Sounds like a whole lot of durdling and not accomplishing much.Originally Posted by square_two
@Bromophelia: Fun is what we do. Welcome to the board!
Ya, I would rather bounce permanents that do things. I really love the idea of a late game engine pairing Eternal Witness with Paradoxical Outcome.
Ok, so this BUG NO list has won 2 online leagues and placed third in another one in the last 10 days, and that's a pretty nice streak considering how unusual Nic Fit appearances are in mtgtop8. The things that caught my eye are the inclusion of the Natural Order package (obviously), the 2 Wasteland and the 4 Gitaxian Probe. What are your thoughts?
20 LANDS
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
15 CREATURES
3 Baleful Strix
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
3 Veteran Explorer
21 INSTANTS and SORC.
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
4 OTHER SPELLS
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Pernicious Deed
SIDEBOARD
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge
I'm not a fan. Not enough blue for the FOW's in the side, just an overall weaker version of using NO than what Elves is trying to do.
It seems to be catching people by surprise by using NO rather than actually winning due to it's power.
Then there's the issue of how Wizards cherrypicks results that they post.
So, you're concern here is that you don't get to be pro-active in the approach. Instead of trying to shred our opponents hand, get value, and then make big plays, this deck is trying to react to every play and try to eek out enough card advantage to finally make some big play after all resources have otherwise been exhausted by our opponent.
As far as this is concerned, that did feel like a bit of an issue when piloting the deck last night, however, I'm not sure if this was a result of reactivity being too slow or if I'm just trained to be proactive with my nic fit decks.
One incredibly nice thing that I found with this deck was the instant speed sac outlets allow me to turn 1 red mana up into double blue for a counter spell (an example that happened more than once last night). Black was definitely missing, but I'm not done with Temur yet, I'm willing to give it 1 more week.
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My run at my LGS went as well Echelon would have expected last night (0-2 drop). But I think that data set is a bit skewed and has actually motivated me to continue with the deck.
Round 1 vs White Eldrazi:
G1 otp:
I open with 6 lands and an eternal witness, mulligan to 6 and keep 3 lands, vet explorer, e. wit, and perilous research. Scry the land to the bottom.
I drop explorer, but my opponents first 4 plays are the relevant ones. They went, T1 chalice@1, T2 TKS, T3 chalice@2, T4 TKS. Even if I had cabal therapy T1 and named chalice they had a T1 TKS thanks to lotus petals. Deed might help but I need to draw it in between TKS and even then the position doesn't feel great.
SB in: 3 Blood moon, 2 Ceremonious Rejection. Out: 4 Collateral Damage, 1 Thragtusk
G2 otp:
I keep 7 which include 3 lands, vet explorer, force, p. research, and e wit.
I T1 vet again, and force pitching research their chalice@1. I draw blood moon and just need to dodge TKS 1 turn. They turn 2 TKS. I spin my wheels for a little bit but the following eldrazi turns were another TKS and reality smasher (happens).
I'm not sure what I could do in this match up as it were, they had wonderful stompy hands and I could not get off the board quick enough.
Round 2 Burning Wish RGCL:
G1 otd: I keep a hand of 5 lands (1 grove), vet explorer and punishing fire. Not great, but this is going to be grindy.
They manage a t1 loam and have thespian's stage in play.
I build a presence as they are unable to find a dark depths for a signifcant amount of time, price them down to single digits, and finally lose to a 20/20.
SB in: 3 Blood moon, 2 BEB, 2 invasive surgery, 2 surgical extraction. Out: 4 Collateral Damage, 1 counterspell, 2 Thragtusk, 1 cyclonic rift, 1 punishing fire.
G2 otp: I don't remember my opening hand, the game was really sweet and involves a lot of back and forth including, blood moons, k- grips, burning wish for [card]devastating dreams[/cards] to completely wipe my board. With an eventual me building back to price of progress, e wit, price of progress them out of the game.
G3 otd:
Still cannot remember how this went, but we end up in top deck mode with about 2 minutes on the clock, I get them to 8 life and just need to find a draw spell, a price of progress, a capsize, anything other than lands. I draw lands, they draw better lands and make a 20/20 as we're about to go to turns.
I get a bye round 3 and decide to go home instead of waiting around.
All in all, the deck out performed my expectations. The game against Eldrazi I am willing to chalk up to variance, they had a wonderful start, and I did not. Lands was actually winnable in all 3 games and came down to the wire. I'm going to test some more but I don't think Temur is necessarily an auto-reject. The instant speed sac outlet was so good, definitely something I am going to look to implement going forward.
The land denial might be there for a reason, but I'm not a particular fan of the wastelands. NO into progenitus is nice, but this deck seems to be a bit dedicated to the matter with 3 NO, if I were going to try this I would probably drop it down to 2 and cut Titania all together. She does well enough, but there are so many cards I want in that position. Even a second DRS to just help ramp faster (and DRS is generally a good card).
All in all I do like it, I know NO is brought up once in a while, and I think has a place in some metas where you just want to close out a game on the spot. For me the big question with nic fit has always been, what colors am I playing, what do they provide for me in the current meta, what are they weak to?
So, in bug, which is really good in the grindy match ups like czech pile, and decent against combo, the biggest whiff is against stompy decks (from what I've found). And NO doesn't clear us out against TKS. But I guess I can't really argue with results that keep popping up.
Last edited by Kobra_D; 09-29-2017 at 01:25 AM.
The problem with playing reactively is that you wait for your opponent to do something in the hopes you can react to that (especially with cards like Counterspell) while either staying on par with your opponent or falling behind (b/c you don't make your plays when you could b/c you're busy waiting for the bus to arive). I really do wish you the best of luck, I just don't see it happening.
And that last line made me lol.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Hi guys,
I have been thinking of picking up the pieces for Nic Fit - specifically versions with the card Meren of Clan Nel Toth. Does anyone have a solid abzan list with that card?
Thanks
IMO think Meren fits best in bug fit since you can recur Strixes all day.
I'm a fan of 3-4 Vet, 4 DRS, 4 Strix, 3-4 Tracker builds with a few Jaces but there is a huge variety in just about any list these days. Junk has like...Pridemage, Sakura-Tribe Elder...that it can specifically focus on with Meren.
Personally I'm planning on sacrificing Academy Rector to a pirate trigger and introducing that deck to Overwhelming Splendor.
With Abzan you have three real options right now depending on what threats you use to finish the game:
- Siege Rhinos. Great against aggro, mediocre against control, pretty awful against combo.
- Planeswalkers. Mediocre against aggro, great against control, varies against combo (Kaya and 3-mana Gideon are great, most of the rest really aren't)
- Stoneforge. Solid against aggro, solid against control, mediocre against combo (SOFAF helps), but get horribly wrecked by Kolaghan's Command.
The rest of the deck is something like this:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Collective Brutality
2 Pernicious Deed (or Toxic Deluge)
2 Sylvan Library
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
SFM addons:
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dryad Arbor
Rhinos addons:
4 Siege Rhino
2 Thoughtseize
Walkers addons:
1 Gideon AoZ
1 Gideon Trials
1 Elspeth SC
1 Nissa VF
2 Toxic Deluge
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Lost Legacy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 To The Slaughter
2 Toxic Deluge or Golgari Charm
1 Elspeth SC (or some other big walker if you already have one)
1 Gaddock Teeg
I defer to the others opinion on the matter, but I would have probably suggested an Abzan Pod variant to be best used with Meren. I know most people have moved to playing BUG when it comes to POD (and in general), but I like some of the white sideboard options. Gaddock Teeg being huge here since combo variants are the decks worst match up and a sideboard Sigarda means fair decks need to have a strictly better clock than you.
My old Abzan Pod List:
//Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteren Explorer
1 qasali pridemage
1 scaveging ooze
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Eternal Witness
1 tireless tracker
2 siege rhino
1 Meren of clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi Undead Vizear
1 Grave Titan
//Instant & Sorcery
4 Cabal therapy
1 abrupt decay
4 green sun's zenith
2 path to exile
2 Diabolic Edict
//Artifatcs & Enchantment
2 Pernicious deed
2 Sylvan Library
2 Birthing Pod
// Lands
2 swamp
3 Forest
2 plains
4 windswept heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 savannah
2 bayou
1 scrublands
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volraths Stronghold
So how would you change the lands? -2 Wasteland and +1 Phyrexian Tower and some other land? What would you put in instead of Titania?
Natural Order looks fun and I think I'm gonna give it a go with 2 of them, so I'd appreciate any input. Someone else mentioned that the list's SB didn't make sense with the FoWs. What might be better SB options in general?
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Personally I've found that too many utility lands in BUG can be wonky - you already have to prioritize duals early in order to navigate with wanting Strix early. Single Phyrexian Tower can be fine. I was about to suggest Phyrexian Tower + Volrath's Stronghold but the list already has Meren to fill Stronghold's role.
The 4 FoW in the side of that list could just as easily be 3 Thoughtseize, 1 Faerie Macabre (personally I like at least 3 fast graveyard hate effects, and Faerie works well with Meren). Mixing your own discard, which is proactive, with reactive hate like Flusterstorm is a nice way to go.
Another idea is Ruric Thar in the side. From my experience with Nyx Fit, sometimes all it takes is a couple turns of disruption followed by oops-4-drop-I-win. Rector for Dovescape in Nyx's case.
Right now there are 20 lands (really 19, Dryad arbor is more easily thought of as a spell [I know it's not actually a spell by definition]).
From those 19 lands, 2 wastelands aren't helping us cast spells but are denying our opponents. If the pilot of that deck expects a lot of lands match ups or czech pile and just needs to falter them early, sure it makes sense.
But I would probably cut titania, a NO, and the 2 wastelands, and go +1 tower, +1 Bayou, +1 swamp, and +1 more dual (probably sea, if you don't have more duals then a 7th basic).
I always like having at least 6 basics which makes a convenient 3 vet triggers in the super grindy match ups. 5 seems a bit low but isn't necessarily wrong. This puts the land count to 21 (22 counting Dryad), which is better for a card like tracker, and also provides more options to cast all of our spells (getting choked on mana from aggressive wastelands/ports feels super bad with nic fit).
That would probably be closer to what I would sleeve up if I ran a NO BUG list.
With Nic Fit wanting as much of the resources available all the time, I would also agree to swap out force's which are costly for thoughtseize's. The difference between an early 2-1 and 1-1 could be the difference in winning and losing against fast combo.
B. Pod is cool in concept, but mostly just durdles and fails to apply pressure when needed.
The problem with Birthing Pod is threefold. The first issue is that there's little overlap between good GSZ targets and good Birthing Pod targets. The second issue is that while Pod is a strong engine, it takes a long time to get going and therefore you'll struggle against both combo and aggro... the combo matchup being more important here. The third issue is that it's a very slow deck. Not only does it take a lot of turns to actually win the game with some long grinding, but each turn usually involves multiple tutors and then shuffling, and that eats up the clock.
As a casual deck it's fun, but in anything with match timers, pod isn't going to perform well.
Funny, because 2 of the 3 best results a Nic Fit deck has ever reached are made by Pod versions...
Anyway, i've played a big italian tournament (ovinogeddon) with D&T because i haven't been able to get all the cards for Nyx Fit. but from the next tournament i'll totally take it again with me.
Still wondering about the right mix of manipulation, right now i've 3 Mirri and 2 Scroll rack but Mirri's performances are very volatile
I'm testing 1 Mirri 2 Library right now. Back down to 3 Lingering Souls and I've removed the Cavern for another dual. Also have entirely removed a GSZ-able fatty from the 75, adding in Chokes to the sideboard instead. And Teeg instead of Canonist.
Posted this in discord, but had a couple turns against aggro loam that went: cast rector, sac to tower, grab leyline of the void (to shut off pfire), use leftover mana to hardcast cruel reality. Next turn: play e witness, get back overwhelming splendor, sac to tower to hardcast splendor.
Which tournaments? If you're referring to leagues, it's relatively easy to get a good league result just by lucking out on the matchups. If you hit a bunch of Delver or other midrange decks, Pod can do well. It also does better online than in paper because paper adds about 1 minute per turn to each turn due to shuffles.
Anyways, like I said... Pod lacks interaction, and it lacks speed. It's powerful because every card generates a 2 for 1, but it's not where you want to be in Legacy.
Another good question would be when were those results, and (indeed) in what meta.
.... no, the three best results of Nic Fits are made by:
-Brug Pod: best results ever, 6 of 426
-ScapeFit: 1 of 187
-Junk Pod: 5 of 173
Stretching the matter to every 100+ players with a Nic Fit in top 8, Pod is still the most winning version.
@Echelon: 1-2 years ago, depending on which one. I'll never play Pod in this meta because of Command, of course, but not for the problem said by Brael.
@Square_two: Scroll Rack is being the best one since now, it's the closest thing to Brainstorm we can have, and Brainstorm is what we miss to be a Tier (imho, obv).
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