All B/R update speculation.

[non-inflammable]

What card is OUAT?

once upon a time

which would be a sad ban, i really like the card...

[Barook]

until Nykthos gets banned but they expressly stated they don't want to ban it.

No shit, the upcoming Theros set has Devotion cards. Maybe they're even going to reprint it. And as Oko has shown, they're unwilling to put format health over $$$.

[itslarryyo]

Whoops im too slow

[Cire]

No shit, the upcoming Theros set has Devotion cards. Maybe they're even going to reprint it. And as Oko has shown, they're unwilling to put format health over $$$.

Doubt they're going to reprint it, but yeah it is the premier Devotion card and devotion is back next set. That said, it seems very fair in other colors. The initial concern among pioneer boards was the card in Mono Blue devotion or Mono Black devotion, but those decks have ended up being really fair. Green devotion decks though seem like they are exclusively powered by OUAT (consistency compared to the rest of the field) and oddly enough Burning-Tree Emissary which acts like a "free" +2 devotion. That along with mana elves means that green devotion decks get Nyx up and running by turn 3 compared to other decks by turn 4-5.

[Ronald Deuce]

Hot take: At this point, can we finally admit that banning Sensei's Top, Gitaxian Probe, and Deathrite Shaman solved nothing?

I'm not saying other cards shouldn't have been banned (perhaps in their stead, like, idk, Counterbalance or Chalice of the Void), but we're still looking at largely the same dominant decks and strategies to piss off people who like an open format, the same most-played cards (?!?!) to piss off people who don't(?!?!?!?!?!?!?!), and the same one-turn-durdle play patterns to piss off everyone trying to build good decks. And sure, new cards are in some part responsible, but doesn't that in and of itself demonstrate that the bans were pointless given what was coming?

It's almost like Wizards doesn't plan ahead, or something.

[Megadeus]

It's almost like brainstorm has always been the issue but it will never be touched and therefore in reality nothing will ever actually change

[bruizar]

It's almost like brainstorm has always been the issue but it will never be touched and therefore in reality nothing will ever actually change

The problem has always been fetch lands, which enable Brainstorm and greedy manabases. WOTC seems to agree given Pioneer.

[Watersaw]

The problem has always been fetch lands, which enable Brainstorm and greedy manabases. WOTC seems to agree given Pioneer.

There's also the fact that non-blue fair decks still can't beat Dark Ritual.

[Fox]

There's also the fact that non-blue fair decks still can't beat Dark Ritual.

I don't see a problem here; there should be a cost to abandoning the stack to gain percentage points on the field. You barely even get punished for doing this with cards like Thalia, Teeg, Ouphe, Ethersworn, Chalice and company around. Get to 2 mana and win the game with a single card seems like pretty good odds against Dark Ritual + needs other specific cards.

The real issue with fair decks is that they get crapped on by B/R Reanimator - and that's entirely due to Chancellor of the Annex. Ban this card and blue decks will keep not-blue decks safe from Griselbrand out of B/R. Once they revert to responsible Reanimator [UBx], you'll also notice how that Griselbrand actually hates on Show and Tell's Grisels. As it is in big events, the less expensive B/R flood wipes out lots of fair decks in rounds 1 & 2, and then SnT comes in with their 1 or 2 byes and dodges all the bears (i.e. Grisel promotes more Grisel).

Chancellor is the mechanism by which your type of fair decks get pushed out of contention, and playing 11 & 12 card sideboards (Leyline) isn't helping you compete vs everyone else - especially SnT's Grisel, which fair deck pilots seem fixated on at all times.

[Megadeus]

I don't see a problem here; there should be a cost to abandoning the stack to gain percentage points on the field. You barely even get punished for doing this with cards like Thalia, Teeg, Ouphe, Ethersworn, Chalice and company around. Get to 2 mana and win the game with a single card seems like pretty good odds against Dark Ritual + needs other specific cards.

The real issue with fair decks is that they get crapped on by B/R Reanimator - and that's entirely due to Chancellor of the Annex. Ban this card and blue decks will keep not-blue decks safe from Griselbrand out of B/R. Once they revert to responsible Reanimator [UBx], you'll also notice how that Griselbrand actually hates on Show and Tell's Grisels. As it is in big events, the less expensive B/R flood wipes out lots of fair decks in rounds 1 & 2, and then SnT comes in with their 1 or 2 byes and dodges all the bears (i.e. Grisel promotes more Grisel).

Chancellor is the mechanism by which your type of fair decks get pushed out of contention, and playing 11 & 12 card sideboards (Leyline) isn't helping you compete vs everyone else - especially SnT's Grisel, which fair deck pilots seem fixated on at all times.

Sounds like we should just ban fucking Griselbrand to me

[MrFrowny_]

Hot take: At this point, can we finally admit that banning Sensei's Top, Gitaxian Probe, and Deathrite Shaman solved nothing?

I'm not saying other cards shouldn't have been banned (perhaps in their stead, like, idk, Counterbalance or Chalice of the Void), but we're still looking at largely the same dominant decks and strategies to piss off people who like an open format, the same most-played cards (?!?!) to piss off people who don't(?!?!?!?!?!?!?!), and the same one-turn-durdle play patterns to piss off everyone trying to build good decks. And sure, new cards are in some part responsible, but doesn't that in and of itself demonstrate that the bans were pointless given what was coming?

It's almost like Wizards doesn't plan ahead, or something.

I agree, since the Top banning, the format has gone slowly downhill. The banning killed numerous decks that saw play, albeit fringe, like Doomsday, Nic-fit, Painter, etc. Then again last year with the DRS banning, killing Jund, BUG Delver, and Deathblade. I somewhat agreed at the time with the bannings, but as time goes by, nothing has improved. Delver decks reign supreme with really no contest and hard control decks don't really exist anymore.

[Fox]

Sounds like we should just ban fucking Griselbrand to me

Griselbrand is just a big dumb power-creeped dude, and they’re gonna keep printing more cards like these to get ticked off about; banning it doesn’t really fix the underlying problem. The fact of the matter is that UBx Grisel is heavily antagonistic to SnT’s gameplan; so you save yourself a meaningless ban and allow the card to auto-regulate its own success. So if SnT gets beat down by UBx and UBx then gets beat down by hatebears, we’re in an okay place. It certainly doesn’t feel close when you [insert fair, not-blue deck] get blown-out by Reanimator, but you still have a chance at a real game when Chancellor isn’t there with a discard spell, forcing fair deck to have 3x free spells in their opening hand. Now a game against UBx is still going to end up in a not-close blow-out for either side (just like with SnT vs fair deck), but all those blue protection spots equals longer games with more decision points. It’s harder to justify Dark Rit when you can’t autowin vs fair deck because your opening hand happened to have a Chancellor in it (which got a massive buff with new mulligan rules, on top of DRS ban).

It’s just a kinda crappy point in time where fair deck has to have the smallest SBs in the format (Leyline), yet still also have cards vs SnT. Superimposed on that is Wrenn/Plague pushing out x/1 hatebears. Fewer bear decks [after BR mangles them in R1/2] and fewer actual bears [loss of SB slots, W&6] to threaten SnT.

So the Grisel losses might feel real bad, but you guys got decent compensation too. No longer are you getting your hands blown up with Hymn/Snapcaster, draw step Kcomm, repeat while having no card to play (other than perhaps Sylvan Library) which didn’t just autolose to Shatter/Shock modes and a flying 1/1 deathtouching cantrip.

We’re coming back around to the point where they need to unban DRS to help you guys out (and yes it would be stupid with Wrenn, but it’s also the only 1-drop that blanks a Wrenn), or start looking at cards like Chancellor. Given how fair decks are structured [one-dimensional, largely unable to disrupt an opposing strategy except by cheese’y hatebear hoser], it’s hard to justify banning cards they don’t like. Best to sit back and use blue to push out the truly offensive stuff.

[non-inflammable]

it's almost as if you banned brainstorm you could unban deathrite shaman, dig through time, treasure cruise, gitaxian probe and top.

then even possibly unbanning [insert favorite card here]? mine is mana drain.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

it's almost as if you banned brainstorm you could unban deathrite shaman, dig through time, treasure cruise, gitaxian probe and top.

then even possibly unbanning [insert favorite card here]? mine is mana drain.

[Watersaw]

I don't see a problem here; there should be a cost to abandoning the stack to gain percentage points on the field. You barely even get punished for doing this with cards like Thalia, Teeg, Ouphe, Ethersworn, Chalice and company around. Get to 2 mana and win the game with a single card seems like pretty good odds against Dark Ritual + needs other specific cards.

The real issue with fair decks is that they get crapped on by B/R Reanimator - and that's entirely due to Chancellor of the Annex. Ban this card and blue decks will keep not-blue decks safe from Griselbrand out of B/R. Once they revert to responsible Reanimator [UBx], you'll also notice how that Griselbrand actually hates on Show and Tell's Grisels. As it is in big events, the less expensive B/R flood wipes out lots of fair decks in rounds 1 & 2, and then SnT comes in with their 1 or 2 byes and dodges all the bears (i.e. Grisel promotes more Grisel).

Chancellor is the mechanism by which your type of fair decks get pushed out of contention, and playing 11 & 12 card sideboards (Leyline) isn't helping you compete vs everyone else - especially SnT's Grisel, which fair deck pilots seem fixated on at all times.

The point about fair blue decks keeping fair non-blue decks in contention seems a bit silly. The cards that would in theory propel Jund whatever to tier 2 work just as well in Uxx goodstuff. The Force Spike deck is by nature better at keeping itself and it's hate alive vs. combo. And planning to just dodge the matchup isn't going to pay off in the long run. To be clear I don't think we need to banTendrils or anything, I just think it's a bummer that good, generalized stack interaction is locked to blue. Maybe Veil of Summer has enough applications to mainboard

In regards to Chancellor, Reanimator has always had some percentage of unbeatable hands. Swamp, Rit, Thoughtseize, Reanimate, Entomb, Force, blue card is just one card worse that Swamp, Rit, Thoughtseize, Reanimate, Entomb, Annex-chan, whatever.

[Megadeus]

it's almost as if you banned brainstorm you could unban deathrite shaman, dig through time, treasure cruise, gitaxian probe and top.

then even possibly unbanning [insert favorite card here]? mine is mana drain.

Whatever. We'll just keep banning things and wondering why the format can't correct itself when the answer has been apparent for years.

[Fox]

@non-inflammable Gitaxian Probe is the card that broke DTT. It would have been better format management to ban the real problem [Probe] long before DTT. We might still have to ban Dig on its own (b/c of Fetchlands by themselves), but really not okay to have what is effectively Lotus Petal drawing a card. Even less okay to let Probe -> Sea -> Therapy crap all over the only compensation mechanism your on-the-draw opponent had (getting a bonus card, after losing 2-3 before they ever got to play. Then losing the rest of their hand to the same Therapy off a Pyromancer, into reliable turn 3 Gurmags). The reign of Grixis Pyromancer (+/- the card Delver) was not healthy.

[Emurian]

I advocate for keeping Top banned. Last week I participated in a tournament and I had this stereotype slowroller that can't resolve a brainstorm within a reasonable time span to save his life.

I on the other hand, have a mirri's guile out and am done sorting my cards <5 seconds every time.

Now, I could have called the judge on said player, more so because it took him over 10 minutes (im not shitting you) when he went SnT > Omniscience > Enter the infinite to come up with a way to win the game (Had resolved humility and leyline of sanctity) but I didn't. Why? Because its rare to participate in a big tournament over here, I recognise a lot of friendly faces. I compete for fun first, winning 2nd, if it was the other way around I wouldn't take Enchantress out for a spin but rather rely on my Delver / lands / reanimator decks.

People like him are a good reminder to me though why we banned top. The only way you will hear me advocate for a unbanning of TOP is if both players are forced to use a time clock when playing in that case to prevent games like where Reid duke was going, draw, pass *make token with lillie emblem* and his Miracle opponent takes over 10 min per turn. (Although legit, the dude was going for a win). I understand the miracle player, I just don't like playing magic with a 80/20 you watch me playing and all I see you do is durdling with the top of your deck (Can take it without probs when I see Elves glimpsing off for example, can't take it when ppl slowroll on their brainstorms like its the first time they play magic ugh)

So yah, keep top banned, good riddance. Wonder if someone ever did a YOLO calculation how much hours TOP has wasted of people their life on average during a tournament back then . . .

[Rascalyote]

I used to want top back but now do we really want Top with cards like Citadel // Mystic Forge etc.

[Mr. Safety]

Announcement today, any guesses? I predict no changes across all formats with a paragraph or two about Oko being on the watchlist.