A bizarre comment. People will have a recognisable archetype within the meta, or an interesting brew using cards common in the meta. My concern is that they play intelligently with what they have. As for deck innovation, that is not typically a high-cost excercise. I constantly change and develop my U/R delver deck, but that is not a costly thing to do because the main cash expense of the deck is the landbase which doesn't really change, and this applies to the vast majority of legacy archetypes.Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit
As for price... so what? If you cut the asking price of grim monolith, you will sell it quickly. If you don't want to cut the price, you accept it will take longer to sell. This is completely irrelevant to long-term price erosion which could result from WotC deciding it was going to reprint grim monolith.
Again: Is good players playing bad decks the kind of high quality play you were looking for?
Cutting prices is the literal opposite of preserving prices.As for price... so what? If you cut the asking price of grim monolith, you will sell it quickly. If you don't want to cut the price, you accept it will take longer to sell. This is completely irrelevant to long-term price erosion which could result from WotC deciding it was going to reprint grim monolith.
Why are these hypothetical good players playing bad decks?
Your first response was regarding the potential for reduced player pool to cause reduced demand which might affect prices. I agree, it might, but only if you wanted a quick sale. The evidence so far is that prices are stable or rising despite the supposedly catastrophic loss in player population caused by the reserve list. Abolishing the reserve list would create a completely different effect as it would cause a long-term loss of value.
that's a straw-man leading question and you know it. ask your question using different words.
there are several avenues to play any deck you want; from proxies to cockatrice.
and if you must play in a sanctioned tournament there are many different ways to compete;
borrow cards (friends?), play a niche meta-game deck or even play (gasp) shocks... i.e. dark depths hogaak costs about $400.
and here's my favorite: get a job, sell stuff or save money and go buy that dual land that you feel you "need" to compete.
i want 4 guardian beast. i know if i save a little and sell off extra stuff, i can probably buy one in a month.
I guess i'm just a good player playing a bad deck?
The people you already agreed are priced into certain decks?
A sale that takes a billion years to complete isn't relevant.Your first response was regarding the potential for reduced player pool to cause reduced demand which might affect prices. I agree, it might, but only if you wanted a quick sale. The evidence so far is that prices are stable or rising despite the supposedly catastrophic loss in player population caused by the reserve list. Abolishing the reserve list would create a completely different effect as it would cause a long-term loss of value.
Oh, we're at the part where the debate pedants throw out logical fallacies? Nice.
First, it's not a straw-man because the whole premise of the thread is that cards have value. What you're doing here is called a red herring: Obviously we're not talking about playing online, or without real cards. Obviously we're not including proxies. Bringing up methods to play magic beyond the topic of the conversation is irrelevant.
Now this fallacy here is called the one of a "false premise" namely that the $400 dollars is supposed to be cheap.and if you must play in a sanctioned tournament there are many different ways to compete;
borrow cards (friends?), play a niche meta-game deck or even play (gasp) shocks... i.e. dark depths hogaak costs about $400.
Ok, boomer.and here's my favorite: get a job, sell stuff or save money and go buy that dual land that you feel you "need" to compete.
i want 4 guardian beast. i know if i save a little and sell off extra stuff, i can probably buy one in a month.
I guess i'm just a good player playing a bad deck?
Glad we can now firmly establish you aren't interested in having a serious discussion.
It was that or explain to someone so out of touch with normal people that actually when 40% of Americans can't afford a $400 dollar expense them saying "just save harder" for the $375 card they listed is just fucking stupid but that would have been frowned upon.
Okay, but then, what is the budget? I mean if the numbers put forward aren't to your liking, then what would be?
I don't know, but 1500 for a play set of 375 cards ain't it.
Okay, well, for clarity, the deck non-inflammable referenced was ~$400 for 75 cards, not 1 card
Okay, well, for accuracy the post non-inflammable made said they wanted four copies of Guardian Beast, which when I googled was $375 each. That's $1500 for four copies, to say nothing of the cost of the remaining 71 cards in the deck.
Right that's fair, but, reading the whole of the post, are we then entertaining the merits of the argument that a deck needs to have (4) copies of Guardian Beast to compete in Legacy?
I could see some position one could come at thinking $400 is a lot for a whole deck, and we could talk about what that means, but if that's not what we're doing, then I'll withdraw the point.
Hey mods, can we just get a dedicated section of the forum for talking about reprints, finance, and the reserved list so I don't have to read this garbage in every fuckin thread?
You can go here.
Who are these hypothetical "normal people" you're talking about? I'm poor as shit, but I can afford to save up for a few months to buy a Legacy deck. Not to mention the fact that I recently bought one in Manaless Dredge, which cost me about $80 and is certainly viable even if it's not Delver.
The 40% who can't afford a $400 expense that I mentioned right after the words you fixated on. Read the whole post next time, k?
And amazing how you're using a deck that you admit is an inferior archetype, and you built it bad (no forces?) As evidence that anyone can save their way into legacy.
Basic lands are legacy legal and free anyone can build this lands brew I have that uses discount lands. I call it "basic lands dot dec" oh! And if you have all the pieces you can add four copies of battle of wits and now you have TWO legacy decks.
It's not only a question of being poor. I think it is also a question of putting that much money into a game.
Any normal person who doesn't know TCG's would probably be amazed by the amount of money we put into it especially knowing that the product can be reprinted for a tiny amount of money...
There is probably a virtual line that some people will not cross in order to play a game.
I mean, I have the money to buy any legacy deck, but i'm just reluctant to spend so much money while we're trying to be reasonnable when buying stuff for the house for example.
If duals were available at 20 or 40 a piece, that would be another story.
Also, about the quality of players, more players would mean more bad players, but also more good players. It would be balanced. Being able to afford a legacy deck that costs thousands of dollars doesn't mean you're smart and that you play the game well. It just means that you have money.
So if the format is democratized thanks to a less expensive entry point, that would probably be beneficial because the competition would be harder!
For me the only real problem is the value of cards which i can understand if people would be upset to loose money.
Right, so what is the dollar amount then?
What should Legacy cost?
$400 too much? So then what isn't too much?
We need a baseline to move from.
The baseline should, in theory, be predicated on the cost of dual lands and what would happen if they were reprinted. All of the other stuff is mainly fluff (I get it that stuff like Candelabra, Nether Void, etc. are all expensive and niche), but duals are what define Legacy.
So you'd need to look at three things:
1. What deck you want to build.
2. What duals you'd require to build it.
3. What the theoretical drop in price on a dual land would be if the RL were abolished and what it would wind up costing.
A lot of this is theory-crafting, because this would be unprecedented if it were to happen. People can say they'd go down, but no one knows with 100% certainty they would because existing metrics on pricing are for cards that could be reprinted already.
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