I don't want to get this site (or any others) in trouble, so I thought I'd ask before I bring up any discussion:
Are we allowed to discuss rumored/spoiled cards on this site? How about provide links to sites with spoiler info?
Go ahead.Originally Posted by Solpugid
http://www.magiccorporation.com/gath...-planaire.html
The first card on that page is a functional reprint of funeral charm, but in blue. That is, it can give a creature +2/-1, islandwalk, or force a discard at instant speed.
Now some of you may know that I've been looking for a second 1cc removal spell for this deck that would not be dead against solidarity (thus condemn is out). When I saw this card, I got pretty excited. It kills lackey and confidant, allows one of our creatures to hit for an extra 2, gives an enforcer or bear islandwalk in the mirror to plow through a clogged board, or forces a discard if you have nothing better to do with the card (in other words, it has some use against combo). This, plus it can be pitched to force of will. Is it worth it? I know I'll be testing it.
The other rumor going around that has me excited, for the same reason, is that of a white shock. W: 2 damage to target creature or player, instant speed. I personally would run this in a second as my second removal spell, but as of yet it's still a rumor.
So, do any of you think either of those cards will find a home here?
I admit, it's pretty cool, but it's going to be pretty dead in certain cases, such which is the reason why we run only 4 Copies of Swords to Plowshares, which functions differently from Burn, but the Discard effect of that Charm sounds uber sexy in this deck, and it can snab something on Draw step as well.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Has anyone done any testing for the mirror with Loaming Shaman or Jotun Grunt? I know that Mad Zur used both in his sideboard for the D4D, but I don't think that he has tested the mirror post-board with either of these two creatures. Jotun Grunt seems better early at preventing Threshold and Loaming Shaman looks better later when you can crypt your opponent after Threshold, but what strategy should you adopt or which one should you run or are both optimal?
From my own experience, I have found that 3 Shaman in the board has been enough for the mirror unless your opponent is running them as well.
A sucessfully cast Shaman not only makes him larger than all of your opponent's creatures, he makes it impossible for them to maintain a Grunt in play, if that is their SB card. You lose one or two points in the damage race to gains inevitability. More often than not, the mirror does come down to a race.
The casting cost is not a real factor, as Grunt cannot be maintained early, and you don't want to play Shaman early.
The larger body on Grunt does not even come close to making up for the fact that he will die on his own. His effect is semi-balanced. That is, disregarding Shaman, your opponent will often eat his own graveyard to gain a percieved damage advantage with Grunt. If he is removed afterwards, you have just gained a huge Tempo advantage. Shaman has no such qualifier on his ability.
An odd circumstantial advantage of Shaman is his color cost. It rarely comes up, but White is the least available color to Threshold. Being able to cast Shaman, while maintaining a W open for Swords is another small advantage over Grunt when in a damage race.
This is all strictly based on the mirror. Grunt may be far superior against other decks.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Personally, I love the Shamans right now if they're being ran alongside with the Grunts. The fact that these creatures being non-reliant on the graveyard has made them into strong creatures to side in the mirror. Because I run both Shaman and Grunt, I dont seem to care if they play Tormod's Crypt on me 4 times, because I have Shaman and Grunt. I end up ignoring what my opponents are doing usually. If it's a fight over the graveyard, I guess I won since I'm not reliant on it.
I also side them in against Hanni Fish because I need additional creatures. I have learned that if you can deal some damage with some Grunts and Shamans before you have Threshold, you can easily win against Fish in the midgame. However, this match-up is still quite stale.
Personally, I would keep the 3/2/1 configuration. I know the Hatfield's havent tested those 5 Grave hosers much, but they serve different functions in many match-ups. Call me crazy, but I also side in Grunts and Shamans against decks like Red Death, Faerie Stompy, and Affinity. I know you would call me crazy, but I need creatures for board control, and making sure I have the most dominant creatures in the red zone.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Venarian Glimmer XU
Instant
Target player reveals his hand. Choose a nonland card with converted manacost X or less. That player discards this card.
Just wanted to bring this card up here since its a cheap instant that pitches to FoW and can do stuff like nab Jotun Grunts or get nab Tormod's for just U. Seeing your opponent hand is tech when you play Meddling Mage. It also seems hot for the mirror match so you can have Goose superiority.
Now playing real formats.
How can you call that cheap? It costs 2-4 mana to get rid of even the cheapest spells, and it will always cost more mana than the card it trades with (not that the opponent had to actually play that spell in the first place). It also has a tremendous potential to completely whiff.
This card is considerably worse than Counterspell in all but the most specialized situations, and we aren't maxed out on those yet. No thanks.
I need to ask for help from the grow playing community. I give up, I can't find a way to beat goblins post board. here is why:
background
Goblin deck specifics:
3x SGC, 1x Ib, 1x Tinkerer, mono red, 23 lands (4 waste 4 port, no fetches)
Grow list:
4x Bear
4x Goose
2x Enforcer
4x Predict
4x Portent
4x Serum Visions
4x Brainstorm
3x Counterspell
3x Daze
4x FoW
4x Swords
3x Needle
4x Tundra
3x Trop
3x heath
2x Delta
2x Strand
1x Forest
2x Island
All games were post board. We tried multiple boarding strategies for grow but boarded the same way with goblins for the two ten game sets we played over the weekend.
Goblins:
-4 Fanatic
-3 Gempalm
+4 Chalice
+3 Crypt
Grow:
The first five games were played with only a 6 card boarding strategy. Taking out 2 enforcer, 1 counterspell, 1 Serum Visions, 2 Portent. Bringing in 3 Stifle and 3 BEB.
4-1 in Goblins favor
We then switched the three Needles for three Naturalize in an attempt to answer both Chalice and Aether Vial at the same time.
4-1 in Goblins favor (however the games were much closer)
Then on Sunday (after that interception touchdown for the colts) we did another ten game set using this sideboard:
2x Naturalize
2x EE
1x Enforcer
2x Nantuko Monestary
3x Stifle
3x BEB
2x Meddling Mage
+ 3 Stifle, 3 BEB, 2 EE, 1 Naturalize
- 2 Enforcer, 1 Counterspell, 3 Needle, 2 Predict, 1 Serum Visions
The resulting record was 8-2 in Goblins favor. And I don't know what to do about it. What seems to happen is you never have the right answer at the right time. For instance, you can answer the SGC tokens by Stifle but you cant stop his ability, you can kill Chalice but you can never find another answer to the Vial played right after. You draw Counters when all you need is a couple of draw spells and a threat. One for one with Goblins will not win you the game. And I only remember two games where Tividar's Crusade would have been castable if I had it.
So...
I need some help. Right now I can't think of anything that can turn this around, and after this last weekend I am too defeated to try the more risky options such as Worship, Crusade, Dueling Grounds, etc.
And plz don't just throw ideas out there. I need numbers, match results, hard core testing with ten game sets and alternating. If anyone has already found an efficient way to anwer this Goblin SB I am all ears.
(And thanks to Anwar101, Obfuscate Freely, and Mad Zur for piloting the decks and helping me test this matchup.)
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
Well, one major hole I see is that you only run 8 threats post board with none of them having evasion. You cannot play defense for very long with only 8 threats (they will outnumber you) and you cannot push damage into the red zone without evasion (they will chump block you). Considering sideboarding in additional threats, such as Meddling Mage. I realize that Meddling Mage is fairly bad in the Goblins matchup but it gives you the ability to block everything but Piledriver (to help play defense) and if you answer Vial, it can prevent problematic Goblins from entering play. I'd actually recommend keeping the Mystic Enforcer, even through Port/Waste... if you can fetch basics accordingly, this creature will win you the matchup if your not too far behind. 6/6 flying is a 4 turn clock, 3 if you can manage to push 2 damage through somehow.
I also think that you shouldn't have huge problems casting Tivadar's. If you can manage to fetch basics accordingly, you should be able to cast this. They will not leave Ports open every turn every game and one resolves Tivadar's can be game winning if you have enough aggro in play.
I think Naturalize over Needle is a strong option.
I realize this is probably wayyy out there but... have you considered trying Jitte? I know it won't attach to Mongoose so it's more often going to be dead but... the deck needs a form of virtual card advantage to beat Goblins and a Werebear or Mage with Jitte seems fairly strong. Again, I realize this is way out there but the virtual advantage generated by Jitte seems fairly strong.
Another option is to try a 4c build with Fire//Ice and SB Pyroclasm. Against Goblins, you'll want to fetch your basic Island / Forest combo and leave uncracked fetchlands to grab Volcanic Islands. Both of these provide greater than 1-for-1 card advantage, which Thresh must be able to do in order to deal with Goblins. Obviously, you will stay away from grabbing white mana sources unless you need an StP for a 1st turn Lackey.
Another option could be Armageddon. If you can manage to deal with Vial and cast this, you should be able to stop the Goblin opponent from doing much. Goblins is a very mana hungry deck and cutting them off of mana sources will oftentimes wreck them. Even Winter Orb could be a solid option against them if you can deal with their Vial.
I have not testing the Goblins matchup extensively with UGw Threshold. My suggestions may be terrible but I think at least a few of those options may be worth testing at the very least.
If anything, you could always play UGr Threshold if Goblins is a dominating force in your meta. It's not as strong against UGw Thresh but at least the Goblins matchup is solid. If you board FtK's and Loaming Shaman's, you should be able to do alright against UGw (I think).
I hope some of this is actually helpful.
All that sounds great but what needs to be done is hard testing not theorycaft.
Jitte is equipable to only 4 creatures in the deck. 8 threats have never been a problem post board. As I said, only 2 in 10 games gave me an oportuninty to use Crusade if I had it, and I might not have lived anyway because I would not have been able to counter somthing with BEB (the card it would replace). I haven't tested any of the other things you mentioned but I know for a fact that Meddling Mage is horrible against goblins. Although I have considered leaving in the Mystic Enforcers against goblins, but I don't know what else to take out of the deck for them.
hmm...I think if I get the courage next week I am going to try -1 counterspell -2 Predict -1 Serum Visions, -1 Pithing needle +2 naturalize +3 BEB. Leaving in the Enforcers.
As for Playing UGR, I have been doing that the last 2 weeks at my local tournament due to the the high number of goblins and I have top 4'd both times. Ancient grudge is another good reason to run red over white imo.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
I was just trying to give you some ideas that might help, since that's what the forums are for. I don't have significant testing data against Goblins but I primarily play aggro/control decks so I was speaking from that perspective. I know that virtual card advantage and evasive fat are 2 important elements to encorporate for winning the Goblins matchup. I still think Tivadar's Crusade is still your strongest option.
I appoligize if I came off condescending. I only want to find something I can put my faith in so I can be more confident about the matchup. You might very well be right about the the threats. I know that when I play UGR I in fact have 12 threats post board because they can't let themselves get within bolt range. So maybe UGW needs to keep in the Enforcers, who knows.
Once again i'm sorry if I sounded like a know it all. Its a bad look for me to be sure. I appriciate the perspective and it does give me some things to think about.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
Yeah, it's a pretty grim battle for U/G/w Thresh. I feel confindant against bad players with shitty builds, but good players with good builds is pretty much a rout.
The last time I tried this exercise (here and here), this was the final score:
Preboard
Goblins plays: 4-1 (Goblins - Threshold)
Threshold playes: 2-3 (Goblins - Threshold)
Postboard
Goblins plays: 4-1 (Goblins - Threshold)
Threshold plays: 3-2 (Goblins - Threshold)
Final score: 13-7 Goblins wins.
I summed up my experience in this article, at the very end, under the heading "How and Why Threshold Loses to Goblins."
In short:
- AEther Vial
- Goblin Ringleader
- Tormod's Crypt
- Way, way too many guys
It doesn't help that Threshold's best cards are proactive (Needle, Daze, BEB) which depend on certain conditions for them to be good. Whereas Goblins keeps posing this question: "Deal with this and lose. Now this. How about this?" It's pretty grizzly.
The one thing I disagree with boarding out is Mystic Enforcer. I know it's counterintuitive, in fact I'm already plotting a reply, but Enforcer is a surprising champ in the match. As Hanni mentions or at least implies, if you don't have anything evasive, you're forced to win quickly with your ground-pounders, but if Thresh stall and is dragged into the mid/late game (perhaps from an untimely activation of Tormod's Crytpt), it will most likely lose without something that flies. There are just too many guys to handle, Ringleader and SGC will shit all over your face, and the game is just going to go downhill. Enforcer at least gives you hope that you can win a game you should otherwise lose.
From my games with Machinus, Enfocer probably accounted for half of my wins.
.
Interesting...
I will def. give it a try and post with the results. It might explain why I have been doing so good with UGR, Bolt is my reach, my enforcer so to speak. And its even worse for goblins when its uncounterable damage at instant speed.
What was Machinus boarding in? Was he going with the 3crypt4Chalice plan? That tends to give grow fits in ways I can't effectively verbalize.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
You have 7 slots dedicated to Goblins anyways, how about an 8-Blast plan? Early on, Blasts are removal and midgame, counterspells for those unwelcome Ringleaders, Siege-Gang Commanders, and removal for those Tinkerers threatening your Needles. Spot removal won't win the MU, but I'd imagine countering their card advantage sources would be some good. On the other hand, I guess the Chalice-plan does present issues in that, you need counters/removal available for Chalice and Vial with the constant danger of Tormod's Crypt looming about.
I haven't done exact testing in a control environment, but I've played the matchup enough to understand the fundamentals. I would also argue that enforcer needs to stay in. I've never been a fan of crusade, though, if only because it forces you to play suboptimally in other areas in order to achieve WW. I run 4 BEB in my board, which helps a lot as you must know. Additionally, I run 3 maindeck stifle (instead of needle) and this has worked very well for stopping ringleader, wasteland (unlike needle, they don't see it coming until they've lost a land), siege-gang and matron, and fetches if they run them.
But anyway, my board plan is usually:
-2 predict
-1 portent
-1 Counterspell
-2 condemn
+4 BEB
+2 Krosan grip
This gives me 3 stifle, 4 swords, 4 BEB, 2 grip, 3 daze, 2 counterspell, and 4 FoW. If you somehow won the first game, one daze can be taken out in place of condemn or portent.
I agree that this match up is tough, but I have done decently with that setup. The boarding answers a lot of problems, such as BEB in place of the narrow condemn and krosan grip in place of a few cantrips; to answer chalice, crypt, vial, etc. However, I must point out that I've played against builds with fetchlands, which make stifle better. But even without fetches stifle is great for tormod's crypt and the goblins mentioned above.
I hope some of this helped you out.
I actually stopped running Blasts because of Chalice. I run one Basic Plains to try to make Tivadar's possible. Blasts cannot stop a Chalice, nor can they be played after one resolves. They can only kill Vial'ed creatures, and that doesn't help much with Piledriver or Ringleader.
My SB plan:
+3 Tivadar's Crusade, +2 Naturalize, + 2 Stifle.
-4 Daze, -1 Predict, -1 Portent, -1 Mystic Enforcer.
I run three Enforcers and 2 Needles main deck.
The reason why is this. Daze is dead after turn three against Goblins more often than not. Your best spells against Goblins cost three and four respectively. They will take every opportunity to mess with your manabase, so why help them? Unless they drop a first turn Vial, a Wasteland on turn two or three hurts them as much as you. You still have Force for a turn one Vial, and Plow as well if a Lackey appears.
Without it's ACC, Daze is awful. The fact that you will most often be on the play in Game 2 somewhat mitigates this, but it doesn't change the fact that it adds a turn before you can cast Tivadar's or Enforcer. Both gamebreakers in this matchup. I use cantrips early to get land and/or Tivadar's and Enforcer. Then just play uncracked Fetchlands until I have the appropriate mana. With one one Island and one other land, you can Counterspell, and cast either Swords or creatures. Stifle can slow the early bleeding.
In the case they get an early Port, you have to Needle it. But most often Tivadar's will swing the tempo back in your favor even if they have gotten out quickly. Again, Vial is the biggest enemy in this case. Otherwise they are just stalling, as you should keep dropping land. If you are unable to counter it do to the removal of Daze, you still have Naturalize, Needle, and Stifle to help through the first four turns.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
I like your strategy regarding what you bring in, but I think your boarding out strategy is questionable. assuming you have 4 daze, 2 cs?, 3 enforcer, and 3 needle? I would board out 1 Daze, 1 Counterspell (Daze is going to be better than CS when you on the play and it actually makes it easier to resolve crusade vs. port), 1 Enforcer, 1 needle, 2 Predict, 1 Serum Visions (trust me Portent is better as your 4 of post board).
Which brings me to another point non-related to the goblin matchup. If your only running one set of cantrips in addition to Brainstorm I feel that Portent is better than Serum Visions is every way. At first I was worried about drawing them in multiples, but after a couple games where I drew three Portents and in one turn played them all (Using one shuffle of a Portent, and one fetch) to sculpt a near perfect hand durring my opponents upkeep. The card is just plain amazing.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
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