All B/R update speculation.

[Megadeus]

Sadly, banning Deathrite will likely do nothing to stop the Grixis stew from being the best thing going. There's just too much efficiency and value in that card pool.

I think that the Grixis (lets be real it's all the blue cards fault) stew is very good, but I think without deathrite you get to slow that down a turn from having it's busted draw of like T1 DRS, T2 Pyromancer, Probe, Therapy every important card from your hand. Although yes the deck is still dumb because it gets free information, 1 mana 5/5's, and a million cantrips.

[rlesko]

Did someone really just say DRS is used in diverse ways? LOL

[Megadeus]

Did someone really just say DRS is used in diverse ways? LOL

Yeah man. It's used in Spanish Inquisition as a summoner's pact target that can be pinned under chrome mox to produce black mana.

[Problem4tic]

While I understand the idea, you would have to run a more restricted list. Things like Bazaar, Shop, Academy and Tutors would all have to stay on the list or the format would be disgusting to play in. Because I can tell you how it will go if you give me 4 Academy, 4 Shop and Bazaar. Add on the remaining artifact mana, Sol Ring, Crypt, vault as 4 ofs and I can tell you, I would be a happy to build Terra Nova.

The sentiment though, I agree with it. Strip 4 cards off the list and see what happens. Do it again until something breaks, ban what is broken and stop.

I agree with you, some cards are just so powerfull and unique that will get banned after a week of unban...but Wizard went in the wrong way for too long, and that's my point: as soon as the meta shifted from maverick/goblin dominant to combo quasi dominant they get immediately the banhammer on mistycal tutor....at the time was a good move in my opinion couse the deck was way too fast and consistent for the meta.
Then the genius at the Wizard started to print all the possible hate for combo decks especially grave hate(and we all know that most of the combos use the graveyard in part or tatally):surgical ex, Deathrite shaman, Ooze and so on...
That way they thought to shif the meat in a Fair way...but cards that interact with the grave were plenty and good at the time, then they printed Flusterstorm (just to say:NO COMBO, U SHALL NOT WIN! Gandalf like....) then the madness: thay want to print BETTER CREATURES.... okay it's fine, and the first that comes to my mind is Mr.Tarmo.... a nice card.... lowercosted beater but okay is green who cares?... and then they went out of the rail...they printed Delver Of Secrets...a card that should have been RED or GREEN like Mr.Tarmo insted it's blue....Tempo decks party!! yuppe!! but that was not enough! more FAIR GAME...let's give Black a mana dork that interacts with the opponents graveyard and costs one mere Green OR BLACK mana...easy to splash in a blue build of tempo ( grixis and bug delver) and allow to splash a 4th color without issues...that's not good for Magic...everyone who played at least one draft knows that going up to a 3rd colour make some trouble with the manabase...but it's all FAIR magic no?? :D
I can countinue the listing with the thorn of amethyst with the legs....(u wanna play prison decks??...go artifact then! creatures are creatures no lock pieces IMO) then let's say... True Name Nemesis that say counter me or die in 7 turns...nice Pokemon broh... and then the bigger mistake IMO Leovold... lockpiece undercosted for its abilities and in colours with deathrite shaman...what to say...? NICE JOB WIZARD! YOU MAKE A BETTER GAME! :D

p.s if we can't beat Deathrite Shaman, we shall ally with him :D (until he gets banned,i hope)

[Problem4tic]

Sadly, banning Deathrite will likely do nothing to stop the Grixis stew from being the best thing going. There's just too much efficiency and value in that card pool.

I think that the Grixis (lets be real it's all the blue cards fault) stew is very good, but I think without deathrite you get to slow that down a turn from having it's busted draw of like T1 DRS, T2 Pyromancer, Probe, Therapy every important card from your hand. Although yes the deck is still dumb because it gets free information, 1 mana 5/5's, and a million cantrips.

Megadeus ir right, the deck will be still good but not as good as it is now...

Yeah man. It's used in Spanish Inquisition as a summoner's pact target that can be pinned under chrome mox to produce black mana.

Lol yes :D but i prefer it to get away from the format, sorry spanish inquisition... :P

[Megadeus]

Lol yes :D but i prefer it to get away from the format, sorry spanish inquisition... :P

SLitherhead will rise again. Just like The South

[maharis]

I think that the Grixis (lets be real it's all the blue cards fault) stew is very good, but I think without deathrite you get to slow that down a turn from having it's busted draw of like T1 DRS, T2 Pyromancer, Probe, Therapy every important card from your hand. Although yes the deck is still dumb because it gets free information, 1 mana 5/5's, and a million cantrips.

The unfortunate thing is that we know that Wizards doesn't have the stomach to go after the cantrips or the cantrip-synergistic cards with any conviction. Barring some sort of major breakthrough, I think this is the format from now on, Deathrite or not.

I'm resigned with the fact that DRS will be the next card banned. I used to say it was unfair to take a non-blue card to solve a blue problem AGAIN (after Top got the axe). Now I just don't think there's anything better to do from a fair-deck perspective, DRS or not, besides jamming all the best UB cards with a splash of your choice.

[Fox]

Did someone really just say DRS is used in diverse ways? LOL

Hate to break it to you man, but not everyone untaps with DRS to play a 3 mana card. It's making the cut in a lot of other decks primarily because it's a better Cursed Scroll providing untargeted life loss and allowing different cards to be played because there's this card that can marginalize hyper-efficient creatures like reanimator targets and Goyf (all while hedging against lower to the ground mana denial strategies). No one forces people to play DRS like generic good stuff deck using it to cast LotV, Leo, Shardless, etc on turn two (but yes, that will be one of the common uses).

I get that people are annoyed by turn 2 three-drop, multicolored thing out of 4c deck; but DRS does more than that for the rest of the format. The ability of good stuff deck to do this consistently due to DRS can certainly feel miserable, but it's not a reason to ban. This card lets people play magic; so until people accept that getting Wasteland'd out of games, completely unable to cast cards from hand, is normal and healthy, the the ban isn't gonna happen. Again, it doesn't stop there, without DRS you lose to Infect and yard-combo so much more - and while those are perfectly legitimate losses people should just accept, they won't - it's all whining. When you advocate a ban which creates far more discontent among the playerbase than existed before, you better have solid power level arguments. DRS is a really good creature, and people aren't blackmailed into running 4x Decay anymore - why are we suddenly interested in banning it because good stuff deck using it to cast a proactive card?

You're basically saying ban fetchlands, which is fine (unrealistic, but fine) as it would stop all the BS/DRS collusion. The root problem is one that is highly unlikely to change; I don't see how going after all the problems* that will inevitably rise up b/c we have fetchlands is a healthy course of action.
*whose power level issues all stem from fetchlands

[jimmythegreek]

Yeah man. It's used in Spanish Inquisition as a summoner's pact target that can be pinned under chrome mox to produce black mana.

I refuse to imprint DRS....Odious Trow is way better.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I guess we’re at the point where I can copy and paste old arguments for keeping top because painter and replacing top with DRS and painter with Maverick.

[Dice_Box]

RIP Painter. It hurt me to list my Reciters.

[CptHaddock]

RIP Painter. It hurt me to list my Reciters.

Miracles players are complaining about their worthless blue staples and i'm just sitting here shuffling my playset of recruiters.

[Ronald Deuce]

Much as I'm glad Miracles took a hit—seriously, people were choosing to play objectively sub-optimal win conditions like Venezuelan Legends, and they'd still knock over tournaments with them—I'm really sad to see Painter implode like this. That was one of the decks that piqued my interest in Legacy, though I'd never have had the money for Recruiters.

[Sidneyious]

Mtg has and always been a good stuff game.
If you're annoyed with good stuff go play where there is bad stuff that's good.

I hate every top deck I decide to get into when I'm almost done it gets a ban and is useless.

So I lose money because wotc hates popularity, combo and solid control.

[rlesko]

Hate to break it to you man, but not everyone untaps with DRS to play a 3 mana card. It's making the cut in a lot of other decks primarily because it's a better Cursed Scroll providing untargeted life loss and allowing different cards to be played because there's this card that can marginalize hyper-efficient creatures like reanimator targets and Goyf (all while hedging against lower to the ground mana denial strategies). No one forces people to play DRS like generic good stuff deck using it to cast LotV, Leo, Shardless, etc on turn two (but yes, that will be one of the common uses).

I get that people are annoyed by turn 2 three-drop, multicolored thing out of 4c deck; but DRS does more than that for the rest of the format. The ability of good stuff deck to do this consistently due to DRS can certainly feel miserable, but it's not a reason to ban. This card lets people play magic; so until people accept that getting Wasteland'd out of games, completely unable to cast cards from hand, is normal and healthy, the the ban isn't gonna happen. Again, it doesn't stop there, without DRS you lose to Infect and yard-combo so much more - and while those are perfectly legitimate losses people should just accept, they won't - it's all whining. When you advocate a ban which creates far more discontent among the playerbase than existed before, you better have solid power level arguments. DRS is a really good creature, and people aren't blackmailed into running 4x Decay anymore - why are we suddenly interested in banning it because good stuff deck using it to cast a proactive card?

You're basically saying ban fetchlands, which is fine (unrealistic, but fine) as it would stop all the BS/DRS collusion. The root problem is one that is highly unlikely to change; I don't see how going after all the problems* that will inevitably rise up b/c we have fetchlands is a healthy course of action.
*whose power level issues all stem from fetchlands

You went off in the weeds here quite a bit. I'm not saying ban fetchlands at all. Don't project your logical fallacies on me.

DRS is not used in diverse ways. He is extremely bannable.

You mentioned he is used in a lot of the decks because hes a "better cursed scroll". Name ONE of these decks. Whatever deck that is would have to not play fetchlands. It doesn't exist.

No one forces people to play DRS like generic good stuff deck using it to cast LotV, Leo, Shardless, etc on turn two

You forgot to mention pyro + therapy, hymn + wasteland, kolaghan's command, strix + ponder, etc.

No one forces anyone to play anything. But players get tired of bringing a knife to a gun fight. Which is what DRS is turning games into.

[morgan_coke]

The unfortunate thing is that we know that Wizards doesn't have the stomach to go after the cantrips or the cantrip-synergistic cards with any conviction. Barring some sort of major breakthrough, I think this is the format from now on, Deathrite or not.

I'm resigned with the fact that DRS will be the next card banned. I used to say it was unfair to take a non-blue card to solve a blue problem AGAIN (after Top got the axe). Now I just don't think there's anything better to do from a fair-deck perspective, DRS or not, besides jamming all the best UB cards with a splash of your choice.

Agreed. This will be the case until Brainstorm goes away. It's sad, I used to like playing the non-blue decks that could still compete, *cough* SLIDE, B!@TCHES! *cough* but, it's just not there anymore.

[Zombie]

Agreed. This will be the case until Brainstorm goes away. It's sad, I used to like playing the non-blue decks that could still compete, *cough* SLIDE, B!@TCHES! *cough* but, it's just not there anymore.

Dunno if it's enough. Brainstorm is the greatest offender by far, obviously - articles have been written about it being the best thing to do in Legacy for years - but the core issue is not so much Brainstorm as Xerox deckbuilding being a thing in the first place. You can see the influence in Cantrip Cartel decks, obviously, but also in the multilayered GBWu-based creature combo decks that exist in Highlander formats (Pattern-Rector in German, Boonweaver/Hulkweaver in EDH) and even the Boros Tokens/Monarch archetype in Pauper - that thing has not a hint of blue in sight but packs 8 proper cantrips and 15 Baleful Strixes maindeck. The EDH Hulk decks and Boros Monarch are pleasant exceptions in that nonblue xeroxy stuff tends to suck in Legacy and most formats in general, but they're absolutely instances of the same thing - just highly competitive nonblue ones.

[Fox]

You went off in the weeds here quite a bit. I'm not saying ban fetchlands at all. Don't project your logical fallacies on me.
DRS is not used in diverse ways. He is extremely bannable.
You mentioned he is used in a lot of the decks because hes a "better cursed scroll". Name ONE of these decks. Whatever deck that is would have to not play fetchlands. It doesn't exist.

You forgot to mention pyro + therapy, hymn + wasteland, kolaghan's command, strix + ponder, etc.

No one forces anyone to play anything. But players get tired of bringing a knife to a gun fight. Which is what DRS is turning games into.

The reason DRS & Brainstorm are played (particularly together) is fetchlands. If fetchlands were banned, the representation of these cards would plummet. This is why it's hard to buy into the idea that DRS itself has any power level problems because it all arises from the existence of a secondary party. That kind of banning philosophy requires constant management of symptoms, while never attempting to treat the disease. It is highly doubtful that fetchlands are ever getting banned b/c it would become a total amount of and cost of dual lands problem - this comes back to needing wotc to start reprinting the reserved list for long term format solvency. The take home message here though, is that DRS by itself is only barely playable without fetchlands - so why are we going after cards like these citing power level issues?

Plenty of decks in legacy get wins by paying black and tapping DRS. It is not any decks build-around go-to strategy, but it is quite common and against certain strategies it might be the only card in your 75 that can kill an opponent (specifically because it doesn't target, and it's life loss). Saying a deck that is interested in activating DRS with black "would have to not play fetchlands" doesn't make sense; DRS is a Grim Lavamancer that goes straight after life totals - it can do more than that [providing interaction where there was none or extra mana], but this is the main reason DRS is played over Birds/Noble: it goes upstairs.

Yes, when we talk about Czech Pile it is assumed people know they have those cards you've listed off. The cmcs are higher, and the color reqs are all over the place - so yes, we know that 'good stuff' decks are primarily using DRS to make both the colors & amount of mana work. It's annoying, it's offensive, and it's miserable to play against - but that doesn't mean ban DRS. It is okay to have cards and decks that are miserable to play against, as long as they aren't overpowered. I do understand the sinking feeling of "I'll have to play value stuff like them to compete," but this isn't a new phenomenon, we have had Shardless for years and Czech Pile is the same thing by a different name.

[Megadeus]

The reason DRS & Brainstorm are played (particularly together) is fetchlands. If fetchlands were banned, the representation of these cards would plummet. This is why it's hard to buy into the idea that DRS itself has any power level problems because it all arises from the existence of a secondary party. That kind of banning philosophy requires constant management of symptoms, while never attempting to treat the disease. It is highly doubtful that fetchlands are ever getting banned b/c it would become a total amount of and cost of dual lands problem - this comes back to needing wotc to start reprinting the reserved list for long term format solvency. The take home message here though, is that DRS by itself is only barely playable without fetchlands - so why are we going after cards like these citing power level issues?

Plenty of decks in legacy get wins by paying black and tapping DRS. It is not any decks build-around go-to strategy, but it is quite common and against certain strategies it might be the only card in your 75 that can kill an opponent (specifically because it doesn't target, and it's life loss). Saying a deck that is interested in activating DRS with black "would have to not play fetchlands" doesn't make sense; DRS is a Grim Lavamancer that goes straight after life totals - it can do more than that [providing interaction where there was none or extra mana], but this is the main reason DRS is played over Birds/Noble: it goes upstairs.

Yes, when we talk about Czech Pile it is assumed people know they have those cards you've listed off. The cmcs are higher, and the color reqs are all over the place - so yes, we know that 'good stuff' decks are primarily using DRS to make both the colors & amount of mana work. It's annoying, it's offensive, and it's miserable to play against - but that doesn't mean ban DRS. It is okay to have cards and decks that are miserable to play against, as long as they aren't overpowered. I do understand the sinking feeling of "I'll have to play value stuff like them to compete," but this isn't a new phenomenon, we have had Shardless for years and Czech Pile is the same thing by a different name.

I think the issue with DRS and BS decks (as in in the same deck is that the play patterns are all the same. Sure sometimes you play red instead of say white to get bolt instead of path, or you play BUG for Leovold rather than Grixis for Pyromancer, but the games don't really play out that much differently. You can say yeah the third color is different and therefore the deck is different, but the reality is that most games go the same way. T1 DRS, T2 cast a cantrip, play a threat or answer a threat. Next turn play a thing, cast a cantrip, counter your opponents spell. DRS allowing the non green blue decks to get to do multiple things on turn 2 while advancing the board is what makes the card so insane imo, and it really changed how powerful being on the play is. Turn 1 Sea DRS, daze your removal, untap waste you and play another threat and the game is essentially over at that point. IDK. Maybe it's just me, but I'm pretty tired of Deathrite and I'm someone who has been playing the card since it got printed.

I also hate that with DRS, Delver, and Show and Tell for actual game ending threats has really taken away from the format and made it so synergy based decks are not good. You are forced to be playing good stuff decks essentially because with how efficient the threats have become you can't afford to durdle around doing nothing.

[Nielsie]

Brainstorm is at 60% but DRS is the problem and should be banned? *facepalm*

If something should be banned it should have the color blue. Lots of targets over there with Brainstorm and Ponder leading the way but for my part you could also try to get rid of some of the blue creatures that blue should never have gotten: Snapcaster, TNN, delver or the new hotness Leovold. If snapcaster had been red it would have been banned years ago...

People against the Brainstorm ban are advocating that other colors should get new fancy tools. But every time something non-blue actually gets used a lot, it should be banned??

Anyway, DRS is a fricking creature without any protection. It dies to almost everything... get over it and play some removal...