I have been toying with this deck since Through the Breach is available. With Bogardan Hellkite and Simian Spirit Guide joining the party, this deck is much more consistent (though still is an inconsistent deck) than before. The explosive early game is simply awesome. With a lot of redundancy of the cards, the pieces just come together naturally. As a typical combo deck, you need a good mulligan skill plus some top deck skill (BS dumb luck) as well. Since I don’t see anyone discuss about this deck I will start a topic here. Here is the deck list:
Beaters (16):
4 Dragon Tyrant
4 Bogardan Hellkite
4 Nicol Bolas
4 Symbiotic Wurm
Engine (8):
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
Free Mana (12):
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
More Acceleration (4):
4 Seething Song
Lands (20):
8 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
Card Explanations
Dragon Tyrant: Easy 12 damages. Its ability to pump is a big plus too.
Bogardan Hellkite: It’s common to hard cast it on third turn, and occasionally on second turn. It’s quite strong against goblins. Especially letting Goblin Lackey put a siege-gang commander then shoots them down on your turn. With Dragon Tyrant, any combination of the two hit the play usually is a win without removals.
Nicol Bolas: Anti control mainly. First or second turn Nicol Bolas can really wreck some slow or land light decks. Although more often both side are on top deck mode afterward, with extra mana sources and perhaps sneak attack in play, you have a good chance to recover before than your opponent.
Symbiotic Wurm: Another deadly weapon against slow decks. It’s a 3 turn clock immediately. Most decks will just roll over and die if it comes down on first turn.
Sneak Attack/ Through the Breach: In general Sneak Attack is better because of its recurring effect, though Through the Breach has a few things better than Sneak Attack. First it has loose red mana requirement. Often your open hand has 2 x (Ancient Tomb, Crystal Vein or City of Traitors) plus a free red mana in hand you will rather have Through the Breach than Sneak Attack. Further more it’s an instant so you can cast it at the end of your opponent’s turn to bait a counter spell. Then cast a Sneak Attack or another Through the Breach on your own turn. Plus it dodges Pithing Needle.
Lotus Petal: Free mana, yeeeeeees!
Simian Spirit Guide: Free red mana from Planar Chaos exactly what I need to complete this deck. Remember Simian Spirit Guide is also a grey ogre too. Hard cast it after a Symbiotic Wurm generated a lot of insect tokens or Nicol Bolas discarded your opponent’s hand is pretty good. Sometimes you just need him to stop that first turn Lackey…
Chrome Mox: I am not a big fan of it (due to card disadvantage and Which Key Spell I Should Imprint Syndrome). Well, in the beginning I was using Rite of Flame. Too often I was stuck with a Rite and a bunch of colorless mana producing lands plus all the goodies in my hand. I REALLY NEED A REUSABLE RED MANA SOURCE!! I switched to Mox Diamond, which simply don’t work with only 20 lands in this deck. Thus I finally turn to Chrome Mox and result was terrific. The reason it works well is that this deck, without tutors, is totally base on redundancy draw. You often have extras cards wait to be imprinted. Sneak Attack is much more effective with an extra mana source like this one.
Seething Song: A key acceleration card in this deck. It makes first turn win possible:
1 x (Ancient Tomb, City of traitor, Crystal Vein)
2 x (Lotus Petal, Simian Spirit Guide)
1 x Seething Song
1 x Sneak Attack
2 x (Dragon Tyrant, Bogardan Hellkite)
Okay it rarely happens (I haven’t be able to draw this hand once after a lot of play testing), with one 2 mana land and a free mana, 1st turn Seething Song > Sneak Attack/Though the Breach is quite common.
8 Mountains: Solid red mana source.
Ancient Tomb/City of Traitor/Crystal Vein: They could all produce 2 mana the turn they play that’s only reason they are here.
The Cards Didn’t Work Too Well:
Sensei’s Divining Top: 4 > 2 > 1 > 0 I slowly cut them out because I’d rather have extra mana source or creature in my hand instead. Since this deck is too vulnerable to discards, I might put one or two of them in MD again.
Defense Grid: A situational card. A great card versus counter spell and instant removal and a dead against agro and discards. A good sideboard card though. First turn Defense Grid, second turn Sneak Attack > Nicol Bolas destroyed plenty of blue decks (Especially Solidarity) in my play testing.
Rite of Flame: As I mentioned before it’s neither a free mana nor produce a lot of mana like Seething Song.
Blazing Shoal: It was in this deck before Bogardan Hellkite exist and Defense Grid was still MD. Now it’s totally pointless…
Fetch lands: Without Sensei’s Diving Top MD, there is no reason to run these lands?
The Cards Might Work:
Serra Avatar: It doesn’t fly so more often it will get chump blocked. So I never bothered to try it. On the other hand…
Zodiac Dragon: Oracle text says “If Zodiac Dragon is put into your graveyard, you may return Zodiac Dragon to your hand.” Sounds pretty cool. As a 8/8… WITHOUT FLYING!!! This dragon is also not good enough.
Serum Powder: I just don’t get this card. Is it really usable?
Kokusho, the Evening Star: If it’s not a legendary creature, and it’s red I probably will run it. 6cc is really easily to hard cast in this deck. Why black always get the good stuff?
Side Board:
I haven’t figure it out, it might look like this:
3 x Defense Grid
3 x Sensei’s Divining Top
3 x Mind Slicer
3 x Scrap ( Meltdown?)
3 x Thran Foundry
That’s all I can think of right now. This deck needs serious tuning. Any comments or suggestions are welcome.
Why not run Serra Avatar for that first turn kill probability?
Have you also considered Fireblast? It seems like that extra 4 damage can win you the game early after a first turn Sneak Attack.
Splashing black for Shallow Grave might also be an option. It has amazing synergy with Sneak Attack and Breach. It also gives you the option of Duress and Cabal Therapy.
Cavius, your experience with Sligh should tell you that Fireblast + 8 mountains = not tech. Also, I doubt a black splash is going to be worth the strain it'd put on the mana base, especially considering that the deck is pure aggro (ie. it doesn't have time to be playing Duress/Therapy).
That said, I'm not a fan of the Sneak Attack archetype and I doubt I ever will be. Simian Spirit Guide is probably a major boon for the deck, as you said tianyuan.
Originally Posted by pi4meterftw
Gamble?
In a deck based around finding one card, I'd use every method I could to find that card.
Splash of white for Enlightened Tutor and more sideboard options is a possibility.
Also, Crater Hellion over Symbiotic Wurm. Hellion will be a one-sided Wrath of God in your favor that cripples a lot of aggro decks in this format.
I agree that Gamble deserves testing. Should raise your overall consistency a lot, and when you don't need it it can be pitched to Chrome Mox. It can also find you the specific creature you need when you need it. Also, Gamble might let you work with more of a creature toolkit, letting you run more 2-3 of's for utility.
Sneak Attack decks haven't been atractive for a long time because of Pithing Needle, but Through the Breach gives you an alternative win which seems real nice.
Have you considered Darksteel Colossus? Seems like the added disruption could be a real boon against a wide variety of archetypes, and it's rarely going to be symmetrical.
Also, have you considered Empty the Warrens in the sideboard? They might be a nice alternative win for decks that bring in Needle on Sneak Attack for you, and a good way to play around countermagic and Swords to Plowshares. It shouldn't be hard to build up 3-5 Storm on first turn and ride 6-10 1/1 dorks to victory in certain matchups. Just a thought.
Also, I'd consider a couple Barbarian Rings in place of Mountains. It doesn't slow you down at all, you create Threshold very quickly, and it's a decent way to get that last couple points of damage you need.
Symbiotic Wurm is hands down one of the best Sneak Attack critters available. Hellion is a great SB option against weenie decks, but Wurm gives you 7 1/1 beaters after your creature goes to the yard. Without it, you can often stall out in your initial rush. I can't see running less than 4 of them in the maindeck. Besides, you're a lot faster than aggro. You should theoretically smash them anyway.Also, Crater Hellion over Symbiotic Wurm. Hellion will be a one-sided Wrath of God in your favor that cripples a lot of aggro decks in this format.
You are already pretty tight on the mana base but if you want to keep your dudes around longer you could consider safe haven. Also a pretty sweet combo with sneak attack is Hoverguard Sweepers.
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Did you mean Sundering Titan? Because it rock in here.
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Yes I did. For some reason my brain overlaps their names all the time. Thank you for the clarification.
Darksteel Colossus is not the worst ever hasty drop for R either.... Sundering Titan seems like it would reward you for playing even more non-basic lands like the Barbarian Rings. Cabal Therpay seems like a reasonable idea, since you rather desperately want to make sure Through the Breach or Sneak Attack Resolve against decks with counters. Against decks with STP, that muzzles your plan for too long sometimes. And against combo, well, are you fast enough without disruption? Cabal Therapy also has the obvious benefit of flashing back without any real 'cost' to you since your guys are headed to the yard anyway. Have you considered Nicol Bolas for the deck? We've run him before to good effect as nobody likes 'take 7, lose your hand' for some reason, regardless of deck or archetype.
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Okay guys, thanks a lot for your suggestions. I appreciate all the support. It seems like it's better to test play with the deck a bit first. After all it's not dragon storm deck and it's much faster than it as far as I can tell (You dont need to wait for building up the storm count and mana problem is less problematic when you compare 5 and 9). But that make Empty the Warren crappy most of time. Simian Spirit Guide doesn't counter toward storm you know.
Sunder Titan? It's interesting I will check it out. Against controlish decks? I think Barbarian Ring should work.
Crater Hellion over Symbiotic Wurm? Probably not. Against aggro? Definitely yes. Those god damn goblins will have a harder time facing this deck. Bogardan Hellkite is annoying enough. Plus Crater Hellion? Which is very easy to hard cast with this deck should be amazing against them.
Gamble is a card I really dont want to gamble with. I had a lot of bad experience with it. Maybe I should try it again.
Save Haven? It doesn't produce mana and that's very terrible when you desperately need to cast out spell within 2 turns.
Forget about splashing color though. Once you see this deck explode without a land that can produce color mana, you will see why I am not bothered with Duress and counter spells.
Against STP and Counterspell, I have Defense Grid. Usually first turn ancient tomb/City of Traitors > Defense grid is a win against them. I found 1st turn Duress is more problematic for this deck. It's almost instant lost:( I have to use Divining Top again? Hmmm... What am I missing against discard?
Just a thought, as I haven't played with the deck much, but what about Dragon Mage? It seems like you use a lot of cards in hand to speed into a Sneak Attack, and though he only swings for 5 he has the nice effect of making you draw seven cards to refill your hand full of fatties/other mana sources to get those fatties into play.
Sure, he makes your opponent draw seven too, but he also makes them discard their hand. If you beat with Dragon Mage on turns 1-2, you could be seriously screwing with someone's gameplan.
Oh, and the interaction with Nicol Bolas is just great. Stack the Bolas trigger, then Mage, and they discard their hand, draw 7, then discard their hand, leaving you with 7 cards and them with none.
I honestly don't know if they would be that great, but they sound good on paper, and they're at least more useful than Dragon Tyrant.
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The best sneak attack creatures are:
(11) Darksteel Colossus (trample, reshuffled into deck)
(9) Devouring Strossus (flying, trample)
(6+6+X) Dragon Tyrant (flying, trample, double strike, firebreathing)
(9) Colossus of Sardia (trample)
(7) Nicol Bolas (flying, mind twists opponent)
(5+5) Kokusho, the Evening Star (flying, drain lifes opponent)
(5+5) Bogardan Hellkite (flying, 5 damage to divide between creatures and players when it comes into play)
There can be arguments made for:
(8) Zodiac Dragon (when it's put into a graveyard from play, return it to your hand)
(1-20) Serra Avatar (damage = to your life)
(6) Dromar, the Bannisher (flyer, for 2U you can get all of your creatures back for replaying next turn)
(4 or X) Scion of the Ur-Dragon (flyer, for 2 you search your deck for dragon and it becomes a copy of it until end of turn. Useful for Dragon Tyrant, Kokusho, Dromar if you had a lot of life)
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I still think you should list Sundering Titan for its propensity to annihilate a mana base (plus it IS a big creature, even without trample)
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
You shouldn't ever need to do that though. Any two of the creatures on the top half of the list will win the game (most of the time) for RR except combination including Nicol Bolas. Nicol Bolas has evasion and mind twists them letting you spend a R to win at your leisure.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Nicol Bolas turn 1 when you're on the play.. sooo big
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Last edited by Zilla; 02-16-2007 at 08:06 PM.
I replaced 4 mountain with four Sandstone Needle:
Beaters (16):
4 Dragon Tyrant
4 Bogardan Hellkite
4 Nicol Bolas
4 Symbiotic Wurm
Engine (8):
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
Free Mana (12):
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
More Acceleration (4):
4 Seething Song
Lands (20):
4 Mountain
4 Sandstone Needle
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
Sandstone Needle is great because it produces two Red mana. Since I rarely plays mountain first turn unless I am sure I can do stupid things next turn, Sandstone Needle is superior. Before I add it in the deck I often have to mull when there are two mountain in my open hand. Even I have sneak attack in my hand I could barely cast it and activate the ability once on second turn due lack of colored mana. Now I dont have to worry it anymore. Just first turn Sandstone needle, second turn play a 2 mana land, sneak attack, and 5 cards in hands... Scary huh?
Against Duress and other problematic 1cc spells, will Chalice of Void be useful? I will test about that.
Strictly speaking, a case can be made for Symbiotic Wurm (for the 7 tokens) and Yosei the Morning Star for the extra turn it grants you. Being red is plus, as you often want to have the Blazing Shoal in Sneak to kill with one swing, especially from DS Tyrant.
Also, Rorix Bladewing and Thunder Dragon win awards for being awesome, hardcastable creatures.
Basic when I playing the deck I noticed one thing about the creature base is that it's seperate into two types:
1. fast beaters that creature heavy deck w/ a lot of low casting cost ones can't handle. Usually this require your creature has good evasion and capable to deal 10 + damage(means two of them get out you win the match) most of time. We have:
(6+6+X) Dragon Tyrant (flying, trample, double strike, firebreathing)
(5+5) Kokusho, the Evening Star (flying, drain lifes opponent)
(5+5) Bogardan Hellkite (flying, 5 damage to divide between creatures and players when it comes into play)
(11) Darksteel Colossus (trample, reshuffled into deck)
If these creatures are meant for against creature heavy deck, that means Darksteel Colossus is going to be chump blocked, which will be a major problem after 2nd turn. a lot of 2cc 3/3, 4/4 these days, even a 2/2 bear could be annoying. So we only have Bogardan Hellkite, Kokusho, Dragon Tyrant. Compare these three, Kokusho is neither red nor non-legendary creature. You don't want to see two of them in your hand with a sneak attack. So Kokusho is out, but no totally though. I will talk about that later.
2. Anti control:
(7) Nicol Bolas (flying, mind twists opponent)
(7) Symbiotic Wurm (generate 7 1/1 insect tokens when it goes to graveyard)
(6) Penumbra Wurm (generate a 6/6 black Wurm token when it goes to graveyard)
(1-20) Serra Avatar (damage = to your life)
Of course Nicol Bolas' discard effect is too good to be ignored. Then Symbiotic wurm's 7 1/1 token will make sure single creature removal spell is too late to beat them. Penumbra Wurm is lacking compare to Symbiotic wurm from size to effect. Serra Avatar is quite tricky. It's just terrible if you can't sent it out on first turn. And Ancient tomb doesn't help either. It's still a good card though.
And now I have to combine the syngery between these two kinds:
Against aggro:
Nicol Bolas and Symbiotic wurm doesn't win you game against aggros, but they could buy you some time. Serra Avatar is... a dead card often.
Against control: Dragon Tyrant has ability to pump makes him pseudo Serra Avatar if you have some red mana availble (one seething song that will be it). And Bogardan Hellkite has flash. Casting at the end of your opp's turn bait counters could be an interesting move. Otherwise they will have to use an instant removals or lose 10 life at least.
16 creature for this deck is bit lacking though. I think the ideal amount should be 18. So I am think of adding Kokusho or Serra Avatar main deck.
For Blazing Shoal. Before Bogardan Hellkite it was good. Now Bogardan Hellkite pretty much means 10 dmgs on its own.
How does one chump block an 11/11 indestructible trampler? 2 Kokusho means it will take 2 turns to deal 10 damage + 10 lifeloss or 1 turn to deal 5 damage + 10 lifeloss. I fail to see the problem here.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
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