Again not concerned about someone playing a 3 mana loses to Stifle, Dress Down, REB + dies to Bolt/Lavamancer. You can't counter a strategy by playing into countless cards guaranteed to be in the deck which perfectly obliterate the "counter".Originally Posted by FTW
In your assessment you're going too all-in on the idea of comboing 1-shotting. This 1R 3/2 is just Price of Progress magus vs any opponent regardless of land status/strategy.
Broke: scam elementals
Woke: torpor orb elementals
Maybe not, orb doesn't play well with the new guy.
I'm thinking (hopping) there's a new illusionary mask/scroll of fate card in the set/commander set
What's wrong with Orb? Orb plays well with it. Much better than Dress Down.
Orb plays badly with Elementals though.
Orb plays fine with elementals, and protects assist fury and solitude, and if you're already in red keys you pay your own fury as 3/3 double strike for zero.
The reason not to pay orb here is because the new guy triggers on flios, and you don't flip on orb.
Mask and scroll, but have no symmetrical defense
Orb does no flipping, but stops sfm, Bowmasters, and any number of creatures being played for value
Here's a 4 cost scroll of fate user, choosing to pump the face-down team, or cloak a Dreadnought
Counterpoint: you played a dude and it instantly ate removal. It's never putting a Dreadnought in face-down. Also red blast, also costs 4 mana with 2 color pips.
Here's a 4 cost scroll of fate user, choosing to pump the face-down team, or cloak a Dreadnought
Scroll of Fate, since the moment it was spoiled. It has been best in slot for the entirety of it's existence for reproducible Nought enablers. Also it stays in play after a wrath.
Yeah you're easily at Scroll #4 before the 1st Vannifar.
Orb doesn't stop flipping or the trigger. You could still manifest with Scroll & flip.
Orb plays badly with Elementals: you lose the ETB trigger. Scam gives both the body & trigger. Scam is better.
0-mana & 2 cards for a 3/2 menace, 3/2 lifelink, or 3/3 flyer seems bad. Opponent has forever to 2-for-1 them with 1-mana removal. Just play DRC.
Fury is better at 3/3 double strike. But Fury+Orb is worse than Fury+Stifle, Fury+Slip, or Fury+Reanimate. Why lose the free Pyrokinesis? Stifle & scam elementals beat Orb.
Because you're in mono red and don't have access to any of those except maybe sundial if the infinite
You know, the whole premise we're talking about?
Yeah uh you are not finding success without blue in a Dreadnought deck. It doesn't matter how hard you can go on the 12/12 plan, you actually have to interact in this format.
But don't take my word for it, look at all the successes of Ancient Tomb Nought and Hunted Horror Nought and ShadowNought over the last 20 years. Big yikes!
Torpor Orb is a particularly poor choice as it does nothing in multiples. That's only the start though - they have this deck called Reanimator and not-Reanimator decks with Grief, among other discard effects....they also play Reanimate. Better hope you have a really good plan for beating 12/12s...
I watched Tony Scapone's latest Challenge Top 8 vid (with combo of course). In one round he faced a Torpor Orb Dreadnought deck. Tony cast Phyrexian Metamorph to make his own 12/12. Tony's deck had more artifact copy effects, so the Dreadnought deck was forced to suicide its 12/12 into the other to prevent Tony out-12/12ing them. Then it had no real game plan... any future 12/12s would get copied. Orb really backfired.
Orb doesn't play well with elememtals. If that's the only option in monored, the answer is don't be monored. Stifle & Dress Down are so much better.
TombNought might be viable now due to the Manifest strategy getting better. Easier to Disguise, power out Scroll of Fate, or make Saga constructs. There's also Lorien Revealed to fix colors from colorless. These synergies weren't available most of the last 20 years. There are more synergistic uses for Ancient Tomb now.
Ok, just brewing here... Say you did want to go MonoR.
Key considerations:
-No multiple Torpor Orbs
-Need multiple ways to get value out of Dreadnoughts
-Need ways to count to 20 when Dreadnought removed or combat step ended
-Card filtering to reduce variance of drawing too many Dreadnoughts when you don't want them
Instead of jamming 8x colorless Dreadnought enabler and ending up with a linear Tier 3 deck that can't do anything else, let's do something different.
So what if you have Dreadnought but no enabler? Instead of forcing out 12/12s, what if you can take advantage of the fact that Dreadnought is a 1-mana spell to convert it into:
-another card (activate Goblin Engineer in response to trigger)
-Lightning Bolt (postcombat play & sac to Broadside Bombardiers)
-4xBolt (Pandemonium lol)
Creatures like Vexing Devil and Slumbering Dragon also sound funny to Manifest with Scroll and then unmorph with Pyrotechnic out, but the failcase is very bad if disrupted.
Mono Red Draft
//Creatures: 21
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Goblin Engineer
4 Pyrotechnic Performer
4 Broadside Bombardiers
1 Phyrexian Dragon Engine
4 Fury
//Spells: 4
4 Lightning Bolt
//Artifacts: 7
1 Currency Converter
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
1 Torpor Orb
4 Scroll of Fate
//Enchantments: 5
4 Fable of the Mirror-Breaker
1 Pandemonium
//Lands: 20
4 Urza's Saga
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Shatterskull Smashing
7 Mountain
1 Great Furnace
Overall there are a lot of ways to make Dreadnought not a dead card:
Torpor Orb
Manifest with Scroll
Engineer fodder
Loot with Fable/Converter
Sacrifice to Broadside
12-shot with Pandemonium
Copy with Kiki-Jiki & sac one to the other
Goblin Engineer tutors Torpor Orb (only need to run 1 copy) or Scroll of Fate. It can then turn some artifact (even Fable's treasure token) into that. It can also get Dragon Engine to draw cards.
There are a few slots left. A natural morph creature with cheap unmorph cost seems good, working with Scroll & the Pyrotechnic.
Time to bring back Gathan Raiders? Raiders does 7 with Bombardiers and 5 with Pyrotechnic (for 0 mana)
Horde Ambusher is also a free unmorph and combat trick
Ire Shaman unmorphs as 3/2 Menace for R (Bolt with Pyrotechnic) and draws a card
The other option would be to play more artifact creatures to synergize with Saga & Engineer. Or maybe Aether Vial (which can combo out Dreadnought, pitch to Engineer, or build up to play Fury).
Is there anything remotely viable in this design space?
@FTW - There's a lot of problems with that deck and the failure to interact. Combo is going to sculpt hand, cast all their spells, and win before you can get there with damage. Removal-based decks are going to remove your guys, and they will preferentially counterspell Scroll of Fate and Kiki-Saga. These removal-based players will likely not understand why that counter-strategy works, but the reason is that you don't play Fetchlands, and the land flooding will kill you if they preferentially target the only cards that help you not flood out on lands. The other type of deck you're going to run into issues against is MurkGoyf, because you didn't get an 8/8 when you payed 2 mana and you're detonating your own life total with Tomb and ETB untapped Shatterskull - they can basically ignore you and win while you're consistently in the setting-up phase.
Torpor Orb and Pandemonium is an anti-combo.
Acknowledging that your deck can't interact and instead focus on going even faster can be a viable strategy (TES, Oops, etc)...but Ancient Tomb isn't doing anything for you on turn 1. That's a problem. You've got mana acceleration, and absolutely no followup with that 2 mana. God help you if you slam that turn 1 Ancient Tomb, make no play, and then get tagged by Wasteland. You're skipping turn 1 anyways, so why isn't Tomb a basic Mountain?
^ofc the reason you don't remove Ancient Tomb is that the plays on 2 mana may exist, but they don't move the advantage bar; at best it's -1 turn to do some setup.
So your opening hands are coming from a deck with 16 lands you can play on turn 1, and 4x Ancient Tombs which will cause you to lose on the spot if they're the first land played vs hostile Wasteland. Of those 16 lands, 100% of them will not produce a meaningful turn 1 play pattern. Furthermore, of those 16 lands, you have a >50% chance to be a Wasteland target....so that even if they Waste the not-Tomb, and land 2 is a Tomb, then you still don't have a meaningful play (see above paragraph).
Okay so we can't make plays with a Tomb, and most of the time (>50%) a hostile Wasteland will delay your first meaningful 3cmc play...except that this requires your opening hand to have land you can lead with #1 -> if Waste'd land you can lead with #2 -> and Ancient Tomb. Let's check out the hypergeometric calculator on this one (and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't in a situation of colored cards in hand with access to only colorless mana): 42.9% to see 3 or more lands in an opening hand. That's so bad.
...and if they don't have Wasteland, you have to get to 3 mana the hard way - don't worry, I'll ignore Saga dying and having to use Saga's mana to play your 3 mana cards rather than making constructs. Now you have a deck with a 42.9% chance of having those 3 lands. The odds of Tomb in an opening hand (to lower land requirement vs not-Wasteland decks to 2 lands in opening hand) only ever going to be 39.9%.
There's no point to playing a deck like this. Player skill is meaningless when your own deck is burying you with variance.
Good points.
You can make Tomb faster and better by running SSG and/or Mox, enabling more turn 1 plays instead of just setup: Scroll, Fable, morph. But it's still weak to Wasteland blowouts.
Could also run basics over Shatterskull, but then there's the land flood issue.
Orb is a nonbo with Fury and Dragon Engine too, but as a 1-of it should be easy to loot away or Weld away when it's bad. Though opponents may strategically counter the pieces that enable that.
Overall you're right, it's just a lot of ways to cheese damage but no way to interact beyond burn. Could run Magus of the Moon main and some SB artifact singletons (Saga & Engineer tutor) but it's very minimal interaction.
It's not. Stop saying this
It kind of is. The case for aggro-pitch Fury + avoid the sacrifice is pretty narrow. You need to be up against a deck with pretty much no removal, and you also have to feel at enough of a disadvantage to discard half your hand to race.
For a good time, watch people with Dreadnought decks & Fury in sideboard consistently fail to bring it in vs Doomsday. Let's map this one out together:
-Turn 1 you're appropriately playing Dreadnought with blue cards, so you can aggro out a Fury. pass the turn*
-Opponent heavily favored to lose 1 life (Fetchlands outnumber their hard black sources) -> 19 life
-Turn 2 -> you're at 13
-Opponent casts Doomsday -> 6 life. Better win on turn 2 opponent, you're DOB. Hmm...Aggro Fury kinda seems strictly correct in this m/u, also it can trade with a SB Sheoldred "juke".
*if opponent can go off on turn 1: 19 life -> 9, and it is highly unlikely that they can also make Thassa that turn. So Fury takes them down to 3 -> uh oh, we play Bolt and/or good luck with cycling those Street Wraiths mate.
---
The list of decks you're not winning against with the aggro-Fury include:
- Elves/dude combos: you have to wait for them to go off a little first, wipe their board, and then make Fury stick. (so not Torpor Orb)
- Ancient Tomb dude decks: like the Elves-types you need let them play some dudes, get blown out by trigger, and then die to effective 6/3 (again, don't want that Torpor Orb)
- Non-removal-based, non-Tomb dude decks (random stuff like Goblins): they're going to successfully chump things without keyword trample, and beat your 3 card hand. Also, you need to let them play some dudes, get blown out by trigger, then turn Fury sideways.
- Removal-based decks: you aren't winning by nuking your opening hand down to 3 (-1 land, -1 Fury, -1 pitch, -1 card to make Fury stick)
- Half-removal/half-dude combo (so like Breakfast)
- Maze of Ith
- Depths with Removal (GW)
- Delver (Bolt)
- Grief with Reanimate: thanks for playing Torpor, I'm taking your 12/12.
- Oops: doesn't matter if Fury can clock them, they lost to anything that looks like Stifle/Torpor/Dress Down. A stiff breeze would be winmore.
Some places it might work against:
-SnT
-non-removal Depths (Turbo)
Some places you do want to aggro-Fury:
-Doomsday
-Ichorid, subset manaless and LED Dredge (for dual land type, see Elves-type above)
So let's just tally this up and think about all the tier 1 decks as one block of legacy, and recognize it's a really bad play against all of them unless they're called Doomsday, and questionable if they're called SnT.
Edit: if we're trying to apply this idea that aggro-Fury is good in a list like @FTW made, remember that you're mulling almost 2 of every 3 hands, as built, due to insufficient lands in opener.
Ok, 2 cards for a 0-mana 3/3 double strike is decent. Hope opponent doesnt have Bolt. Sometimes it races.
But what if you WANT Fury for the removal instead of the body? With Orb you don't get a choice. Only 3/3.
Dress Down+Fury: choose either 4 damage or 3/3 body
Stifle/Slip + Fury: both 4 damage AND 3/3 body
Reanimate + Fury: 8 damage & 3/3 body
Orb + Fury: only 3/3 body
Orb's the worst Fury enabler. And makes casting for 3RR bad.
Orb's better with Hunted Horror at least (except for racing Doomsday). Maybe you could try some RB deck with Dreadnought, Scroll, Pyrotechnic, Horror, Kroxa.. Scroll cheats them out and they all unmorph well with Pyrotechnic.
Yes zero mana 3/3 double strike with hexproof from solitude and fury are "good" and if you don't think they are, reassess your approach to card evaluation
Are you confusing cards with something that has pro-white?
Decks with Solitude are not the beatdown, the Fury player has to play into Solitude as response.
Edit: nvm you're saying Torpor in play. The issue there is lifelink. Both players are taking 3 per turn.
0 mana but 2-cards (3 including Orb).
2-for-1d by common cheap answers like
Lightning Bolt
Daze
Swords to Plowshares
Leyline Binding
Hydroblast
Blue Elemental Blast
Sheoldred's Edict
Molten Collapse
Brazen Borrower
Aether Spellbomb
Chain Lightning
Unholy Heat
Murderous Cut
3/3 double strike is dangerous unstopped... but dies in combat to 3/4 or bigger: flash 0-mana Endurance, Uro (Torpor Orb enabled), Murktide, Questing Druid, Saga constructs, Tarmogoyf, Hooting Mandrills, etc.
With Fury on stack, opponent could also disrupt with disenchant effect on Torpor. If opponent has no creatures to burn, that disenchant is a 3-for-1.
This kind of play seems good goldfishing but is easily punished. Why not play Brute Force? 1-mana 6/6 double strike!! But it costs too many cards, blown out by answers.
In comparison, Hunted Horror+Orb is better for pure beatdown (doesn't die to most of those removal or blockers, doesn't get 2-for-1d, faster clock). Still hexproof from Solitudes.
Last edited by FTW; 01-19-2024 at 05:19 PM.
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