[Primer/Deck] Burn

[Dowws]

I don't understand the sideboard. Is Alpine Moon good against Depths? I think it's really bad. Why there is a Skewer the Critics in the sideboard?

So let’s address each question individually. “Is alpine moon good against depths?” Your answer is “I think it’s very bad.” I think your answer is semi-correct. I don’t think it’s amazing, but what better option do you have? This allows for t1 swift spear, t2 alpine moon +bolt. Therefore, it keeps tempo pretty well. Blood moon is too slow. And you’re really just trying to buy enough time to burn your opponent out. 2nd question “why there is a skewer the critics in the sideboard?” I think this is for when it’s about tempo, or racing. Let’s say storm, you want as many bolt affects as possible because you’re trying to turn 3 them, so cut he 2 mana spells, for a lean 1 mana 3 dmg spell as possible.

[Eldariel]

OTOH I really understand 4xExquisite in this meta; much of the control-decks rely on countering your last burn spells while finishing you off and 4 Exquisites makes that all but impossible. All in all, this seems like an excellent topdecking list in that almost all the spells bolt the face with no fuss. Light up the Stage has the simple issue that it needs an enabler and forces you to thus play a tad differently - and when you're running 4 three-drops, it becomes much worse with you not being consistently able to cast all your spells. Light up the Stage is also mana that goes into not burninating the opponent. Against Control and Delver-variants as well as Depths, that list seems fine overall though again, yeah, I disagree with 4 MD PoPs. Though they probably did their part for him over the tournament.

Alpine Moon seems fine, to be honest. I don't think Depths are like to keep enchantment removal in vs. you and it's a one-mana way to turn off their combo. Extremely niche but I guess with how much Depths we have running around, you could do worse. Honestly, considering he only lost to ANT in the semis I think his run was more than fair; that MU is nigh' unwinnable vs. good ANT players anyways, certainly with no SB hate. I think his philosophy for building the deck is solid TBH: just build to beat the top decks and pray to dodge or luck out vs. the rest. Burn isn't strong enough to have good MUs across the board but it can be built in a way that makes it good vs. particular decks, especially controlling ones that give it a lot of time to topdeck the final points. His approach to deciding that he beats control, Depths and graveyard decks seems to have paid off quite handsomely.


I can kinda understand the Skewer too; he wants to SB out some number of Exquisites or Prices depending on the match-up but he needs to maintain the critical number of burn spells so an extra burn spell to bring in kinda helps with the consistency. Not how I'd use my SB plan but given his deck is "preboarded" vs. control, it's kinda logical at least.

EDIT: From Jarvis Yu's tournament report, it becomes pretty obvious that Exquisite Firecraft was instrumental against him.

[Eldariel]

Just a heads-up, Gooch trying his hands on the Top 8 Burn-list from GP: Atlanta. I see all the traditional issues with losing to flood and screw but doing really well when you draw the right mix of lands and spells; I can't but feel that some number of utility lands, be they Barbies or Drawlands, would've helped out here.

[alec]

This thread is, not unsurprisingly, kind of dead in the water. But I just got back into Legacy after not routinely playing for ~5 years or so, and Burn is the only full deck that I could make out of my collection after losing a bunch of blue cards recently.

I've been taking this list to a local meta that has blue-based control, Infect Stompy, and the occasional combo deck, and I've been finding success and having fun with it:


4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress

3 Light Up the Stage
2 Skewer the Critics
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

19 Mountain


Sideboard changes from week to week, and is kind of just made of whatever the hell I bring that evening. But it's pretty consistently something like:

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyrostatic Pillar (on most days; if I'm expecting even more graveyard stuff, I'll bring some Tormod's Crypts)
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Alpine Moon (we have one 12-Post player with Glacial Chasm, lol)
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast


This deck takes a more sorcery-speed approach to things what with all the Spectacle costs, yet Spectacle spells and Swiftspears lead to extremely explosive lines of play. Chaining Bolts into Skewers and Light Up the Stages with Swiftspears in play have allowed me to pull off clean turn 3-4 kills.

I'd like to ask, if anyone's listening, how people feel about the correct number of maindeck Sulfuric Vortexes in larger metas. I'm trying to pick up a few to battle the spare Batterskulls and Jittes that sometimes pass through the shop, but I feel like they'd be practically required against Oko if I were to go to a bigger tournament -- and I'd certainly like to do so, given my confidence in piloting Burn builds.

I'm also looking to swap Price of Progress for Flame Rift soon, though the former is stellar in a meta with Cloudposts and Blinkmoths. :)

I won't be attending LGS Legacy this week but hope to keep this thread updated soon. Thanks.

[PirateKing]

You're going to want some number of Exquisite Firecraft in your list.
Too many decks or on parity with Burn's damage output that you'll be 1 spell away only to have it countered and they land the killing blow.
For this reason also I think Flame Rift might be a trap.

Bonecrusher Giant has been something I've been meaning to try out, since you can cast Stomp early and then if you lose steam in the third act you have something to maintain that forward momentum.

[alec]

It's funny: a friend of mine plays Burn in the same meta with four Exquisite Firecrafts and has not seen the results I've had without them. They feel really clunky.

That being said, I haven't tried them yet. I'd probably take out the Spectacle cards for them and add a Mountain, unless four is too many? I'd like other's opinions on numbers.

EDIT: On Bonecrusher: I definitely like him in other formats (I have regrettably been [s]having fun playing[/s] pulled into Pioneer and a few Standard matches recently). I feel like two mana for two damage is simply a little much for Legacy, but he at least has an Eidolon effect when bolted. I wouldn't play four - nor would I play him in my meta - but he's strong.

[Mr. Safety]

It's funny: a friend of mine plays Burn in the same meta with four Exquisite Firecrafts and has not seen the results I've had without them. They feel really clunky.

That being said, I haven't tried them yet. I'd probably take out the Spectacle cards for them and add a Mountain, unless four is too many? I'd like other's opinions on numbers.

EDIT: On Bonecrusher: I definitely like him in other formats (I have regrettably been [s]having fun playing[/s] pulled into Pioneer and a few Standard matches recently). I feel like two mana for two damage is simply a little much for Legacy, but he at least has an Eidolon effect when bolted. I wouldn't play four - nor would I play him in my meta - but he's strong.

Damage not being prevented means you can attack into a TNN and deal with it. I don't know if that pushes it into playability, but its an interaction that will be fairly common. Sulfuric Vortex is a massive beating against a lot of decks right now as well.

[mulletsss]

I've played this past weekend with my burn deck on my LGS Tournament with 60+ players.
I had the "pleasure" of playing against 3 Snowko, BANT Miracles, whatever you wanna call it.

Oko is there, exists, and I don't want to discuss whether it is going to be banned or not.
But the combination of Oko, Teferi and Jace plus FoWs, FoN, Flusterstorm, Dovin's Veto and even Counterspell makes the matches so f**ing boring.
My main deck had 2 Exquisite Firecraft and 1 Sulfuric Vortex, and on the SB one copy of those two and extra 2 REB's. But I've felt that I should have gone with 4 Exquisite MB and maybe Red Leylines, Skullcrack and Bonecrusher Giant on the SB, because the meta was abusing of life gaining and counterspells and I'm tired of letting my opponent down to 3 life just to see him/her ramping up life again and slowly loosing to him.

I've played 5 rounds and made a ridiculous 0-1-4.
The match that ended up as a draw was against a Snowko and we reached the time limit and extra 5 turns.

At the end, I had fun because even though I lost almost every round, I did 1-2 in all of those matches, so I kinda lost gracefully.
But yeah, burn is burn. It has seen better days and I hope those come back soon. (and I seriously hope that lists that run white DO NOT start to appear with Kor Firewalker and Leyline of Sanctity)

[alec]

Oko is there, exists, and I don't want to discuss whether it is going to be banned or not.
But the combination of Oko, Teferi and Jace plus FoWs, FoN, Flusterstorm, Dovin's Veto and even Counterspell makes the matches so f**ing boring.

I've played 5 rounds and made a ridiculous 0-1-4.
The match that ended up as a draw was against a Snowko and we reached the time limit and extra 5 turns.

At the end, I had fun because even though I lost almost every round, I did 1-2 in all of those matches, so I kinda lost gracefully.
But yeah, burn is burn. It has seen better days and I hope those come back soon. (and I seriously hope that lists that run white DO NOT start to appear with Kor Firewalker and Leyline of Sanctity)

I really feel you on this. Each match plays exactly the same more or less. When I pilot burn I'm always looking to aggressive mulligan into the most threat-diverse hands I can manage (two Swiftspears and 3 burn spells? Sure. A single Goblin Guide? Ehhhh...), depending on what flavor they're running. But Oko piles have a really flavor-light base, that's for sure ...

My partner in fiery crime put two Skullcrack in their sideboard for Oko and it seems to be doing some work. I'll probably borrow some myself. I never leave for the weekly without four Blasts to be honest, though, and I'm a little tight for slots given that graveyard decks are picking up steam here.

Anyway, time to get some Anarchy in there!

[mistercakes]

I really feel you on this. Each match plays exactly the same more or less. When I pilot burn I'm always looking to aggressive mulligan into the most threat-diverse hands I can manage (two Swiftspears and 3 burn spells? Sure. A single Goblin Guide? Ehhhh...), depending on what flavor they're running. But Oko piles have a really flavor-light base, that's for sure ...

My partner in fiery crime put two Skullcrack in their sideboard for Oko and it seems to be doing some work. I'll probably borrow some myself. I never leave for the weekly without four Blasts to be honest, though, and I'm a little tight for slots given that graveyard decks are picking up steam here.

Anyway, time to get some Anarchy in there!

fun list popped up:


4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
1 Barbarian Ring
6 Mountain
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Lava Spike
4 Ponder
3 Price of Progress
3 Rift Bolt
2 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Fireblast
1 The Royal Scions

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Vapor Snag
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Alpine Moon
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Tormod's Crypt


snapcaster is a great reach effect and i really like royal scions. can filter bad draws, pump attackers and random ultimate. access to a blue board is also really cool. 4 ponder is also interesting. with fetches i think it really helps a lot more than brainstorm in this deck. i like the approach.

[mulletsss]

My partner in fiery crime put two Skullcrack in their sideboard for Oko and it seems to be doing some work. I'll probably borrow some myself. I never leave for the weekly without four Blasts to be honest, though, and I'm a little tight for slots given that graveyard decks are picking up steam here.

Anyway, time to get some Anarchy in there!

It's funny that I already have 4 Anarchys, that I bought when I got completely locked after playing against a white Leyline. But again, with this BUG lists, it's sure that it's going to get countered
Maybe the new SB must be: 3 Smash to Smithereens , 3 Red Leyline , 3 Skullcrack , 1 Rampaging Ferocidon , 1 Vortex , 2 REBs and 2 Graveyard hate.

snapcaster is a great reach effect and i really like royal scions. can filter bad draws, pump attackers and random ultimate. access to a blue board is also really cool. 4 ponder is also interesting. with fetches i think it really helps a lot more than brainstorm in this deck. i like the approach.

Burn is by nature monored and full of spells that mimic at the best way they can Lightning Bolt.
But I'll ignore that and assume that you're proposing a more consistent list by adding blue. BUT if you are adding blue, with a bunch of sorcery and instants, there's no sense of not adding Delver of Secrets. UR Delver decklists are better than this one and you can even throw in the Planeswalker (that is indeed really great). Also, it's not very smart to have nonbasic lands and PoP on the same deck, even though we are playing burn and we don't care that much about our life total, it's just not that good to rebound that damage back to you.
I don't want to extend myself with this reply, since this is a burn primer (a deck that "fights" against blue), but I couldn't miss to answer this.

[jafar]

Instead of blue, why just not adding:


light up the stage
skewer the critics


Bye

[H]

I actually played against Burn last week at FNM. Skewer sure seemed awkward for him, but LUtS seemed pretty good.

I'd think you want to be weary of too many Spectacle cards in general and so it might be the case that LUtS is just the better one to go with.

Obvious testing needed, obviously.

[alec]

I actually played against Burn last week at FNM. Skewer sure seemed awkward for him, but LUtS seemed pretty good.

I'd think you want to be weary of too many Spectacle cards in general and so it might be the case that LUtS is just the better one to go with.

Obvious testing needed, obviously.

I've shared my weekly Legacy Burn list a few posts back that uses 3 Light Up the Stage and 2 Skewer the Critics.

Skewer the Critics is probably the weakest/most awkward spell in the entire deck and I'll likely remove them for some mainboard Sulfuric Vortexes or Exquisite Firecrafts.

That being said, Light Up the Stage is phenomenal. It's basically a must-counter that can easily play around Daze after a successful combat -- and because the cards are playable until next turn, you can set up huge LUtS stacks for extra Prowess triggers the next turn, which often gets around Spell Pierce and other soft counters (because you'll have more mana available next turn instead of running out the turn of). Also, you can play the lands you exile off of it because the card says "play," not "cast." It requires quite a bit of paradigm shifting to maximize Spectacle triggers, but overall, Light Up the Stage is really, really good.

[bruizar]

I've played this past weekend with my burn deck on my LGS Tournament with 60+ players.
I had the "pleasure" of playing against 3 Snowko, BANT Miracles, whatever you wanna call it.

Oko is there, exists, and I don't want to discuss whether it is going to be banned or not.
But the combination of Oko, Teferi and Jace plus FoWs, FoN, Flusterstorm, Dovin's Veto and even Counterspell makes the matches so f**ing boring.
My main deck had 2 Exquisite Firecraft and 1 Sulfuric Vortex, and on the SB one copy of those two and extra 2 REB's. But I've felt that I should have gone with 4 Exquisite MB and maybe Red Leylines, Skullcrack and Bonecrusher Giant on the SB, because the meta was abusing of life gaining and counterspells and I'm tired of letting my opponent down to 3 life just to see him/her ramping up life again and slowly loosing to him.

I've played 5 rounds and made a ridiculous 0-1-4.
The match that ended up as a draw was against a Snowko and we reached the time limit and extra 5 turns.

At the end, I had fun because even though I lost almost every round, I did 1-2 in all of those matches, so I kinda lost gracefully.
But yeah, burn is burn. It has seen better days and I hope those come back soon. (and I seriously hope that lists that run white DO NOT start to appear with Kor Firewalker and Leyline of Sanctity)

If you want to beat Oko,you need non-artifact, non-creature solutions. The most resilient answer is Karn the Great Creator, but that's also tough mana wise for a deck like burn. Your best bet is a cheap enchantment, or a black splash for discard effects and hope to dodge veil of summer. Of course, this is only incase REBs and/or Pithing Needle arent enough.

[alec]

If you want to beat Oko,you need non-artifact, non-creature solutions.

Thankfully, Burn has a lot of those. The rest of those mentioned solutions aren't that great in Burn because they deviate from the actual plan, and they already have a cheap enchantment that handles Oko in the form of Sulfuric Vortex (it shuts off life gain from food and generates passive pressure that will eventually end them after a few more burn spells).

B/R mid-range builds are pretty cool by themselves, though. Hymn to Tourach is a surprisingly good card.

[mulletsss]

If you want to beat Oko,you need non-artifact, non-creature solutions. The most resilient answer is Karn the Great Creator, but that's also tough mana wise for a deck like burn. Your best bet is a cheap enchantment, or a black splash for discard effects and hope to dodge veil of summer. Of course, this is only incase REBs and/or Pithing Needle arent enough.

Just like alec said above, it's good, but it deviates a little bit off the plan.
The thing is: burn is like a combo/glass canon deck. You go all-in, as fast as you can using the most of your resources. What doesn't happen when you deviate that much
Oko + Teferi on the field things get ugly. Because Vortex can deal with the Oko bullshit, but Teferi can bounce Vortex back to your hand (and your opponent draws a card) so they you do the necessary to counter it back.

I am just spreading my hate against those planeswalkers, but it seems that burn will need some new cards to be able to handle this nonsense (I am not even going to mention Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath). Light Up the Stage is a terrific tool, like said above, but by itself is not a huge threat to the opponents.

Anyways, as another subject, remembered this list yesterday, decided to share here:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/winte...ce-and-fire-1/

[mistercakes]

Instead of blue, why just not adding:


light up the stage
skewer the critics


Bye

Cya

[Seymour_Asses]

Why is everyone leaving, it's only midnight!

[alec]

Why is everyone leaving, it's only midnight!

Hitting the hay early: I've got a stage to light up tomorrow.

...Actually, I'll be missing my weekly Legacy night in favor of a family dinner. A shame 'cause my friend is playing Death's Shadow tomorrow ... that round would have been a bye. :(

In other news, I've been playing two maindeck Sulfuric Vortex and Exquisite Firecraft again, just like Oko intended. I haven't played Vortex since like 2010 ... it's so good. Still rocking four maindeck Price of Progress though because 12-Post deserves the respective kick in the dick.

Have we thought about updating the primer at all by the way? I feel like it could use an update and I'd gladly volunteer to do it (or simply give my two cents to anyone with more authority/experience).