[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[crispymelee]

No idea how accurate a predictor of the paper meta online events are, but given recent trends, are we in a position to effectively combat Companions?

If you guys have experience playing online (I'm pretty much exclusively paper), how have you done running the Noughts? Any old or new pieces of tech that we should look to pick up?

[Fox]

Nothing too much has changed, every Fox deck is trying to combo into auto-loss to what UW Nought already does. Most Lurrus decks just say “I can’t play Oko, Uro, or TNN, and this is my only value spell...so when you kill it I kinda die on the spot.” The Kraken deck is a meme that can’t beat combo-control. Yorion decks were nice enough to spike their decks full of variance so that they could exile multiple value permanents and try to return them to play off a single trigger (if only there were some card that could punish this)...after sorc-speed tapping out of 5 mana; so I’m not taking that one seriously.

The Lurrus stuff is the only one really worth taking seriously, but they’re also glacially slow when it comes to casting him (lost land drops on Daze and Wasteland activations), usually needing somewhere around 6 turns. The recent morose fascination with Counterbalance spamming will be annoying and tedious for however long that lasts; but on the bright side they’re down about 5 PWs and 2 Mentors which you no longer have to fight over. They’ve dropped to ~3 not-CB relevant cards: 2xEntreat (exile these with FoN if possible, b/c Sanctuary) and 1x Lurrus (which isn’t a problem if they don’t have a CB to recur). The CB-Lurrus stuff should die off soon enough, and you’ll be left with some of the slowest Delver decks legacy has ever had (Stifle should excel at shredding their hand).

In terms of new cards, Sevinne’s is probably fine as a 1x in UW. If you want to try another card in either UW or UR, a Shark’nado is probably fine. The cycle-turtle has some issues. Speaking just of UR, I doubt Lurrus is going to give you any trouble at all, but Oko/Uro/Coatl is going to be annoying b/c of lifegain. You will want to think about sideboard plans vs GY and artifacts. As it stands you’d be waiting on a card that doesn’t exist yet: instant deal 3 to any target, if it would die exile instead* or even Incendiary Flow were it to exist at instant speed. Blitz of the Thunder-Raptor has obvious problems when it comes to attacking life totals. Instant speed is needed to exile Uro (particularly on first cast), the exile still happens when sac trigger kills him. Getting to 3 dmg is a currently required b/c of Dreadhorde. The inability of red to cleanly interfere with the recursion looping going on right now is a bit rough, so you probably need to get creative.

*I would expect a card like this to have to say deal 3 to creature or deal 2 to player/PW; otherwise it’s just strictly better Bolt.

[Rood]

Shark Typhoon is actually gross..Being able to cycle under a Standstill and trade with a Delver is pretty nuts. I cant see ur not wanting at least 3-4 copies in a deck like this. Unfortunately...cannot be run unless we cut either Dreadnought or Delver. This is what a non Dreadnought list would look like.

4x Standstill
4x FOW
4x Daze
4x Spell Snare
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Delver
4x Shark Typhoon
4x TNN
4x Lightning Bolt

4x Scalding Tarn
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
2x Volcanic Island
3x Polluted Delta
4x Island
1x Mountain

What do you guys think?

[Fox]

Once you start cutting Dreadnoughts you start losing to combo, and loss of Stifle undercuts Daze. If you cut Delvers you collapse the usefulness of Daze and Bolt (which means you’re now on UW). Ramp up Sharks and you’re no longer playing Delver (too many enchants and lands), so again the move is to UW. The loss of reach [12/12] and all the maindeck lifegain [opponent] will cripple your list; also Stifle isn’t a card you want to be dropping while Veil and Yorion are being played.

Once you’re on UW, Teferi up to 3x. No need to spam Sharks since you can find them with E-Tutor (turn 1 tutor Shark, turn 2 untap Standstill), and E-Tutor gives you more keepable hands (cycle it for the 1x Astrolabe). Problems with straight UW-Standstill are:
1) loses to burn spells (Plow Dreadnought fixes)
2) has to play Terminus and Portent (loss of slots vs Verdict)
3) loses to Oko (easier to fight with Scroll of Fate; splashing for 3x REB does not work well)

Dreadstill moves to...
Set pieces (29):
Plow x4
Stifle x4 (needed to play Verdict, better vs Delver than Terminus)
FoW x4
Brainstorm x4
Teferi x3
Karn x2
Verdict x2
FoN x2
Search for Azcanta x1
Astrolabe x1
Scroll of Fate x1
Sevinne’s x1 (replaces Noxious; not as interactive, but it’s fine)

Mana (20):
Strand x4
Vista x3
Snow-Island x3
Snow-Plains x2
Tundra x1
Karakas x1
Wasteland x3
Factory x3

Unset slots (last 11):
Dreadnought 3-4x
E Tutor 1-2x
Sharks 1-2x
JVP 0-1x
Standstill 2-3x
Snare 1-2x (doesn’t hit Oko or SnT)

About the only sideways (slot-neutral) move is cutting Factory altogether for Vista #4 an Island, and something else. I don’t think this is progress though, since it’s a big part of how you control Oko (they can’t [+1] on your things b/c 3/3 + 2/2 Factory = dead Oko). It also comes up quite frequently vs Oko decks that they [+1] on Scroll, respond with face-down 12/12, and 1-shot them for 17 with Elk-Scroll/Factory/Nought.

[KobeBryan]

Wait...so dreadstill no longer runs dreadnought?

[Fox]

Wait...so dreadstill no longer runs dreadnought?

UR Landstill, UR cards I own, and UR Moon are still not competitive. They also fell even further behind the curve with the printing of Uro and Oko (too much maindeck lifegain). Picking up lands with Daze while relying on Sharks still has some significant timing problems by itself, while also reinforcing the too slow vs combo that plagues those decks. UR still lacks the reset buttons (wrath and obnoxious white effects), and ramping up the speed with a 12/12 is still the best compensatory mechanism. The banning of Wrenn did not help Spell Snare’s position in the meta either; the main problem for the deck (Oko) is only really casting Strix/Ice-Fang on 2, and the occasional Library; they also have no problem waiting to play around Daze.

[Fox]

Okay so the new cards for Dreadnought:
-Discontinuity: exiles spells cast on our turn (includes Decay), exiles Nought trigger, 1 fewer card to discard if opponent breaks Standstill on EoT (also they lose their spell); achievement mode nukes opponent’s turn. True worth somewhere around $3. Worth experimenting up to 1-2 slots where Trickbind would have been. Don’t like the ~$7 pricetag, but it’s unlikely you’d ever need more than 2x.
-See the Truth: showing current price around $3, worth a playset at least (says draw 3, and modern overuses Snapcaster heavily). Lots of potential on this card, perhaps good enough to build around.
-Thieve’s Guild Enforcer: turns on Drown in the Loch in UB if you’re trying to build around heavier interaction. Price is correct at $1.50.
-Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose: overpriced at ~$4, worth about $1; but you only need 1x with some Entomb and Sevinne’s/Reanimate/JVP. Diamond Valley was put on Arguel’s Blood Fast, so this is a pretty easy one to figure out. Provides meaningful goldfish use of Plow (gain 12, drain 12; turns Plow into a pseudo-Stifle). Other cards of interest are Grisel, Death’s Shadow, and Orzhov Charm. This card costing only 2B [Sevinne’s sees it] and having that passive is all that matters, ignore the activated ability.
-Fungal Rebirth: nice regrowth effect, instant speed, makes dudes. UG builds still lack removal, but this would be a pretty easy include if they were viable. Pretty stupid with Uro.

For Karn SB:
-Sparkhunter Masticore: currently around $2.50; only need 1x but reasonable price to complete a playset. Also reasonable in a madness shell, discussed below.
-Mazemind Tome: correcly priced at ~75 cents, decent wish target if you think Karn will die on arrival.
-Isochron Scepter + See the Truth: worth consideration.

Almost cards:
-Sanctum of Stone Fangs: worthless money-wise, and poor to build around (legendary). Not an unreasonable SB card vs control (about as close to Klothys as you can get with UB base); reasonable interactions with and against Bitterblossom...or as budget Bitterblossom.
-Silversmote Ghoul: also worthless money-wise, but a pretty effortless value engine with Cling to Dust. No real synergy with Dreadnought at this time, but the groundwork for madness/discard is laid with Collective Brutality, Rootwalla, Asylum Visitor, and Cling/Ghoul.
-Sporeweb Weaver: combo with Desert, but not good enough even though Desert would be great with Standstill.

SB options:
Run Afoul 1 mana Flyabolic Edict.

[crispymelee]

Thanks Fox for the highlights on upcoming cards in the new sets. Run Afoul in particular got me thinking about the rise of Worldgorger Dragon combo, since that card came up in a group for its development I joined, while my Noughts are off to get signed by Mr. Venters.

If you haven't encountered it online or exclusively play paper, the WGD lists use the interaction between WGD and Animate Dead, to recur draw-effects (Ice-Fang Coatl/Arcum's Astrolabe) and generate "inifinite" mana, finishing with Fae of Wishes -> Torment of Hailfire for the kill. Assuming you're in UW, we're uniquely positioned to fight them on multiple axes between our regular suite of permission, Stifle, StP, and small Tef. The real trick is attacking them at the right time: either exile WGD with it's "exile all other permanents" trigger on the stack, or Stifle the "return all permanents" trigger when WGD is sacrificed. In both scenarios, your opponent's permanents are exiled permanently. You could also exile the WGD from the yard after it gets sacrificed which will break the loop, but will allow their permanents to return.

G2 and 3, it gets interesting as most lists run a SB that lets them transition to a (weaker) traditional BUG midrange list abusing Oko and Uro, sometimes eschewing the combo completely. If you're in UW, you have your traditional GY-hate plan of E.Tutor/RiP/Tormod's/etc.

Anyways, it seems to be putting up enough results and gaining enough steam that I think there will be a decent chance of it showing up as a "rogue" list once paper events are live again. Stay safe everyone!

EDIT: I originally said Strix was one of their draw effects; more common is Ice-Fang Coatl

[FistaCuffSmith]

Just wanted to jump in and say “hi.” I’m new to the deck and I’m trying to learn as much as I can. I have a U/R version put together on MTGO (thanks Fox and Crispy for your help today).

[Mr. Safety]

-Isochron Scepter + See the Truth: worth consideration.

FYI, this doesn't work, instants only for Scepter imprints.

In order for See the Truth to be viable as a draw engine it needs to have more value than the Standstill sub-game. The deck-building restrictions are also fairly significant. At a minimum you need 3-4x Snapcaster Mage and enough ways to reliably hit 4 lands on turn 4. It won't necessarily be played on-curve, but you will need to hit 3-4 lands by turn 4 to do the first half and still have enough mana to do something else (necessary due to it's poor effect on the front side.) The other option is Mission Briefing, which has seen some fringe play. The upside of Briefing is that you can play alternative costs from the graveyard (Force of Will/Negation and Daze.) The UU cost, in a deck with 7-8 colorless lands, will be tricky outside of mono-blue. Wasteland is seeing less play due to Astrolabe, but Snapcaster Mage does it easier and provides a body, just no alternative costs.

[Fox]

Nice catch on the Isochron. There are probably a few artifacts that do the trick which you just wish for with Karn. Most that I can think of are around 4-5 mana to do the thing: Uba Mask, Bosium Strip.

Another reliable mechanic (i.e. not cascade) would be giving it rebound with the UW Narset from a few sets back or Outpost Siege-type cards (Vance's Blasting Cannons, Chandra ToD). Snapcaster is the easiest way though, and having to play it isn't really a downside.

[Tobitzki]

@FistaCuffSmith Welcome to the Dreadtribe & welcome to Legacy. I highly recommend a deep dive into this thread; it's such a rich well of knowledge.
@Fox: Didn't you do a kind of round-up of the first few hundred pages a couple of years back? That'd be pretty useful to somehow bookmark on the primer page.

on See the Truth: If we found a way to loot it in the bin, I like JVP over SCM or Mission Briefing here, because of the hefty mana cost Mr. Safety mentions. I probably won't go as far as suggesting Faithless Looting per se, but in a more control-orienteed shell, cards to consider would be Dack, The Royal Scions and the new Teferi (who btw broke my heart for not enabling Dreadnought with his phasing ability); maybe Tragic Lesson too.

Meanwhile, I've dusted off good old UB Stiflenought to try out the new Whale:

14
4 Delver
3 Ethereal Forager | Dreadnought
2 Bob | Brazen Bouncer

28
4 BS | Ponder | Daze | Force | Stifle
3 Thoughtseize
2 Push
1 Drown | Pierce | Misdirection

18
4 WL | Delta | Strand
3 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea

SB:
3 TNN
1 Back to Basics
1 Winter Orb
1 Force of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Snare
1 Plague Engineer
1 Mind Harness
1 EE
1 Null Rod
1 Cage
1 Surgical
1 Cling

Option of turning into a more conventional Delver deck post-board with TNNs blanking boarded-in spot removal. There's an argument for shaving the 3rd Whale for a Preordain, not sure.

I actually had another version with the full playset of 12/12s, alongside Reality Shift, which seems pretty neat against Uro rn.

There's some flexibility in the sideboard (especially # of W Orb and B2B), as I'm not sure about the current/near-future paper meta. It's very possible that we'll start running up the Plague Engineer count to combat the incoming hordes of Goblin Snoops and uncounterable Elves soon enough.

[Fox]

Given that we generally don’t play Ponder, we should be casting See the Truth. If the card is only good with some backdoor flashback/Yawg Will wording from yard, it wouldn’t be considered. Cast it and assemble the plan to draw 3 off the cantrip side.

I’ll dig up the post sometime and see if Rood is around to post it to pg.1

[FistaCuffSmith]

Got my first victory today against some sort of 4-color control list. Had like Hymm, snapcaster and K-Command. Pretty stoked.

[KobeBryan]

We need a new primer.

There's so many new cards that need to be settled on. Sharknado, scroll, whale.

[FistaCuffSmith]

For reference here is my list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Scroll of Fate
2 Shark Typhoon
5 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Standstill
1 Steam Vents
4 Stifle
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Wasteland

1 Abrade
2 Brazen Borrower
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Magmatic Sinkhole
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shenanigans
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction

[FistaCuffSmith]

We need a new primer.

There's so many new cards that need to be settled on. Sharknado, scroll, whale.

I would love to have an idea how to sideboard from you all that have played this more and know the format better than I.

[Fox]

@Tobitzki the best answer to Uro in UB is Cling to Dust; you probably need to be thinking of 2x in the main or 1x with a small 1-2x Entomb package (Darkblast + something else). Cut at least 3x Strand for Vista if you have them. Your list has almost no game against Chalice (Ponder stole slots), and should be looking at Scroll and/or Karn. If nothing changes maindeck, 2-3 SB slots need to be Teferi’s Realm or have proliferate. I’d also suggest cards that kill Oko in SB before Snare/Fluster/FoN (cut Pierce, play FoN main).

@KobeBryan we’ve gotten playables with pretty much every set for a few years now. A few copies of Sharknado and Scroll of Fate doesn’t really change how UR Dreadstill is built. The main thing is that we’re at a point where Delver is moving towards support from only 20-22 cards that can flip it. It’s only going to take a few more cards to say Delvers (and Daze, since picking up Islands is not great with Shark’nado) are out, and we’re doing something entirely new with UR. One of the things we’d need is a reliable wrath and an early damage source to augment the Bolt to the face backup mode (since power creep diminishes its viability as a kill spell as time goes on). UR is still in the count-to-20 holding pattern, waiting for enough help to morph into the kind of stuff my UW list does. On the flip side, my UW list is waiting for printing a playable that turns Plow own Dreadnought into quad-Bolt (Vito was close), to play a game more similar to current UR.

The new printings don’t really matter all that much outside of Teferi, which made UW’s unified gameplan distinctly different from UR. Scroll is just a hilariously upgraded enabler, and 1-2x Sharks in the mix lets you cast Standstills at resolved enemy Delvers. You still need to hide ~3x wincons in the manabase, and no land-based threat has allowed us to look at dropping to 2x (moving away from Factory). UB has Creeping Tarpit to go to 2x, but they should be playing no-Dreadnought Standstill (bigger priority for them is to get white for Teferi and Sevinne’s). Thing in the Ice = Cryptic Serpent = Pteramander = Vantress = Whale; same thing, creatures that need too much work, die to REB, and turn into Elk before you get anything out of them. Of all of them TITI still has the most synergy with Scroll. UB isn’t really competitive right now, but they keep printing must-plays (Scroll, FoN) at 3cmc, making Confidant more suspect. This is the hole they’re trying to plug with Whale, and it doesn’t look promising (not castable on turn 2). Mono-U is not worth playing since Vista came out, but they also dabble in Whales.

I’ll try and get in contact with @Rood to update some of the matchups, but both lists are pretty current. The issue is that, especially for UR, there is no one right way to attack the meta (very few best cards for the job in UR). I think the best we can do is put up loose rules for what can be boarded out, and the concept of cards being sided in [ex. yard hate, pseudo-wrath, etc].
—
I have a small Standstill Discord set up, which is probably the best way to get targeted advice on boarding [since we can see the specific list and SB choices]. PM me Discord name and I can send an invite.

[Fox]

@Semiotician, and myself on the call, went 4-1 in a quick league using UR. Matchups were Eldrazi (1-2), Jund Gaak (2-0), Humans (2-0), B/R Reanimator (2-0), BUG Gaak (2-1). Very close to beating Eldrazi, but they won the die roll and had an ESG for the Daze on turn 2 TKS in game 1.

BS x4
FoW x4
Daze x4
Bolt x4
Stifle x4

Standstill x4
Scroll of Fate x3
Shark’nado x2

Delver x3 (only 20 cards to flip it, experimenting with 3x)
Nought x3
Grim Lavamancer x2
TNN x2

Tarn x4
Vista x4
Island x4
Volc x2
Mountain x1
Wasteland x3
Factory x3

SB:
Surgical x2
Ashiok x2
Abrade x2
Chandra, ToD x2
Pyroblast x2
REB x1
EE x1
Staticaster x1
Brazen x1
uncounterable Chandra x1

SB’ing looked something like...
-vs Eldrazi: +2 Abrade, +1 EE, +1 Brazen. -2 Daze, -2 Standstill. Option to cut all Daze, bring in 2x Chandra.
-vs Reanimator: +2 Surgical, +2 Ashiok, +1 Brazen. -1 Standstill, -2 Bolt, -2 TNN.
-vs Jund Gaak: +2 Surgical, +2 Ashiok, +1 Staticaster. -2 Daze, -2 Standstill, -1 FoW. This build loses harder to disruption at cost lost land drops.
-vs BUG Gaak: +2 Surgical, +2 Ashiok, +1 Staticaster, +1 EE. -4 Daze, -2 Standstill. This build loses harder to us getting 3x mana.
-vs Humans: +1 Staticaster, +2 Abrade, +1 EE. -2 Standstill, -2 Daze. Option to bring in 2x Chandra and further 2x cuts to Daze.

Holding pattern on Daze until Delver can be replaced. Holding pattern of Factory until a playable 2x manland/token-generating land replacement comes along. Daze + Shark’nado and Scroll are often divergent strategies. Shark’nado cycling for x=0 is exceptionally good at massacring Gaak’s Bridge plan (which makes Altar an increasingly meaningless topdeck/card in hand). There are different ways to optimize and on-the-draw vs on-the-play postboard Daze cutting, depending on what your SBing goals are.

[Mr. Safety]

Delver x3 (only 20 cards to flip it, experimenting with 3x)

I've always had a hard time flipping Delver in Dreadstill. I'm toying with the idea of playing a full set of Brazen Borrower in UB Shadow over Delvers, just to see if the value/utility can lead to a better mid-game. In a deck like UR Dreadstill Delver (if it reliably flips) is super important because of the aggressive nature of the deck. However, if you're looking to go deeper into Standstill/value-based lines Borrower seems like a good fit.