Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
Your argument is that non-blue cards can be splashed into blue shells, therefore making blue decks stronger than non-blue decks, which doesn't make any sense. It's not these non-blue cards that are the catalyst. SFM doesn't make blue better than non-blue. If U/x Stoneblade has an edge over D&T, it's not because SFM is more powerful in U/x than mono white, it's because U/x itself is more powerful than mono white. It's independent of SFM.
I can agree with you about Pyromancer and Mentor, those cards are much better in blue shells because blue is better at facilitating their on-cast triggers. I can agree with you about the Delve threats, too. I didn't mention either of those in my previous response.
Fatal Push isn't better in blue than non-blue decks because it's a new powerful card that they now have access to. Fatal Push helped boost any deck that was in black. If the blue decks got a boost, so did non-blue decks. This card has nothing to do with why blue is or isn't stronger than non-blue decks.
I do agree with you that "one piece doesn't cut it", though.
The problem that you are trying to get at is that most cards non-blue decks can use, can also be used by blue decks, and since blue decks are more consistent because of cantrips and more versatile because of Force of Will, they tend to be better than non-blue decks. Here's the thing though: the only solution to this is to go nuclear on the format (like you said), but going nuclear on the format is going to be far more damaging than leaving things the way they are (which it also seems like you agree with).
Honestly, the only thing I disagreed with you about was your point about Fatal Push, Tarmogoyf, and SFM making blue decks better than non-blue decks. I agree with the rest.
One thing that's important to note and that was touched on in the recent Mana Drain article on Xerox decks: Cantrips may be broken and absurdly cheap, but Xerox decks have a much higher preference and need for hyperefficient cards because as strong as the cantrips are, casting them still slows the Xerox deck down. That mana taken up by casting them has to be compensated in card choices to an extent. Push is a bigger buff to Xerox decks than it is to, their GBW-colored cousins, for example.
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Ban mtgo
Hyper-efficiency is valuable to any deck. There's a reason why Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, and similar cards see much less play than cards like Swords to Plowshares, even in the GBW decks.
The fact that some of the Xerox decks are gravitating towards Kologhan's Command is also the opposite of efficency.
I get what you're saying. Cantrips do cost mana, and the cost is not insignificant; mana efficient threats and answers pair well in the Xerox decks. But at the same time, the deck that just won the SCG Open was running the Xerox package and a bunch of inefficient threats in 4 TNN, 2 Leo, 1 JTMS, etc.
So my point is that hyper-efficiency isn't really better in blue than in non-blue, as it is important for both, and that Xerox can also use inefficient threats/answers too.
EDIT: Going back to my earlier point about why DRS is so heavily played... the reason why hyper-efficiency is so important these days is because of mana denial. Wasteland, Port, Ghost Quarter, Tabernacle, Daze, Pierce, Thalia, Spheres, Choke, Back to Basics, etc. Mana denial is as much a problem for Xerox as it is for non-blue decks.
EDIT2: Well, mana denial is only part of it. The fact that the format is full of powerful efficient threats requires that decks play efficient answers. You cannot expect to win when your opponent's threats cost 1 mana and your removal spells cost 3 mana. It's legit to play more expensive more powerful threats (like TNN), but if you're going to play answers, they either need to be efficient, or they need to be better than a 1-for-1.
printing some new combo cards could help quite a bit. it seems the last major cards to be contributed to combo have been past in flames, craterhoof behemoth, griselbrand, and thespian's stage. (since 2011) the main issue here is that there's been plenty of other cards to benefit non-combo. many times a combo deck can ignore cards like deathrite shaman, delver of secrets, tarmogoyf etc. imagine elves being played now without craterhoof, or sneak and show without griselbrand, or hexdepths/lands without stage. ANT without past in flames. a single unique card can allow for a tier 2 unique combo deck to turn into something strong enough to compete with the tier 1 good stuff decks.
we will see more metagame diversity with the printing of some more unique combo cards that don't necessarily need to fit inside a shell of cantrips, or looking to midrange + 2 card combo kill.
you can also probably include faithless looting for LED dredge as a big upgrade for that combo deck as well. (also innistrad)
-rob
This is an interesting article. Not so much for the B&R recommended changes, but more for the discussions about how the list is managed - something we should pay more attention to if we are going to have worth while discourse in this thread.
https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...ight-approach/
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I would have enjoyed the article a lot more if it didn't go down the B&R lane and remained talking about list Management.
Reading the Dark Ritual -> Mindtwist argument is as misplaced as it was 10 years ago. It's like pointing to Spirit of the Night to claim that Oath would be safe. Why isn't even a single big-mana-deck among the likes of Elves, NicFit, 12-Post, etc even mentioned?
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It was a very poor argument. I personally think Elves won't get that much better and the other 2 decks I'm prefer to see get a boost. But definitely worth mentioning these decks. Also Tezz.
We agree! <3
Although I think the "B&R lane" was there mostly as examples of applying the list management principles I think. They were all pretty brief.
Supremacy 2020 is the modern era game of nuclear brinksmanship! My blog:
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com
You can play Lands.dec in EDH too! My primer:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...lara-lands-dec
That article is just more propaganda from Bob Huang on his crusade against DRS...
I don't like CFB's involvment in B&R list regulation. And wizards are just sucking their **** especailly now when they are officially exclusive GP organizer. Disgusting on many levels.
I'm not sure it's fair to attach the site views directly to the writers views. I understand the site published the article, but that doesn't mean they endorse the content within. As long as it meets the criteria set up in their publishing standards it's ok.
This is Bob's view not CFB as a brand.
I mean, it's fine to avoid a quality analysis of slots like Mindtwist vs Nissa vs Natural Order in Elves for example, but avoiding even a single sentence on all the Legacy decks with large, permanent mana access and trying to make a point based on one-shot mana accelerants is awkward. Bob knows better, so that I agree with the other members speculation here, that this and other passages of the article are just there to cloak the real intent.
It's dangerous if someone with a grip on the secondary market is somewhat able to influence B&R decisions. For my taste its filthy enough that WotC cooperates directly with the secondary market
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Is there a point where a player could be banned from a format?
Bob's been maliciously making t8s on his crusade against Deathrite Shaman, he already did it with Treasure Cruise, and people enjoyed playing with that card. Not to mention spearheading the subvert campaign for CFB to spike Pirate cards as a user above mentioned.
I wonder what's next?
Modern Humans port to Legacy in4spikes, duh.
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I don't think the potential for blowout Mind Twists are better than playing many of the other big haymakers available to these decks. Doesn't affect things on board, can't control the draw step, big sorcery-speed investment in a format where Force is in 60% of decks, etc. I don't think there's a way that Elves could play a Twist for >2 on turn 2 anyway, and turn 3 discard 3+ is pretty fair considering what else Elves could be doing that turn or what other decks do at that time.
An artifact deck could go like:
Ancient Tomb -> Grim Monolith
Urborg -> twist for 5
But isn't just playing Reality Smasher there better? It's as good as a Hymn if they remove it, and if they don't the game is just over in 4 turns.
That's not to say there can't be a good Mind Twist deck but that deck would have to be insane to be better than what's available now.
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