So which is it:
Is it a nonbo, or is it a plan you don't like?
Please make up your mind.
It's a play that AggroLoam's your hand down to 3 cards on turn 1. When it fails to win the game, you are not going to catch up. Just circling the drain, playing a game that's already lost.Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit
It's a nonbo. Orb forces you to lose several good modes of Fury even when you want them.
If spending multiple cards on turn 1 3/3 double strike is a plan you like, the good combos are: Stifle, Reanimate, Slip Out The Back, Ephemerate. Those make the 3/3 without impairing Fury's other modes (the nonbo part).
Stop.
Please.
You asked me to pick between two choices. I'm not allowed to answer picking one?
Reanimate/Stifle + Fury is a combo.
Torpor makes Fury lose good abilties.
If you don't want to take my word, look at results. Scam Elementals has many Top8s. Where are the Torpor Orb Elementals?
You're arguing with someone who thinks 3-for-1'ing yourself magically becomes viable because 3-for-1 is better than 2-for-1'ing Noughts into 1 mana kill spells.
You were supposed to make the right choice and instead chose the dumb one. Because you made the bad choice I'm telling you to stop.
Cards that create a zero mana 3/3 double strike is a combo, end of fucking story.
I expect dipshit answers from Fox, but I expected better from you.
See? Here he goes again
I didn't say any of this, dipshit
Guess I'm arguing merits of modal abilities and card advantage with someone who just wants fast beatdown.
Who cares about lost abilities if it's a 3/3 double strike?
... in a format where the bar for beatdown combo is:
12/12 trample
20/20 flying indestructible
6/5 super menace
7/7 flying lifelink draw 7
15/15 flying protection annihilate 6
That's what you get in Legacy for spending more than 1 card.
For 1 card, the bar for vanilla beatdown is set by Murktide Regent/Tarmogoyf. It's been like that since Goyf came out.
Legacy's full of smaller creatures... but its their abilities that make them relevant. Fury's much worse forced to lose its damage ability.
And you don't even NEED to lose the damage ability. Scam combos give both the 3/3 double strike and the damage.
Nonbos are when you make your own card worse, when you don't need to.
Last edited by FTW; 01-20-2024 at 01:50 AM.
Making six power for zero mana is better than making it for five mana, hope this helps
Where are the Torpor Orb Elementals top 8s?
Now how many top 8s has Fury made without Orb?
Burn 4 is better than burn 0, hope this helps.
Including Torpor, it's 2 mana and 3 cards total.
Is Bushi Tenderfoot+Mutagenic Growth+Prey Upon a "combo"? (That's much better too)
1 mana & 3 cards makes 6-power AND burn 4:
Fury + red card+ Stifle
Torpor does a worse imitation and stops your burn.
The funny thing is that you did say this, you're just not running the scenarios and counting the cards. Let's explore your idea, and give you a <50% odds opening hand you don't obligatorily have to mull:
-play Tomb, down to 6 cards
-play Torpor, down to 5
-burn hand down to 3 to make a Fury
Incoming hostile plays that result in you losing:
-FoW Fury, Wasteland to stone age
-Wasteland to stone age, take a hit for 6, deal with Fury next turn with 1 mana kill spell
-FoW Fury (5 card hand heavily favored over hand of 3)
-land into 1 mana kill spell
Now I get it, you're excited about this Torpor Orb that gets worse in multiples and lets discard decks with Reanimate beat you with your own cards. You're excited b/c Torpor is in play and somehow the last 3 cards in your hand will be more threats than the opponent can handle + extra mana for when they have Wasteland. You're excited b/c somehow their deck will always be crippled by the Torpor passive, and they won't do something like tap 3 for Uro.
^Unfortunately that's not how legacy or variance works...and you still have to stop people from completing a combo in less than 4 attacks. Even if you had blue in the deck, you'd be too low on hand size to win on the stack.
Like if every deck you faced had Thassa, you'd be fine...but the vast majority of decks would be very hard to beat with these aggro-Fury tactics. The thing about Fury is that outside of this scenario would pretty much require the opponent to lose at least 2 cards to the Fury trigger to recoup card parity - and this is what @FTW is also pointing out: you can't recoup that parity if you Torpor'd yourself out of the comeback game.
You need to sit down and watch people play AggroLoam and look and what's left in their hand at the end of their first turn, after they self-Mind Twist with Mox hands. Those 3 cards left in their hand are going to be conspicuously similar to what your deck idea would have left over to follow up with. It's not much, and you won't have the mana safety of a Mox in play.
I didn't, dipshit
DYK the presence of other, better combos doesn't make a different combination of cards a combo?
Here's what I actually said, that I didn't want to play orb.
Ok, I get it, this is over the term "nonbo" vs a worse combo.
You agree it's worse than Scam. You agree it's a strategic blowout. You just think it's not a "nonbo" because it makes the 3/3.
The nonbo happens midgame. You already played Orb + Dreadnought/Fury. Opponent killed it. Later you draw Fury. You want to kill opponent's creatures because that's more relevant than racing from behind. But you can't. Orb stops you. That's the nonbo.
Or you topdeck Fury when you have 3RR but no red card... and Orb only makes Fury worse. Nonbo.
Or you have Fury and Reflection of Kiki-Jiki, but can't copy for damage. Nonbo.
Orb stops Fury from doing useful things. The other combos don't.
Your own card backfiring on another -> nonbo
Scam Fury never has that problem. It's not just a better combo. It also lacks the nonbo part.
It's really that simple.
Evoke+orb=combo
See above.
With Orb already in play from earlier turn:
Orb + Fury when you need Pyrokinesis more than a 6/3 = nonbo
Orb + Fury + no red card but 3RR = nonbo (Orb made Fury worse)
Orb backfires on Fury. Burn 0 is worse than Burn 4.
Scam & Stifle don't backfire, no nonbo.
Love the enthusiasm, but you can't look at red stompy shells and see Fury being a functional maindeck card and make it equally viable in Dreadnought w/ Torpor.
-can't represent repeatable mini-wraths with Kikki-Saga
-can't put Fury without text under a Mox
-can't get to 3 mana as easily as red stompy
-can't constrict opponent's plays with Tomb mana (Chalice-types)
-you don't really have much going on with 1 or 2 points of mana
-red stompy exclusively exclusively1-card combos alongside Fury, with the exception of Chrome Mox which requires a second card (but this counts for mana)
At some point you need to be able to recognize that "I am not doing the same things with the same tools. Ergo how their cards work and compete cannot be borrowed at 100% efficacy."
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So your plan is to obliterate your opening hand to 3, just like AggroLoam...except your Mox Diamond'y mana boost [Tomb] gets killed by Wasteland...but unlike AggroLoam, you haven't come to terms with the reality that you need to rebuild your hand size (which will be hard b/c you're not able to play the game effectively until 3 mana...which means you need most of the cards left in your hand to be lands, rather than action).
^although @FTW isn't spelling this above scenario out for you, they keep correctly pointing out that you need access to the deal 4 trigger (because it's the only way you'll ever dig yourself out of the 3 card hand hole you dug yourself into). It's almost like there's a reason Tomb + Nought has never worked, ever.
Repeating the same broke-brained take of "yeah, but what if they have the answer to my combo" doesn't make it not a combo. It's utterly unhinged you're arguing with me on this. My God.
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