[Deck] Death and Taxes

[BiscuitVader]

I don't really like Wayfarer in the main deck as much as I thought I would, after having played with the deck. I almost always have mana when I need it.

I would say add in the fourth Isamaru and fourth SDT.

I'm going to test that... I'll get back to you.

[Kronicler]

I think I might try -1 stonecloaker, +1 SDT. I think grunts are fine at 3, but I've found myself lookin for that SDT quite a few times. I duno, I'm also quite fond of mother of runes in general, as it is just an amazing creature (plus I have a foil playset :-P). Maybe she deserves a spot in this deck?

Kronicler

[blitz]

@ biscuit vader: that would be me =)

as for the wayfarer MD... I play it with chrome mox. I have a second version that plays mother of runes in place of wayfarer, and SDT in place of mox, but can't really decide which is better =\

[vigilante]

I played the deck (as per the original decklist, minus the Razor Golems) in a local Legacy tournament yesterday. As Planar Chaos is not yet legal, the Razor Golem-replacing Stonecloakers were unusable, so I ran 4 Mother or Runes instead. They were a solid inclusion, helping me out big time in a Goblins matchup. However, I did find myself missing the graveyard hate, evasion, and instant-speed bounce that Stonecloaker brings to the game. Playing Mothers also increases the prevalence of 1cc spells in the deck, meaning that a Chalice of the Void set on one can be back-breaking until you see a Disenchant effect (post-boarding). That said, the deck is naturally very resilient -- I won one game despite my opponent dropping dual Pithing Needles (naming Karakas and Aether Vial. Ouch.).

Overall, I was extremely happy with how the deck performed. I managed to pilot it to a first place finish (there were roughly 20 people playing). The shared MVP prize definately goes to Tangle Wire and Rishadan Port...those things are brutal together.

[BiscuitVader]

I agree with Tangle Wire being an MVP, if you drop it at the right time, you really just win the game.

I'm currently running a Enlightened Tutor as my fourth SDT.
When I need the Top, it acts as the fourth, but once I find one, it is my fifth Wire/AEther Vial. While there are some times when it doesn't help much do to putting the card on top. I have really been liking it as a one of.

[dahcmai]

I love the Stonecloaker. That's a nice trick. I'm not sure how much I like Horori though since he's a little slow to be hitting the decks you really want. (combo). Tangle Wire helps, but how are those matchups? Seems like it would have the same problem I was having with my version.

I was playing this for quite some time, much different but had the same mangara trick in it. Mine was more of an Angel Stompy variant and I had black for Confidant. Yeah, I know I'm ballsy for running angels and Bob. I'll give yours a shot though, it seems more dedicated.

2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flagstones
4 Karakas
4 Scrubland
3 Vindicate
4 Exalted Angel
4 Silver Knight
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Duress
3 Soltari Priest
3 Mangara
4 Dark Confidant
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Aether Vial

[chmoddity]

The problem I have with Tangle Wire is that is sux ass. Seriously, against Gobs and Solidarity the card is awful. Gobs because they have big threats online before you do, so you are disrupting yourself, and Solidarity becuase they just cast their stuff in upkeep until they want to go off.

I'm going to try Glowrider in the main in its place.

[Cavius The Great]

Have you guys considered Phyrexian Warbeast as an additional 3cc critter? It seems like the Vial would be set to 3 almost systematically due to Mangara. It also can be vialed in to block Nimble Mongoose and survive, which is huge, especially considering the surprise element it provides.

[laststepdown]

I think Warbeast is less of an option than Razor Golem. Which was cut for Stonecloaker anyway.

As for Tangle Wire, I've been slowly trying to weed it out of every deck I use it in-but this one is special. See: Hokori, Dust Drinker.

[morgan_coke]

Ok, I saw this deck and really like it, but the tangle wires always looked like complete junk to me. The deck is also moderately well set-up for the late game but lacks some certain "killerness" for lack of a better term. I looked at Mana Tithe in the Tangle spot, but they were just kind of completely pointless. So I came up with idea #2. Jitte. This is the version I'm currently testing.

Creatures
4x Serra Avenger
3x Stonecloaker
3x True Believer
3x Glowrider
2x Jotun Grunt

Legendary Creatures
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3x Hokori, Dust Drinker

Removal
4x Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts
4x Aether Vial
3x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Lands
4x Karakas
4x Rishadan Port
4x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
6x Plains

Sideboard
1x True Believer
1x Glowrider
4x Rule of Law
4x Disenchant
3x Tivadar of Thorn
2x Tivadar's Crusade

completely unsure that chant doesn't belong in there somewhere, also, not really sure about the maindeck glowriders, maybe they should be maindeck tivadar's. also kind of want to replace two of the fetchlands with a pair of eiganjo's. anyway, i think the modifications to the board and the addition of jitte should put the goblins matchup firmly into the W column as well as giving the deck more to do.

cho-manno, revolutionary and kongming, "sleeping dragon" are also possibilities.

[Kronicler]

I'm not sure I agree with your changes. Tangle wire hasn't been spectacular from my experience, but it certainly helps the combo matchup more than Jitte. Also I would much rather put Mother of Runes maindeck than Glowrider... though maybe I'm wrong. It just seems like to narrow of a card to have MDed, same goes for Tividar.

Kronicler

[morgan_coke]

pretty sure glowrider helps combo more than tangle wire did

[Kronicler]

Of course it does, but that's about all it does. I dunno, maybe it is exactly what the maindeck has been lacking, I'll test it a bit, but I don't like dead draws against gobos.

Kronicler

[Finn]

OK, so I have some data to share.
I am loathe to put Glowrider in the main simply because it is almost totally dead against Gobs. That said, I have found Tangle Wire to be nearly useless against Gob as well. So I did some testing and now have an analysis to share on this front:

Tangle Wire
- No offense
- rarely backfires
- very bad vs. Gobs
- bad vs. Soldarity
- so/so vs. IGG
- very good vs. Thresh
- either very good or bad vs. Faerie Stompy depending on their draw
- decent to very good against most other opponents

Glowrider
- Minor offense possible
- rarely backfires
- very bad vs. Gobs
- excellent vs. Solidarity
- excellent vs. IGG
- very good vs. Thresh
- fair against Faeirie Stompy (again, opponent draw-dependent)
- bad vs. aggro, good vs. others

The role the two cards fulfill is similar, but it seems to me that Glowrider can improve a few matchups over Tangle Wire. That actually frees up the True Believer spot mainboard for something good against Gobs. I am inclined to start with Silver Knight. So here are the changes:

3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Serra Avenger
4 Silver Knight
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Stonecloaker
4 Glowrider
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Hokori, Dust Drinker

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Karakas
4 Rishidan Port
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
6 Plains

sideboard
3 Tivadar of Thorn
2 Jotun Grunt
3 True Believer
4 Disenchant
3 Sphere of Resistance


Thoughts:

1. So I tried 3 Stonecloakers and couldn't freakin' draw them. They are really important, and with the extra offense now, especially Silver Knight, I think it will prove too valuable to reduce to three. He's good against just about every opponent.

2. Weathered Wayfarer has no place in this deck. In about 6 or 7 matches w/sb, I used him only one time. Now he won me that game, but that was not nearly enough. Mostly he was just an Eager Cadet.

3. That's 27 potential attackers, and I am pleased as hell with that. Morgan_Coke has a pretty good plan imo with Umezawa's Jitte, but with the setup I have here, the obvious removal is Silver Knight (and not Glowrider), and I have found that Jitte and Glowrider do not play well together.

4. The exact number of cards like True Believer (anti-combo), Tivadar of Thorn (anti-Goblin), Jotun Grunt (anti-Threshold), etc. should certainly be scrutinized as we gain more understanding of the deck's strong and weak matchups. And they can be tweaked as needed for each meta.

5. I am not against Adding another Top per se, but I also don't know that it is a critical addition. If you draw a second one by accident, you can replace the extra one with some work, but an aggro deck shouldn't be putting resources into that sort of thing.

6. The Threshold matchup has been fairly good, and these changes should cut into that slightly in favor of an improved Gob and combo game. But I am still not completely happy with the Goblins matchup. We have to play aggro in the air against them to win IMO. Is this going to happen? I don't know for certain. My own testing has been just a few games here and there, and very few full matches. Can somebody do some good testing on this?

This appears to be a lot gained for only a little lost - a step in the right direction. Please let us all know what you all think.

[dahcmai]

Well, I've been hunting a new deck since I played 43 land and Extirpate pretty much owns that deck. I'll try this next Saturday and let you know my thoughts. I'll probably run it until I get my cards of Ebay for my black Survival Dredge ready to go. We have a ton of graveyard hate in this area and I need decks that can stand up to multiple Crypts, Furnaces, and Extirpates.

[Finn]

Dahcmai, I read what you wrote and you really should keep Hokori in for the time being. He puts a rapid end to games that could have otherwise gone either way. And he's tough on a lot of control decks that would have inevitablilty on this deck without him.


And btw, your avatar freaks me out.

[Kronicler]

Finn, what are your reasons for lowering the Grunt count to 2? 3 Has been working great for me against almost everything. The first grunt sticks around for a turn or 2 usually slowing the opponents offensive (in the case of gobos or thresh) or beating for 4 a turn (in the case of combo). A lot of times you can even make him trade with another creature before you run out of graveyard fuel. If you draw another after than then he is around until the end of the game.

Kronicler

[morgan_coke]

ok, been doing some more testing on this, and i've decided i just don't like top that much and the decks a bit too mana hungry to be running so few actual lands. so i cut two fetches for eiganjo's, which work nice with all the legends. next i cut top for three sword of fire and ice. this left me with a bit too much equipment and no way to get library or draw selection/advantage. so next i cut a jitte and a sword for a pair of enlightened tutors. this has been great, it also meant that I cut the T. Crusades from the board for Absolute Laws, although Sphere of Law/Ghostly Prison are other options. the current list:

Creatures
4x Serra Avenger <--- best critter in the deck imho
3x Stonecloaker <--- i don't like four because its situational
3x Glowrider <--- between this and believe g1 combo is winnable
3x True Believer <--- randomly hoses things like discard

Legends
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3x Mangara of Corondor <--- might cut one of these, powerful, but situational
3x Hokori, Dust Drinker

Equipment
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Sword of Fire and Ice

Spells
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Enlightened Tutor
4x Aether Vial

Lands
4x Karakas
2x Eiganjo Castle
3x Flooded Strand
3x Windswept Heath
6x Plains
4x Rishadan Port

Sideboard
4x Disenchant
4x Rule of Law <--- still not sure about this
1x Glowrider
1x True Believer
3x Tivadar of Thorn
2x Absolute Law

I know tutor is card disadvantage, and its slow, but ensuring you get a vial or equipment is more than enough to offset the loss. Also, I know everyone is a big fan of Top, but it just doesn't do enough in this deck, and only having 8 shuffle effects just wasn't enough. Also, it consumed mana when I'd want to be casting other things. It just seems like this is a deck that would rather draw an answer or threat rather than spend lots of time looking at the top of the library.

[dahcmai]

Dahcmai, I read what you wrote and you really should keep Hokori in for the time being. He puts a rapid end to games that could have otherwise gone either way. And he's tough on a lot of control decks that would have inevitablilty on this deck without him.


And btw, your avatar freaks me out.

I can see how Horori would be good against Thresh, but I don't see how good it could be against combo decks and that seems to be the decks weakness from looking at it and not playing it. Control seems to have taken a back seat for a bit so I'm not real worried about that. Half the time you can outplay them anyway since better players usually aren't messing with it anyway given the current meta overall and even moreso here where I am.

I just think the slot could be put to better use. Though like I said I haven't tried it, but will do so first before making a total judgement on him.


And what's wrong with Kitty Bagel? I think he's cute. Almost as good as his brother Kitty bread. I think all of the breads and cereals group should be made from felines.

[BiscuitVader]

Finn, I like the list you posted. I played a few MWS games with it, the only change being going down to three silver knights, and up to four jotun grunt.

The goblins matchup went up, IMO. And the loss of tangle wire made the thresh go down, but it was still winable.

While the game against combo did go up, its still not perfect. I'm starting to think we are going to need to splash a color. Are there any cool ledgends in (black) another color we could run?

Hopefully the color we add will give us a better way to draw cards, because top is nice, but it is mana hungry. I think we need something else.