This is probably the most solid list to deal with creatures-based decks, but you istantly lose the game by any artifact or enchantment card that doesn't allow you to attack your opponent. You should run one shooter/siege-gang in MD, you won't concede if an opponent casts moat/ensnaring bridge at least :)Originally Posted by Hanni
Same thing for stingscourger, how do you deal with reanimator?
i mean, sideboard is ok, but having no toolboxes makes you lose every "strange" matchup.
If my opponent resolves an Ensnaring Bridge and can dump their hand so that I cannot attack with 1/x Goblins, then I lose game one. How likely am I to run into decks with MD Ensnaring Bridge in game one? I can beat decks with other artifacts without needing to remove them; equipment isn't a problem if my opponent has no creatures, not enough mana, or I kill them before it has a huge impact. How many matchups have relevant MD artifacts? Tuktuk is an awful creature in most matchups.
I agree, I'm completely cold to resolved enchantments that prevent me from doing anything, like Moat, Energy Field + Rest in Peace, Solitary Confinement, etc. How likely am I to run into those? Is it worth it to contort my deck to be able to deal with less than 1% of the meta?
Warren Weirding is a little bit worse against Reanimator than Stingscourger, but it's much better against everything else. I'd rather play Weirding maindeck and Stingscourger sideboard.
Losing the toolbox hurts a few matchups, but dramatically improves everything else. The toolbox approach isn't necessarily wrong, but most people go way too overboard on the 1-of's. Personally, I'm satisfied with my approach, but I don't expect everyone else to agree with it.
Honestly, I haven't tested it, but I love the idea behind this list. This list is fucking great. You just cut all the bullshit.
Cavern- gone
Port- gone
Toolbox- gone
Fatties- gone
Tricks- gone
How do you beat combo G1? You don't, just like every other Goblins build. How do you beat combo G2? Discard. What anti-combo strategy is best against all combo in general? Discard. Easy. Straightforward.
2 Warren Weirding = awesome. Kills all the fatties. Kills all the TNN. Kills all the equipped dudes.
This list will obviously out-grind every fair deck in the format.... I mean just look at the top decklists right now....
Grixis Pyromancer - Out grind
Eldrazi - Out grind
4c Control - Out grind
Death and Taxes - Out grind
DeathBlade - Out grind
Ad Nauseam Tendrils - Lose
Elves - Toss up
UR Burn - Out grind
Team America - Out grind
BUG Control - Out grind
Lands - Out grind
Dragon Stompy - Out grind
Sneak Attack - Lose
Blade Control - Out grind
Dark Depths - Lose
Berserk Stompy - Out grind
Aggro Loam - Out grind
Miracle Control - Out grind
Dredge - Who?
BR Reanimator - Lose
I honestly think your list is well positioned to take on the format. It will lose to combo, but we always lose to combo anyway.
Running a ton of fetchlands means you will have the B mana when you need it. They allow you to completely ignore your opponents' Wastes.
Skipping Cavern and running fetchlands opens you to FoW and Stifle, but who cares? FoW normally hits Vial T1 anyway and Stifel has plenty of ETB triggers to hit so its not like it was a dead draw without Fetches to target. So you have nominal downside there but you become considerably more consistent for building your manabase this way.
I would absolutely try this list at a tournament sometime.
I do like the list as wel, only change i would make is adding 1 SGC. Wich is absolutley devestating in this build.
You can ad a SGC as a card #61 i suppose because of your number of warchief and unfuckable mana-base i dont see any problems. You might switch 1 tarfire for a pyrokines because of al the 1/2 toughnes creatures in the meta.
About the mana base i Think this list needs ports. Aggro the shit out of your opponent and dont allow them to cast stuf sounds good to me. Not playing cavern is a budget reason i Guess??.
Sweet list iam going of my toolbox list, and Just going to aggro the fuck out of my opponent like jrw said.
Even vs a turn 3 or 4 combo deck we have a chance. And there arent many turn 2 combo decks. Except for reanimator strategies
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Not running Cavern or Port are not budget decisions. Both lands expose me to opposing Wasteland's, and the colorless from Port reduces the amount of red mana sources.
I don't need Port as a two mana play when I have 10 2cc spells (14 if you count Gempalm). There are times when Port would be great, but those usually involve an AEther Vial.
There are a couple of matchups where Cavern of Souls is great. Basically, matchups with countermagic and no Wasteland; Miracles, Food Chain, Czech Pile, Stoneblade, Infect, Sneak Show, UB Reanimator. However, many of those are already good matchups, and there are way more matchups where the opponent has Wasteland.
On the other hand, having 16 sources of basic Mountain allows me to consistently develop my manabase, regardless if the opponent has Wasteland or not. Developing our mana is extremely important. Our curve is much higher than most of the rest of the format, so it is imperative that we be resilient to Wasteland.
The extra red sources makes casting multiple Goblins much more consistent during the midgame. I almost always have double red, and even triple red for the times when I want to play all of the Goblins I drew off of a Ringleader.
Having 12 black sources makes Weirding more reliable, as well as the postboard discard plan.
TL;DR Cavern and Port makes the manabase vulnerable to opposing Wasteland for not enough benefit. Most of the matchups where Cavern is good are already great matchups. Having more black sources and basic mountains makes the manabase more consistent.
Don't really know how you guys play the deck, but cavern is a MUST in this deck.
If you don't have a vial what are you going to do? Play your ringleader at turn five to avoid daze? And if it gets forced?
Be serious, cavern allows you playing your creatures safely. It shouldn't be cut for any reason, especially when blue is the most played color in the format. Seems like a sort of madness to me, got too many matrons forced looking for a freaking cavern in too many games. (:
Amen to that i never leave home without them
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Yeah I dunno why people are suggesting that we can just cut both caverns and ports and be okay. Good luck beating a tempo deck when you can’t cast anything on curve. Our traditional strengths against control decks also gets diminished greatly when cards like Fow and Counterspell are good against us. We can outgrind most fair decks, but that’s only if our stuff actually resolves in the first place.
Also, we *cannot* outgrind lands. Nothing in the format can without stuff like surgical/relic.
If you don't have a Vial and your opponent destroys one of your lands with Wasteland, you're not playing your Ringleader until turn 5 anyway. Chances are pretty high that if the opponent has Daze, they're using it way before you cast a Ringleader.
Wasteland is a bigger problem for Goblins than Force of Will is. Most opponent's are cutting their Force of Will's postboard anyway.
Regardless, to each his own.
The entire point in cutting Port and Cavern is to improve matchups like tempo by making the manabase more resilient to Wasteland. It's irrelevant if your Goblins are uncounterable if you don't have enough mana to cast them. It sounds more like no one has actually tried a manabase like the one I used, and are stuck in a hivemind mentality where cards like Port and Cavern are sacred cows that cannot be touched.
There's definitely benefits to Cavern and Port in some matchups, but there's also matchups where Cavern does nothing but give the opponent a target for Wasteland.
I definitely hate losing to wasteland in my mono red deck, but my solution to this thus far has just to play more lands. I’ve tried cavernless and portless builds when I was first building the deck a few years ago. Portless I think is reasonable, Sandro’s consistent results without any ports speaks to this, and I’ve played portless lists I’ve liked before. . However, win results just will tick up against the blue decks with a set of caverns. It particularly helps in game 1 situations where you cavern out a lackey and then there’s a decent shot they just die staring at a Fow. I can see 3 caverns being better than 4 in some situations, perhaps 4 tarfire builds with ports should only play 3.
If you want to build a manabase that doesn’t have cavern or port, you’ll be more consistent than the conventional mana, but markedly less powerful. Unfortunately, goblins right now lacks both power and consistency.
Folks seem to have forgotten than Goblins was great against FoW long before Cavern was printed.
True that but i Guess that was in a time were DRS and Stoneforge didnt exist
. That in my oppinion was the reason why goblins was great in that aera;) if they ever ban DRS (for being the best planeswalker out there, wich sounds reasonable to me) Goblins will rule again.
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Exactly, when lackey was still able to connect
Goblins has also upgraded from Mogg Fanatic to Tarfire since then. DRS is certainly a roadblock in connecting with Lackey on the play, but there were tons of situations where you couldn't get in with a turn 1 Lackey on the draw... namely, a turn 2 Tarmogoyf. I really don't think DRS is solely responsible for why Goblins is no longer a force in the meta. Honestly, I'd argue that the vast improvements to combo decks over the last 8 years is a much bigger reason.
4 wastes
4 caverns
15 red sources (fetches/mountains)
Do you really think that it's not solid enough?
I think that it's unbreakable :O
It's the only creature in the format who has body 2 at cc1; and makes too much advantage ramping mana.
In a time where shaman did not exist, players had to play noble hierarch to speed up their plays. And imagine this scenario: are you really going to sacrifice your hierarch to prevent a T1 lackey?
So yeah, DRS is probably the reason why goblins is no longer a force in the meta. (Miracles was an easy matchup, terminus wasn't a problem we all know that)
Is no one playing winstagators anymore by the way?
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FoW is way less an issue for us than daze without caverns. The tempo decks have become so blindingly efficient nowadays (largely with DRS, but Angler is another symbol of this) that the drawback of daze barely matters for them. 2008 Canadian Threshold is not what we’re dealing with here. We’re the oldest deck in the format by a pretty large margin, and we just haven’t had an efficient straight upgrade to the deck in forever.
If you want to build a Portless and Cavernless manabase, take a look at some of the old lists from 2007-2011. You see a lot of maindeck stp and a heavy white splash, maybe that’s worth exploring again. I think staying mono red will just make us too weak on a sheer power-level basis.
i still like instigator lists, but i haven't played goblins for a while. tend to play R with plateaus for sb, along with wasteland and pendelhaven. no ports in my lists. (although you could try to be greedy. tbh i haven't played it since czech pile started seeing playing. not sure how the deck would be now.
it might make more sense to play it with black for kologhan's command. i saw someone post it earlier either on here or facebook.
-rob
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