decks use it? Basically just fringe decks like Nic Fit and Maverick.

Yes, and how many decks that use black or green without blue don't start with DRS? There's also a pretty key 2nd level look at SCM/StP and how that plan is indirectly advanced by DRS penetration. You can definitely have lots of DRS, they can disproportionately help blue, but we're still enabling other strategies & color combos. The card doesn't force you to stop playing whatever strategy you want to just to throw out creative space, diluting a deck for the sole purpose of aiming cards at enemy DRS specifically (this kind of cancer is specific to cards like Counterbalance).

DRS is a really good card, it's highly played...but all that really happened in legacy since Top got banned is Shardless types went to Czech and Git. Probe became the best Delver deck - why the sudden outrage? Now sure, people stopped using DRS to cast Decay right after because, without Counterbalance, you can actually play something proactive (SCM, K-Comm, Leovold, etc...). Note how that proactive thing they're doing probably pitches to FoW, which leads back to the cantrip cartel, which is actually just the natural state of legacy being heavily blue and low to the ground (not taking a side on the cantrip cartel stuff, it's just what wins games and is thus heavily represented).

The amount of people in legacy who find getting LD'd out of games to be acceptable/healthy is far fewer than those who really hate when they "can't play magic." So you ban DRS, and what they just start playing Birds or Noble...and getting blown out by yard strats, Strip Mined out of games, and losing to decks like Infect even more??? It's not really about naming off decks that use it differently @Barook, I just know that most of the people who want DRS banned are going to be the same ones whining about the fallout as they're forced to play a lot more land-based interaction. I don't think banning DRS ends up increasing the playerbase because it [a DRS ban] doesn't let them play the kind of magic they want to (they're wrong, LD is the greatest thing ever, and losing to combo is perfectly fine....but they outnumber those of us with that mindset by a lot).

From a personal standpoint, I'm definitely on board for a new golden age of LD, fair auto-loss to combo (particularly in g1), and death to the mindless 'good stuff' grindfests (especially the 4c ones)...but I just don't think DRS checks enough of the boxes to get itself banned. It's miserable, but probably beneficial overall (I would put Chalice in the same camp).

[Dice_Box]

My little opinion, unban everything except moxes, black lotus, timetwister, ancestral recall and time walk, wait 6 months and then let's see how it goes...today i can see only "fair" decks using deathrite shaman do more broken things than unfair decks...
Some cards in the legacy banlist are innoque nowdays... something has to change...drs is "killing" the format imo...

While I understand the idea, you would have to run a more restricted list. Things like Bazaar, Shop, Academy and Tutors would all have to stay on the list or the format would be disgusting to play in. Because I can tell you how it will go if you give me 4 Academy, 4 Shop and Bazaar. Add on the remaining artifact mana, Sol Ring, Crypt, vault as 4 ofs and I can tell you, I would be a happy to build Terra Nova.

The sentiment though, I agree with it. Strip 4 cards off the list and see what happens. Do it again until something breaks, ban what is broken and stop.

[maharis]

Sadly, banning Deathrite will likely do nothing to stop the Grixis stew from being the best thing going. There's just too much efficiency and value in that card pool.