[Deck] Boros Deck Wins

[Evil Roopey]

I couldn't find a discussion on this so I decided tp start a new one.

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [P2] Mountain (1)
2 [U] Plains (3)
3 [R] Plateau
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
4 [AP] Goblin Legionnaire
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
1 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 [8E] Savannah Lions
4 [SC] Silver Knight

// Spells
4 [U] Lightning Bolt
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
4 [JU] Lava Dart
4 [OD] Firebolt
3 [7E] Pillage

SB:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 REB
1 Pyroblast
4 Orim's Chant
2 Jotun Grunt

It's more of a aggro/control route than a aggro route, but you get the point. I really like the amount of 2-for-1 cards in the deck. Pillage is nessecary to answer Vial and gives you LD. This list is 61 cards, but I can't figure out what to cut, especially since I want to add the 4th Pillage in there.

I haven't done much testing outside of winning the local tourny with this last weekend. It seems to beat Goblins pretty well and will most likely beat a lot of randomness. Pyrostatic Pillar also seems like a good maindeck choice, but I haven't tested it.

[Ta Jugs]

Where is Chain lightning? Grim lavamancer? Why play pillage when you can play molten rain. I dont like only 1 Isamaru. Firebolt is a terrible card and only sees play in extended because there is that slim chance you can hit 5.

[Cait_Sith]

He's Dedicated RW. Helix > Chain Lightning is SO MANY WAYS it isn't funny. (In R/W anyway). You only have 9 colored mana producers, and 5 are non-basic. Has that hurt you much yet (It seems like it could cause some serious problem vs gobs)

Pillage > Stone Rain. It kills ARTIFACTS. Vials, Ravagers with no dude to modulate, Mycosynth Lattice, they all fall before pillage (In addition to annoying lands). BDW can actually make good use of firebolt since it isn't too hard to hit 5 mana is you are using low cost beaters coupled with DD.

How are you gonna do your SB Ropey? I would like to see that.

[etrigan]

Agree regarding Firebolt.

If you're serious about the LD element, I think you should add Stone Rains, and maybe some Tangle Wires or something. Otherwise, cut Pillage. I think decks need to be serious about LD if they want to do it successfully.

The amount of Fetchlands looks rather high. Definitely more than normal. But maybe it works. It would have to be tested.

I dont like the singleton Isamaru either. Run more. He's awesome.

[Ta Jugs]

How is the amount of fetchlands high it always runs more than they can fetch for. Why do you agree that firebolt is good? Would you rather pay 1 for 2d or 1 for 3d. You dont usually want to tap out for two and half the time you never reach 5. I dont understand your logic on a card that is barely playable in extended. Also molten rain is fine as the only LD spell. If you both agree tapping out for two is fine in a deck like this for whatever reason, why not destroy a land and have them take 2 for 3.

[Cait_Sith]

I also play Stabdard alot, so I get a good feel for BDW and this is almost identical in its the formatting. The burn is designed to kill enemy creatures, not enemy faces. Chain Lightning can be sent back at YOUR creatures, making it slightly situational and possible tempo disadvantage.

Besides, what can 3 kill that 2 cannot on the creature front?

Also, if you DO reach that 5 mana mark, Chain will be useless in the 'yard while the Bolt can come back swinging.

[Ta Jugs]

Do you now . Well if you acually do play standard then you would now that over 75% of the decks are control decks and combo decks. So actually you DO send all of the burn spells at their face. Im sure you have a lot of creature spells to kill in tron and dragonstorm. But I would assume you already know that because apparently you play a lot of standard. Whats your constructed rating I'm dying to know. Don't post if you dont know what your talking about.

[Cait_Sith]

Please justify cutting firebolt for chain lightning? Try something more impressive that "you won't hit 5 land" since I showed that is it a better card in spite of the fact that you are less likely to hit 5 land.

Edit: I changed this to be more polite.

[Solpugid]

Whoa, Jugs, Cait, simmer down a tad. You both have opinions, and points for backing up those opinions. Now you just need to test the deck yourselves and post results, with practical examples of when one card would be better over another. Without evidence you won't be able to change peoples' minds. People are by nature a tad stubborn.

Upon looking at the deck, I wouldn't think lava dart nor firebolt is a very good choice, but then again I haven't tested this deck (since I dislike playing aggro) so I'll shut up and leave the discussion to people actually playing the thing.

[Cait_Sith]

Lava Dart is nice because it can disrupt both Gobs and Thresh early on, but I am thinking he doesn't have enough mountains to flash is back without risking his mana base. As it stands replacing them with Chain WOULD be a good idea.

[Togit460]

First of all regarding chain vs. firebolt.

Firebolt is sub-optimal for the following reasons; it only hits for 2, and if your deck does it's job then hitting 5 mana shouldn't be an issue, this deck needs to win by turn 4 in a goldfish which chain helps, not to mention it seems slow anyways compared with goblins, which have card draw something this deck wants. I'm not saying that this deck can't win, but it needs more pro-red for the goblins matchup, and needs to get faster and more consistent... quickly...

[Cait_Sith]

Firebolt is actually optimal for creature control and that is the principle use of burn in BDW. Why?

1: In all the upper Tier decks, there are relatively few powerful creatures with 3 toughness. This makes the difference between Chain and Bolt relatively small on the creature front.

2: It gives the deck at least SOME late game options, which is severly lacks right now.

3: It doesn't run the risk of being sent back at you, which Chain does. This is probably the weakest reason to run Bolt of Chain.

I am starting to be unimpressed by the Grunts. They are big yes, but without someway of refilling your hand your yard doesn't fill and they can run out rather quickly. Try some Soltari Priests maybe? Personally I would find a way to include Wildfire and Pro-Red in this deck, janky? Probably, but funny as heck.

[kirdape3]

Boros Deck Wins is a very strong candidate for Deck to Play at Columbus. Properly built versions should go at least 7/3 against Goblins, your Threshold game is not awful at all and while there might be a lot of High Tide I wouldn't want to play it if the field is as heavily Threshold-ed as it was at Philadelphia.

Here's what I have and why those choices are in there.

4 Savannah Lions
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Jackal Pup
4 Silver Knight
3 Jotun Grunt

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
4 Incinerate
3 Cursed Scroll

4 Plateau
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
2 Mountains

Sideboard:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Pithing Needle
3 Disenchant
3 Tividar of Thorn
1 Worship/Fledgling Dragon/Jitte/other

The sideboard probably is awful since I haven't played a deck like this in Legacy in awhile.

Creatures: With 11 2 power for one mana creatures, you're almost guaranteed to have a start of land, overpowered creature, go. People often question specifically Jackal Pup but against two of the three guaranteed decks (Threshold and High Tide) his drawback is irrelevant and you'd rather be dealing damage immediately rather than trying to fill the graveyard to get Grim Lavamancer online. Mogg Fanatic only attacks for 1 damage and a skilled opponent will not let you 2 for 1 them with it. Silver Knight is pretty awesome, and First Strike is actually really powerful against Threshold when backed by a Cursed Scroll (nice guys you got there tks). 3 Grunts is a lot but you actually should be filling the graveyard extremely quickly anyways between throwing various burn spells at things, fetchlands, and creature combat. This guy used to be Legionnaire except he doesn't attack the combo decks for 4 damage immediately.

Spells: Lightning Bolt is obvious. Chain Lightning is another solution to Lackey when you're on the draw (the only way Goblins can get you is to connect with Lackey at some point in the game) and I'll take 3 damage to burn that guy if I have to. It also tags the face for 3, which is extremely relevant. You're in a straight race with all the combo decks, and you can actually win that race if you have the ability to punch through the last six damage with burn. Lightning Helix is similarly obvious. Incinerate is very, very good just as 3 instant damage for R1 - it's basically an easier to cast Lightning Helix. I have literally no idea why people don't immediately want to play Cursed Scroll in this sort of deck. It kills literally every Goblin ever, it punches through the last damage against Threshold after the board is stabilized, and it gives you a real late game in case of emergencies. Silver Knight plus Scroll is a lock that Goblins can't penetrate, Vial or no.

Lands: 22 lands fuels Scroll plus stuff. 10 fetchlands is right to fuel Grunt as well as thin the deck out. I personally don't run Wasteland because the color requirements in the deck are very, very stringent plus I don't think that this deck really wants the three drop Pillage (I'd run Cryoclasm before that card, no lies). Barbarian Ring is a possibility as a two-of to replace a pair of basic lands.

The sideboard is probably obsolete and needs more combination hate somewhere. Chalice can't be used like it can in Goblins because setting it at one kills half your deck, but if you expect High Tide more than Ill-Gotten Gains you can probably just run Red Elemental Blast somewhere.

The reasons to play this deck are it's very strong Goblins matchup, it's solid Threshold matchup, and not a 0/100 game against combo at any point. It is however decidedly not a degenerate deck; you don't have 4 Black Lotuses, 4 Demonic Tutors, 4 Fact or Fictions, or 4 Swords to Plowshares in your deck. It is however a deck that appeals to people who just want to outplay idiots who can't play their degenerate decks all day long and a deck that punishes poor draws.

[Tao]

...your Threshold game is not awful at all

The Threshold matchup is nearly unwinnable, no matter what build you play. The Threshold matchup is worse than the 50/50 Combo matchup and "more negative than the Goblin matchup is positive". BDW has the same problem that Zoo decks have: Threshold plays superior creatures and their disruption (Removal, Countermagic) comes online on turn 1. Grunt is the only spell in BDW that really needs to be countered or Sworded. Their Removal trades 1/1 while yours trades 1-2 and in the late game you will lose because they create card quality and because you have no way to get through a threshed Mongoose.

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Where is Chain lightning? Grim lavamancer? Why play pillage when you can play molten rain. I dont like only 1 Isamaru. Firebolt is a terrible card and only sees play in extended because there is that slim chance you can hit 5.

I agree with most things you said. But Grim Lavamancer lacks synergy with Grunt, so you maybe have to decide for one. There is no reason to run only 1 Isamaru and they should be upped to 3. I would also always play Chain over Firebolt. About Molten Rains: Aether Vial is a really strong argument because Goblins is the most played deck in the format. If Vial is in play Pillage on Vial is infinitely stronger than Molten Rain on Rishadan Port. Furthermore it takes out Jitte and Chalice.
___

*deck

I like Kird Apes build a lot. But the Manabase needs improvement: I think you can play the RDW manabase from old Extended: 8 Fetchlands, 8 Denial-Lands (4 Port, 4 Wastes) and 8 Mana producing lands. Maybe 10 fetchies and only 6 producing lands in this.
Going turn 1 Isamaru, Turn 2 Waste and Bolt, Turn 3 Tap with Port is really strong.

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SB: In the SB you should definetely play Shattering Spree: It is a brilliant gamebreaker against Faerie Stompy, Affinity and Staxx and very strong against Angel Stompy. Furthermore: Chalice > BDW and Spree > Chalice.

[kirdape3]

I'm not sure that your colors will hold up if you go with 8 colorless sources in a deck that requires (W/R)(W/R) to function on turn 2 and every turn thereafter. That's the only reason - the logical cuts would be a single Grunt and a Chain Lightning even though I love having 16 3 damage burn spells.

[Solpugid]

About the threshold match: I've played my UGw and UGr thresh against my friend's RW a lot, and the match is heavily in my favor but not unwinnable. He runs a much more controllish build, though, which is far slower (has terrible combo match-ups) but has game against thresh.

It runs flametongue kavu, goblin legionnaires, and fledgling dragons. Truthfully, the deck looks massively janky, but it works. And MAN does it massacre goblins.

[kirdape3]

I mean, I end up getting say 6-8 damage from somewhere and then burning the face for the rest. It's not a tournament winning strategy normally, but it's akin to playing completely Philosophy of Fire rather than just losing to bigger creatures.

That being said, Price of Progress is downright rude if you can stick that card. You can also just yank their biggest creatures with Threaten or something and smash them with it.

[Cavius The Great]

I've designed a deck very similiar to Roopeys build, the only difference being my deck has a black splash for Duress, therapies and Confidant. It works fairly well but it's relatively slow.

[Eldariel]

The deck should definitely play more Isamarus; being a Legend is far smaller a drawback than dying to Mogg Fanatic, especially since 2/2s live to die.

[scrumdogg]

Spree also > Vial.....and since Chalice at 1 wrecks you, why wouldn't you run Sprees in the board? Are there enough artifacts for you to run Pillage Game 1? Although I can also see it being used as a way to set them back a turn as LD, since you can be either aggro or control depending on the matchup & game state. Threshold shouldn't be horrible as you have more creatures than they do & reach. You also have a sideboard which can & should include Crypts & Pillars (or possibly STP) as well as Needles. Depending on what you expect to see, you have a wide range of possibilities for the SB, but why would anyone expect Thresh to disappear for Columbus? It was out in force for Philly, same for Lille, & it makes consistent appearances in D4Ds etc etc. I expect it out in force at Columbus & am prepared for it (and conversely, even if Goblins were shakier otherwise, the fact that they have a decent Thresh matchup guarantees them showing up in force). Done right, this deck beats Goblins & can beat Thresh, so why not develop it?