Reyhan, last of the Abzan Question.

[Borg]

I find nothing but contradicting opinions about the workings of this card.
Reyhan, last of the Abzan
https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/C...verseid=503337
Anybody in the know here who can confirm 100% for sure how this works.

I have a Reyhan in play and I cast a second one.
Is the following correct, or not ?

1. The second Reyhan resolves and enters the battlefield WITH three +1/+1 counters on it ( this is not a triggered ability )
2. you must put one Reyhan into the GY, which by definition means he "dies"
3. you may put three +1/+1 counters on the remaining Reyhan ( or any other creature in play, even opposing )

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Six counters.
Each copy will see one die, so each one will trigger and try and put counters onto something.
Assuming you choose to ditch the one with three counters. It's possible in your scenario that the first one didn't have 3 counters

[PirateKing]

Yeah sounds correct, except for what FourDogsinaHorseSuit said.
704.5j is a state based check, both would be in play fully resolved, each with 3 counters on it.
One would dies, with each seeing a creature leave with counters on them.
Reyhan doesn't move counters, it places new ones, so there would be two triggers each for 3 counters.

What is the counter opinion? The new Reyhan dies as a 0/0?

[Borg]

I saw it stated that the Reyhan going to the GY was not actually "dying" and thus didn't trigger the counters effect.

The answers in this thread are still unclear to me.

Why would BOTH Reyhans trigger when one is put into the GY and generate counters twice ?
The effect can only trigger while being in play so, as far as I understand it :
One Reyhan dies, the other triggers and gets to put three +1/+1 counters on a creature.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Oh, well that's certainly dying. Dying is simply shorthand for "goes to the graveyard from the battlefield". The game doesn't care how long they were in play or how. If they were on the battlefield, and then were in the graveyard, they died.
Creatures see themselves die. The second Reyhan therefore saw a creature with counters on it go to the graveyard from the battlefield: itself.

So: the first Reyhan saw the second show up with three counters, and die. At the same time the second Reyhan saw itself die so both of them are triggering

[Borg]

At the same time the second Reyhan saw itself die so both of them are triggering

Are you 100% sure of that ?
Can you point to where in the rules this is stated.

AFAIK a creature only dies when it arrives in the GY ( from the BF ).
A creature in the GY loses all abilities so it cannot trigger to its own dying imo.

[PirateKing]

603.10a is the rule you're looking for.
Creatures see themselves enter and leave play, and will create triggers for any enter or leave the battlefield effects, including their own.
So when the Legend Rules tells you to put a copy of Reyhan from the battlefield into the graveyard, both copies will see a card with +1/+1 counters dying, each creating a trigger for 3 counters.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Are you 100% sure of that ?
Can you point to where in the rules this is stated.

AFAIK a creature only dies when it arrives in the GY ( from the BF ).
A creature in the GY loses all abilities so it cannot trigger to its own dying imo.

If this is true, how would mechanics like undying or persist work?

[Borg]

Thank you very much for pointing me to the rule.
Case solved.
This makes it even better than I hoped for ;)

Thanks to both of you for your help.