[Deck] Belcher

[kicks_422]

I've been using it in my build since CS came out. It's a great ritual alongside Dark and Cabal, and castable after a Tinder Wall sacrifice.

[Bane of the Living]

Does anyone have a nice list with it in place? I heard theyre printing ESG in red for a timeshifted card in PC. Im sure it have a place in the deck but does it replace ESG or get play along side it? How many?

[APriestOfGix]

for living wish builds w/ welders (mine) i like to have an ornithopter in the board, i very often go turn 1 welder, LED, turn 2 wish, thopper, play thopper, crack LED, discarding Belcher, win...

[APriestOfGix]

sorry foe the double post...


here is my current list, hasn't changes much as it's been working REALLY well...


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [A] Taiga
1 [A] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
3 [UL] Goblin Welder

// Spells
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [4E] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
3 [JU] Living Wish
4 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [US] Duress
4 [TSP] Chromatic Star
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MM] Brainstorm - Changing to the Red ESG when PC come out...

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UL] Goblin Welder
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 4 [DS] Oxidize
SB: 1 [9E] Viridian Shaman
SB: 3 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 1 [AQ] Ornithopter
SB: 1 [8E] City of Brass

[Alfred]

No Simian Spirit Guide? I know it hasn't come out yet, but it's free acceleration.

[xsockmonkeyx]

4 [MM] Brainstorm - Changing to the Red ESG when PC come out...

[Sugar Woof]

When Simian Spirit Guide comes out I don't think taking out all the brainstorms is the right thing to do. Yeah it's another free acceleration but power of brainstorm in the deck is too much to give up for another free accelerator. Yes I do agree that SSG should go in, but not taking out brainstroms, some combo of ESG/SSG would be the right amount. Back to brainstorm, I have no idea how many times that I've cracked sphere and brainstormed to draw into a win. Being able to do that is too good to take out.

[kicks_422]

I've been working on a build that runs both Goblin Charbelcher and Empty the Warrens as win conditions. It's been running smoothly, but with a few kinks that I'm trying to work out.

I don't use Cabal Rituals in the deck, as I've seen that when I hit threshold, I've probably already lost or won. I replaced them with Rite of Flames. I also run 4 each of ESG and SSG.

I'll post a list when I've figured out the best build for it.

[APriestOfGix]

first off, the amazing power of what belcher COULD do...


<-------- New Game Started -------->
Mikey McHogshorts's Security Code: CEAA0C80 [Type 1.5]
A Priest of Gix's Security Code: BAF14B62 [Type 1.5]
It is now turn 1 (A Priest of Gix)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
A Priest of Gix rolled a 20, using a 20 sided die
Mikey McHogshorts shuffles library
A Priest of Gix shuffles library
A Priest of Gix shuffles library
Mikey McHogshorts rolled a 10, using a 20 sided die
Mikey McHogshorts shuffles library
A Priest of Gix draws 7 cards
Mikey McHogshorts shuffles library
Mikey McHogshorts shuffles library
Mikey McHogshorts draws a card
Mikey McHogshorts draws a card
Mikey McHogshorts draws a card
Mikey McHogshorts draws a card
Mikey McHogshorts draws a card
Mikey McHogshorts draws a card
Mikey McHogshorts draws a card
<A Priest of Gix> keep
<Mikey McHogshorts> kp
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
A Priest of Gix plays Land Grant from Hand
Mikey McHogshorts is looking opponent's Hand...
A Priest of Gix puts Land Grant to Graveyard from Play
A Priest of Gix is looking its Library...
A Priest of Gix puts Bayou into play from Library
A Priest of Gix shuffles library
A Priest of Gix stops looking its Library...
A Priest of Gix plays Lion's Eye Diamond from Hand
A Priest of Gix taps Bayou
A Priest of Gix plays Duress from Hand
<A Priest of Gix> ...
<System> Player Lost




I am going to pull 2 ESG for SSG as they arn't really all that good. Belcher has a fine time w/ mana, it's finding the belcher that i have trouble with, so kicks is right the brainstorm stay...

[Sugar Woof]

As my post said earlier, I'll keep brainstorm and my build will probably have something like 3 ESG/2 SSG or 4/1 depending on how testing goes. As of lately I've been testing out a non living wish build but I don't have enough results yet to determine anything but I'll be back with them later.

[APriestOfGix]

i think the SSG could go in for Cabal Therapy, as it's 2 mana, and almsot never cast w/ thresh.

[DeathwingZERO]

I believe you meant Cabal Ritual. Anyways, I personally don't see either way what reasoning there is to care about whether or not you play 4 ESG or 4 SSG. They're essentially the same card, as rarely you will ever need green or red.

I'm still seeing lists with Brainstorms though, yet nothing running more than 4 Spoils of the Vault. Did anyone bother reading the post I had? A card only drawing into 3 and putting 2 back with only minimal (Land Grant) shuffle effects is horrible for your consistency issues, and that's the decks only losing point.

Has anyone been testing anymore of the tutors suggested? Better yet, why don't you put up some goldfish information with the listed decks, and at least show some defense for Brainstorm over the much better use of tutors. As I said before, this deck looks like it's gained nothing over 2 years worth of cards (with the exception of Infernal Tutor and Grim Tutor), and I highly doubt that's really going to change.

Also, has anyone done any real playtesting versus the Top 3? Any idea how to race Solidarity's option of Brain Freeze'ing your kill away on turn 2, or maybe Thresh's FoW and Daze early game?

[kicks_422]

I run 4 Xantid Swarm MD and 4 Defense Grid SB, along with 4 Shattering Spree. I'm not afraid of Mage as I have a back-up win in Empty the Warrens.

Against Thresh and Solidarity (against anything with FoW, except Faerie Stompy), I side out 4 ESG for 4 Defense Grid. Against Goblins, I side out the Swarms for 4 Shattering Spree.

[BreathWeapon]

I believe you meant Cabal Ritual. Anyways, I personally don't see either way what reasoning there is to care about whether or not you play 4 ESG or 4 SSG. They're essentially the same card, as rarely you will ever need green or red.

I'm still seeing lists with Brainstorms though, yet nothing running more than 4 Spoils of the Vault. Did anyone bother reading the post I had? A card only drawing into 3 and putting 2 back with only minimal (Land Grant) shuffle effects is horrible for your consistency issues, and that's the decks only losing point.

Has anyone been testing anymore of the tutors suggested? Better yet, why don't you put up some goldfish information with the listed decks, and at least show some defense for Brainstorm over the much better use of tutors. As I said before, this deck looks like it's gained nothing over 2 years worth of cards (with the exception of Infernal Tutor and Grim Tutor), and I highly doubt that's really going to change.

Also, has anyone done any real playtesting versus the Top 3? Any idea how to race Solidarity's option of Brain Freeze'ing your kill away on turn 2, or maybe Thresh's FoW and Daze early game?

Empty the Warrens, Infernal Tutor, Right of Flame and Simian Spirit Guide are all major additions to the deck; the difference between ESG and SSG is astronomical, because one resolves Xantid Swarm, the other resolves Goblins Welder, one imprints Green on Chrome Mox, one imprints Red on Chrome Mox, one resolves Tinder Wall and the other resolves Right of Flame and Seething Song.

SSG, Right of Flame and Seething Song is one of the best acceleration packages available, and it wouldn't be possible with out SSG producing Red instead of Green.

People also need to step back and reconsider their design, Infernal Tutor and Plunge into Darkness are the cornerstones of this deck; the first for having synergy with Lion's Eye Diamond and the second for giving the deck an Impulse/Spoils of the Vault effect that can find either Goblin Charbelcher or Empty the Warrens with out RFGing yourself.

[kicks_422]

All the cards you mentioned are in my build, except Seething Song and Goblin Welder. I didn't need him anymore after ETW was fit into the deck.

It works like a charm, with the occasional bad hand. Hey, any combo deck gets that...

[Bryant Cook]

I love how the deck is beginning to look more and more like TES, Infernal, Rite of Flame, ETW I'm just waiting for the singleton MD Tendrils of Agony ;p.
I think the direction that Kicks422 is taking is probably the best option seeing as the list posted above was old and outdated.

[BreathWeapon]

Is there a reason to MD Xantid Swarm over Duress? Duress gives the deck additional black cards to Imprint to Chrome Mox, it removes Force of Will and Counterspell, it removes them on the same turn as comboing out, and it doesn't let the opponent use his Swords to Plowshares to bring his Force of Will back online.

Xantid Swarm seems better in the SB, where it can capitalize on the opponent SBing out his creature removal; similar to Dark Confidant.

Is Living Wish still worth consideration? Goblin Welder, Xantid Swarm, Dark Confidant, Ancient Tomb, City of Brass, remove based creatures and alternate win conditions don't seem that bad.

Ill Gotten Gains and Tendrils of Agony isn't a bad idea, either in the MD or the SB, the deck has Infernal Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond, more acceleration than TES or IGGY, and it avoids hate designed for Goblin Charbelcher and Empty the Warrens. Vintage Belcher used a singleton Tendrils for the same reasons, it just costs us an additional MD slot.

[kicks_422]

@wastedlife: I also tried out Tendrils as a back-up. It wasn't any good, as the deck rarely ups the storm to 10. ETW is perfect though, as a storm of 5-7ish is already a good one. Plus you can't ignore the flavor of having Goblins along with their Charbelcher...

@Breathweapon: MD Xantid Swarm over Duress for the same reasons in TES. Duress takes out only one counter, Swarm nullifies all. If they StP it, that's fine by me... But if they actually dug for the card, then that's something that I'd like to see, opponents scrambling for creature removal against combo.

My next step in the deck is trying to incorporate Living Wish. I might cut mana producers for it though, as the list is so tight...

EDIT: Here's a roughly optimal decklist (well, at least for me).

1 Bayou
1 Taiga

4 Xantid Swarm

4 Land Grant
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 ESG
2 SSG

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Living Wish

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens

SB
4 Defense Grid
4 Shattering Spree
1 Gemstone Mine
1 SSG
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Ghost-Lit Raider
1 Wild Cantor
1 Priest of Gix

The last 3 cards in the SB I'm not sure of. The Raider I figured would be good uncounterable Mage removal which doesn't need Threshold, though the 3R needed is pretty high. The last two I threw in for Storm coun purposes, though I've never actually Wished for them yet.

I just finished a match against Solidarity, 2-0. First game, I laid 8 Goblins Turn 1. He tried Turnabout two straight turns, but I laid a Belcher FTW on the following turn. Second game, went like this:

Turn 1: Bayou, Lotus Petal, Defense Grid (he actually conceded after this, as he said he had no land)
Turn 2 (would have been): Chrome Mox imprinting Spoils, LED, LED, tap Mox for Spoils for Belcher, sac 2 LED while on stack (floating 6), cast Belcher (6 cards away), tap Bayou FTW.

Nice, huh?

Oh, and as for Spoils vs. Plunge again. In TES, it's used as a cantrip, as the whole deck is designed to combo off no matter what pieces you have in and (though I still use Spoils in TES - what can I say, I'm a risk-taker... ), but here, what we need is a tutor.

4 Spoils could go for 4 Plunge though, if necessary.

[BreathWeapon]

Goblin Welder is just as good as Xantid Swarm in the MD against counterspells, and he also allows the deck to accelerate out Goblin Charbelcher with Lion's Eye Diamond or recur Goblin Charbelcher after a removal card. Xantid Swarm is going to slow this deck down, because instead of casting Goblin Charbelcher first and testing the waters for Force of Will, the deck casts Xantid Swarm, waits a turn and gets Pithing Needled.

Plunge into Darkness is better than Spoils of the Vault, because Plunge into Darkness can find either Empty the Warrens or Goblin Charbelcher. If the deck relied on Goblin Charbelcher to win, I would agree with you, but Empty the Warrens or Tendrils of Agony are just as good.

Have you tried using 4 SSG and 4 Seething Song instead of 4 ESG and 4 Tinder Wall?

The Living Wish SB should have a Xantid Swarm, Goblin Welder, Dark Confidant, Ancient Tomb, City of Brass an alternate win condition (Minion of the Wastes) and removal (that G, G/Tap sacrifice to destroy an artifact guy) before anything else.

This is the rough shell I have,

4 Goblin Charbelcher

1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Empty the Warrens

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Plunge into Darkness

4 Unmask (could be Cabal Therapy)
4 Duress

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal

4 Seething Song
4 Right of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Land Grant
1 Taiga
1 Bayou

I'm using Duress and Unmask to protect Land Grant from counterspells and Empty the Warrens from mass removal and to imprint black mana on Chrome Mox. The manabase is shifted towards red, so all of the acceleration can chain except for Dark Ritual.

Ill Gotten Gains and Tendrils of Agony are place holders for better cards, if anything they belong in the SB.

[Bane of the Living]

When I was playing the deck I liked Tinder Wall alot as an answer to Lackey. It also killed a couple Meddling Mages who's owners were dumb enough to attack it. Its great with Therapy as well.