I'm glad someone got the (very outdated) joke.Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit
Lorien Revealed is interesting but looks too clunky for Dreadnought. If it was an instant it might be playable in control (fixes land, pitches to Force, draws cards). 3UU sorcery speed is a lot just to draw 3. Compare that to Standstill, Sylvan Library, Brainstorm, Ancestral Vision, etc... even Predict. There are more efficient ways to draw cards.
You misunderstand what lorien and their ilk are: they're fetches that enter tapped, and pitch to forces and elementals
Don't think of them as spells, and unlike the MDFCs they're multicolored
Lorien is only going to work if you have a coherent plan for your mana. When the plan is spamming duals into Wasteland and never getting to 6 mana to play around Daze, you're not unlocking the point of the card. It's also pointless to have no real plan for 1 mana, grab your second land while your dual (first land) gets Waste'd and end back up on 1 mana asking yourself why it is you can't deploy a 1 mana threat...particularly since this puts a sorcery into the GY at instant speed for DRC.
Play 2c, play basics. Add Lorien, drastically reducing true 1-land hands, and getting to & staying at 2 mana.
Unlike fetches or MDFC, Lorien needs another land in play. It's more like Ash Barrens than Terramorphic Expanse (tapped fetch), except it doesn't have Ash Barrens' backup mode of entering as initial mana (2 Ash Barrens = 1 colorless + 1 fetch, 2 Lorien = 0 mana).
The ability's good. But it doesn't let you get as greedy cutting lands as MDFC (can be initial mana). You still need enough real lands to draw initial mana and not get screwed by Wasteland. It's also much better if you can use the 3UU mode.
Fieldmist Borderpost is a tapped dual that pitches to Force and Solitude, grows Saga constructs, and ramps. Saw 0 competitive play in the last decade. It's a weak way to spend turn 1. If it's not standalone mana like MDFC, the spell side needs to be relevant too.
If you do cut to 2c, is UB now viable with Bowmasters? Or is black still too weak compare to UR or UW?
Does the UW build want Samwise to recur Saga, Dreadnought, Dress Down, Standstill, etc?
It also DID see play (or it's ilk) with restore balance in either modern or legacy.
But also:
Sorcery Speed spell
Basic Land in play
Fixed dual
Enters Tapped (so costs two mana)
Vs
Activated ability
Any mana source
And land of the chosen type
Costs 1.
I like the sound of UB but there's a lot of cards out there I'd want in either green or red.
I don't think you want Sam., Not with dreadnought. Same way you don't want reanimate with dreadnought in your ub list. (Though you should probably play reanimate anyways for Bowmaster and grief)
The problem with UB is that since the banning of DRS, the color has not had a playable 1-drop (Gurmag and Shadow can't be played turn 1). If we march out all the deckbuilding decisions, you always end up with UB-based Landstill being the better option. So the best UB-based Dreadstill build is just UB Landstill with a 13 card SB + Dreadnought & Scroll of Fate (just to meet the requirement of being called Dreadstill).
As far as UB Dreadnought goes: you don't have damage-based gameplan, you don't have turn 1 proactive plays (so you can't use Mycosynth effectively, and you can't count to 20 dmg), you can't use black's polarizing removal (Innocent Blood and 3 mana wraths hit your own things, Snuff Out can't kill enemy Bowmaster), Daze isn't helpful, we know that the only playable way for UB to answer Chalice is Karn, and so on. Meanwhile UB Landstill can play the asymmetry game of not really having creatures to turn on opponents' removal and not hitting itself with it's own kill spells. Everything that UB Dreadnought can do is too slow - and I mean as slow as Landstill...just without control. We're not going to play Qarsi High Priest,Sultai Emissary, Bowmaster, and Nought. I mean it is cool that you can sacrifice the orc army to manifest, and send the ping from Bowmaster to Emissary, but Scroll of Fate is better and less slot-intensive.
On the CA side of things, you're not allowed to play Confidant or Strix (too much waiting for cmc 2, too vulnerable to enemy Bowmaster, and too slow of a clock to pressure combo). Bowmaster itself is often a dead card, so you also need 4 slots of SB mapping to get this thing out of your deck in g2/3. Like I'm not going to play Arcane Denial to try and make Bowmaster relevant when the opponent isn't being cooperative (certainly not when Drown in the Loch exists). So we're down to Dreadnought and a Bowmaster we have to be able to side out....and uh....we're just doing what else? Playing into yard hate with MurkGoyf or not being able to block enemy MurkGoyf b/c we chose Sailors' Bane (aka SeaGoyf)? There are few things worse against combo than tapping out for Goyf.
Then what is the plan for the mana? Keep railroading yourself while all of these can't be cast while Saga is eating the mana at the same time as you need to deploy these? Then you go down a land b/c Saga died, and you're losing land drops to activating Wasteland...like when are you going to start playing the game; turn 5??? Okay well, now you need Landstill levels of controlling cards, otherwise your opponent is going to go crazy with 1 mana kill spells *the same turn as making PWs.*
On the Grief stuff, you don't have the CA to alt-cast this guy. The only redeeming thing is that Grief + Stifle is a turn 1 black threat....but your hand is now 3 cards (-1 land, -1 Grief, -1 exile, -1 Stifle). You're not winning from this point with a 3/2 menace. Even if you impeded your own combo by cutting Stifle for Reanimate, you're still probably losing...but also why is your 12/12 not Death's Shadow at this point?
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On Samwise in UW, I can recur everything Sam could except for Karn for 1x slot of Sevinne's. Sam also has issues with being played at 1x since you need 3-4x copies to cheese removal; e.g. kill spell target Sam #1 -> cast Sam #2 -> kill Sam #1, rebuy Sam #1. UW doesn't have the slots for this, and for 2 mana I'm going to punish Daze users with Timeless Dragon.
With Sam you're better off without Standstill. You'd be doing something slow like Saga find Map find Karakas -> Sam/Dress Down looping to simulate Gush. Problem there is that that's 4 lands (2 to power Saga/activate Map/cast Sam, 1 from the Saga sacrifice, and 1 from Karakas); at 4 lands I could just go Teferi -> progress to Karn -> wish Coating -> Coat Teferi, bounce self each turn...but also I'd be answering a ton of effects with the passives and developing towards endlessly Sinkhole'ing my opponent's manabase before Teferi self-Gush'ing.
UB Dreadstill wouldn't work (lack of proactive 1s to play under Standstill). The question is if UB Dressnought would. You make a good point that all the best tempo plays are done better by UB Shadow without consuming as many slots.
Shadow already jumped to Tier 1 since Bowmaster. So if you're running Grief, Bowmasters, Reanimate, Murktide, Daze, Thoughtseize, you're hard-pressed not to make those 12/12s into Shadows and have a more cohesive deck.
Edit: Shadow also gets to run the Swampcycling creature (mana stability) AND Reanimate it profitably OR Delve it to Murktide OR pitch it to Grief. I guess Dressnought can use Lorien as Uro fuel, but it's not getting the same level of value. Lorien hasn't been showing up in winning lists yet.
Need to make a Venn diagram of everything in shadow that works with dreadnought.
Force, dress down, brainstorm ponder and Bowmasters in the center
Ofc no guarantee the things in the middle go with each other
Useless synergy until we can combine big stats + CA (Arguel's Blood Fast -> transform to Diamond Valley) + "when I gain X, opponent loses X".
The biggest pro of Death Nought/Naked Shadow is Thoughtseize and the scam package (Grief/Troll/Reanimate).
Thoughtseize is amazing in a resolve/protect the Queen strategy for two turns to win the game like Nude Shadow lists.
But I feel the decks are being misbuilt. Murktide>>Channeler.
Slip out the back should be played here. I prefer it to the Stifle/Daze/Wasteland approach. I would rather be playing Slip Out the Back/Thoughtseize/Mycosynth Saga in those slots.
The only threats in the deck should be playing are some combination of Dreadnought, Death’s Shadow, and Murktide. These threats win the game in 2 attacks. The rest of the deck should be focused on resolving and protecting these threats. Utility threats like Brazen Borrower, Bowmasters, Uro, Troll/Grief/Reanimate are worth playing but more for their disputive role in helping resolve and protect the threats.
Basically every actual threat in the deck should win the game if it attacks 2-3 times.
In a world where initiative decks are readily able to get 4-5 swings in, if built correctly we should easily be able to get 2 swings in with our threats and win the game faster.
So Thoughtseize is a pretty terrible magic card against FIRE. Not a card you want to be drawing when other people have Uro or monarch off Forth, initiative stuff, etc. The only redeeming quality to the card is that it contributes to the life loss engine of Shadow. The Shadow deck does not get better by adding Dreadnought package b/c they don't share tech (same concept as why Nought + Painter always fails to generate a real deck).
Trying to play 2-drop threat: the Gathering is bad deck construction (particularly vs combo which Shadow or Nought decks are supposed to farm). Adding crappy mana on top of that is worse. Adding Daze on top of the inability to pressure on turn 1, worse still.
Let's be very clear on this point: DRC is way better than yet another 2 drop. It generates pressure, it reduces variance, it passively combos with landcyclers and Saga (delirium; note also how the cyclers and Saga stuff does not make big Murktides), and it puts you in red giving you Blast effects and Price of Progress.
You want to time the meta? Cast Price. Just go to twitch and watch this 4-5c Ring decks and Shadow, count their dual lands and look at their life totals. Then look at what else is going on (Mind's Desire) - go back in time to RUG Delver vs Storm; how do you beat Storm: a turn 1 clock and disruption. Get on board, play DRC.
The other timing you're missing is Vision Charm. This card 1-shots Doomsday, 1-shots Saga, and 1-shots High Tide (Mind's Desire). Slip scores an impressive 0 out of 3 here. The other thing you can do is prevent Ring resetting: they cast #2, you phase out #1 and now they do not get to fade the upkeep damage (this is helpful b/c you play Bolt and PoP).
Not sure what you mean by crappy mana. Shadow Nought can easily work as a UB Deck or a UBr Deck.
You’re minimizing the synergy of Dress Down with Shadow. They also complementhh hh each other in that Shadow, Dreadnought (and Murktide usually) are bigger than whatever your opponent has and can swing in with impunity for 12 damage while racing any creatures your opponent has on the board. You dont need to play removal if your threats are outright bigger and faster than your opponent. You can instead fill up the rest of your slots with proactive disruption (Thoughtseize, Grief), counterspells (FoW, optionally Daze/Fluster) and cards that protect your threats from removal (Slip Out, Vision Charm, Reanimate, Mycosynth Gardens)
Shadow/Nought/Murktide essentially end the game with even a single successful attack in a list with Bolts/PoP. Both are very cheap threats that you just need to resolve and protect for a turn or two in order to win the game. If the rest of the deck is built to do that, they work very well together. The appeal of Slip Out the Back is that it protects all of your threats from removal, not just Dreadnought but also Shadow, Murktide, Grief and Troll.
But otherwise good points and especially in regards to Vision Charm.
It hasnt occured to me how much utility Vision Charm has now. Definitely worth trying atleast as a 1 of if High Tide ends up a popular deck once the dust settles. Two questions…
How does it 1-shot Saga?
Dont both Slip and Vision 1-shot Painter for a turn as well? Is that worth it, stopping Painter for a turn?
P.S: Thoughtseize and Grief are excellent cards. Plenty of top tier decks succeed while utilizing proactive black cards as the majority or even the only disruption they play.
I am thinking my new list is going to cut some Stifles, Dazes and Wastelands and instead play the following Dreadnought package…
4 Dreadnought
4 Dress Down
2 Stifle
1 Slip Out the Back
1 Vision Charm (if Hide Tide stays popular)
1-2 Mycosynth Gardens
Maybe 1 Urza’s Saga if I am cutting Wasteland.
Alongside the shadow/scam/grief package…
4 Thoughtseize
4 Grief
4 Troll
4 Reanimate
4 Shadow
X Bowmasters
X Murktide
Name "Urza's" for the land type, and name anything for the basic land type.
The saga is now a basic land, and like with blood moon, dies due to being a saga past it's last chapter.
The Shadow/Scam package is the best direction for the deck currently.
Boshnroll 5-0ed with a sweet build…
https://youtu.be/_pYeymSuFs4
4 Dress Down
4 Brainstorm
4 Death's Shadow
2 Dismember
2 Fatal Push
4 Grief
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
4 Reanimate
3 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
3 Troll of Khazad-dûm
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
3 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave
SIDEBOARD:
1 Brazen Borrower // Petty Theft
2 Dauthi Voidwalker
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Hydroblast
1 Life from the Loam
2 Null Rod
1 Sheoldred's Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
The list is damn near perfect except for one fundamental flaw…
The Fatal Push/Dismembers are near worthless in the current meta. They did nothing all league and were sided out every round. If they were Daze, Bowmasters, Brazen Borrower, Spell Pierce or the 4th Stifle or 4th Troll or 4th Dreadnought, they would be much more impactful. You dont need to play removal if your threats are outright bigger and faster than your opponent. You can instead fill up the rest of your slots with proactive disruption (Thoughtseize, Grief), counterspells (FoW, Daze/Fluster) and cards that protect your threats from removal (Slip Out, Vision Charm, Reanimate, Mycosynth Gardens)
New Lazav, the Multifarious just dropped.
Functionally similar to Varolz, yes Varolz also combos with Shadow but the loot ability is a massive asset. If only it had 2 toughness it would absolutely be worth a slot or two.
The new card is fine in the sense that Lazav is garbage vs Karakas and useless after they inevitably cast Surgical target Nought; whereas this card can still draw/discard. Bowmasters is about 40% of the meta however, so this card is a massive liability. There is also a problem where you can't trade with a Delver/DRC/Murktide/Endurance, which makes flying flavor text. You also run into the problem where black hasn't had a playable 1-drop since DRS.
In either case JVP is the better use of 2 mana, particularly with Darkblast targeting Bowmaster. Azcanta, and even Sultai Emissary, would also be better in this slot. Better still would be Scroll of Fate.
We already play Deaths Shadow. Other than Shadow, what would a playable black one drop even look like?
A 1/1 that you can sac to thoughtseize your opponent, thats all I can think of.
White has taxing and protection, green has ramp, red has haste, what does black offer its creatures thats relevent to legacy?
Can't Gurmag on turn 1, nor can you Shadow on turn 1. These are not real gameplans. Black has nothing comparable to DRC, Delver, Reclaimer, or Mother of Runes. The closest black has come to this is Reanimate/Grief, which begs the question of why we're diluting Shadow with Dreadnought variance without synergy (i.e. power) to offset the variance.
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