I didn't pla in that era and was still cashing scgs in 2013. I loved just spamming Dreadnoughts and eaters with force/daze/misdirection backupOriginally Posted by FTW
When we talk about the pure Volcanic family of decks with novel endpoints and achieving that endpoints better than any other approach and able to compete, you're down to 2 things:
-SnT (Tomb)
-Dreadstill
-while we might be tempted to list UR Delver, it will always suffer from a better Delver deck on different colors (i.e. not a valid endpoint deck)
So the question is always whether or not deviating will increase winrate. One of the biggest issues in pure Volc is that it's the single worst color set in the game at lifegain and trustworthy removal. The Tomb constantly dome'ing the life total requires resets (annihilator 6, draw 7, lifelink/value etb) +/- winning on the spot. You do not have time to derp around with poor color access while blasting your lifetotal with TombNought. There is utility in watching how many turns SnT can stay in a game, and figuring out what you could realistically accomplish with Nought with similar mana builds featuring Tomb in that time (your ability to interact and extend the game won't be much better).
While you may be able to power out a Scroll or Karn quicker, you don't have a game plan before that to fall back on, and it's not like you win b/c these resolved. During this time your mana total is exposed to Wasteland, and it's easier to run into color screw.
You play a few games with it and then start adding the bad cards like Shadowspear as you chase down Saga for win% and eventually ask why you haven't cut the Noughts and become 8cast for bigger better constructs. This lesson is learned rapidly when you keep failing to navigate a deck with 4x Saga 4x Dress Down fighting eachother. It's an expensive journey for those who don't already have the cards.
As compared to non-Tomb Volcanic, you can't use DRC and you won't have their consistent plan of adding on damage. The terrible access to lifegain and interaction of UR is offset by the proactive pressure exerted. After an aggressive early game, the opponent is being attacked by by mechanics they cannot build against (if they want to be able to compete with the meta). We get to mid & late game and start shuffling things around with Scroll's guessing game, Mycosynth tricks, Converters, and Otawaras.
^While Dreadstill trades up on variance for this increased power, opponents generally find themselves in a really bad situation where I'm deliberately targeting stationary targets (netdecks and their SBs) while they are playing boring old 1-for-1 magic using the only lines their linear cards allow.
It would only benefit my opponent if I cut all my lines of play to power out linear cards the opponent is pre-built to answer. Tomb is one of the highest variance cards in the format, and although it's easier to mana fix with colorless landcycling and Vista, the Tomb will always prevent adequate incorporation of coherent 1-2cmc plans. Can't be getting Wasted off 3 mana and losing Sagas to suicide while protecting a compromised life total while slow-playing 1 mana lands for the next two turns.
The fourth white torpor orb creature has arrived
https://mythicspoiler.com/mkm/cards/...perthrull.html
This one has flash and stops artifact etbs too.
Which I think covers Kappa Cannon but I can't think of anything that that triggers on artifacts
Stops protection from One Ring and Living Weapon off Kaldra/Batterskull
Those were the big hits I found
Always start with the mana. Chrome Mox.
Ok, very strong point.
Show and Tell is a much more winning card than Scroll/Karn/Morph/Mask/Torpor. The risk/reward tradeoff for the Tomb lifeloss is much worse than for SneakShow.
In RB there aren't the same tier decks to compete against, there's better removal to bail you out (2B board resets, Molten Collapse), Exsanguinator Cavalry could be playable lifegain for Tomb decks, and there's Troll to fix mana. Could the strategy be viable in RB?
RW of course has the best removal and lifegain, Forth Eorlingas, Timeless Dragon, and Fable (all good uses for Tomb that recoup card advantage or smooth variance). Now this improved Hushbringer creature too. It would be competing against Initiative though. Turn 1 Dungeoneer might be better than Turn 1 Dreadnought.
Flash is big because it adds
1W - If an opponent would win the game from empty library, instead that player loses the game.
Hushbringer and Torpor Orb don't have that because they won't go to empty library with one in play, but flash can catch them off guard.
I guess with flash it can do the full stifle, combined with gladriels dismissal and do you have a dread and taxes deck?
But I never claimed Tier 1 status; you claimed UR Dreadstill was Tier 1. Much stronger claim. Should be more results.
2010 had results, but 2011 Dreadstill had just 2 small event top 8s pre-Misstep and 0 after. On par with fringe brews like Quest for the Holy Relic. That's not Tier 1 anymore.
There weren't opposing 12/12s to fight. Lack of results wasn't an accident. Stifle+Dreadnought waned because Mental Misstep on Stifle is a 0-mana 2-for-1. Most decks had 4 copies and can play it tapped out. Must be a nightmare to play around. Misstep also prevents curving a proactive 1cmc into T2 Standstill. Misstep also kept combo numbers low, removing your easiest prey.
The tier fatty was Progenitus.
UWx Landstill was already Tier 1 long before that or Snapcaster. Landstill lost players to Dreadstill around 2009-2010. Maybe some came back in 2011 before Miracles.
I was not in the Dreadstill community or a Dreadstill player, but played MaskNought in the Misstep era. I saw others on the deck too, whether with Tomb or in BG. Clearly people discovered Mask changing cmcs was good in that meta. There are no videos of smaller events and most didn't report results to MtgTop8.
Maybe it was SCG Baltimore coverage that clued players into the tech. If there was a feature video, SCG probably had an article on it. Maybe a brew by Patrick Chapin. That may be where I got the idea from, or from a local player who got it from there. Others would have been inspired by that content too. There might be an archive of past SCG articles...
Edit: Discussion on TheSource as far back as 2010, including correct understanding of CMC rules: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...an-Dreadnought
UB MaskNought by Patrick Chapin in 2010: https://articles.starcitygames.com/a...vations-sixty/
Chapin "the Innovator" was the most influential brewer in that era, so if he tried it then many others followed
Kerrigan (the kid in the video) wrote a StarCityGames article on BG MaskNought after his SCG Baltimore feature match, including CMC-dodging Misstep: https://articles.starcitygames.com/a...orb-in-legacy/
BG MaskNought Top 8 SCG Seattle Jul 26th 2011: https://www.channelfireball.com/magi...ary-Orb/279801
MTGSalvation has 2011 threads on Mono B, BW, and UB Phyrexian Dreadnought + Illusionary Mask
ManaDrain and StarcityGames have many articles on Vintage MaskNought back in 2003, which was competitive enough to cause the original ban.
Articles and forums were a more mass-consumed content than YouTube videos back then. Players were aware of the tech from popular platforms. You're looking in the wrong place.
Last edited by FTW; 01-23-2024 at 02:23 AM.
Dreadstill was winning >200 player events in 2010, to include the end of the year. A month before the unban in June 2010 you have Dreadstill at #2 of 498 players. So in the time period we're discussing from 2010 to Feb 2011 (New Phyrexia release), you're not making a TombNought deck b/c you can only achieve a 39.9% chance of a Nought enabler in your opening hand (4x Mask) with a colorless deck and you had visible success by others with the card Dreadnought tells you to stop what you're doing and copy them. Along comes Feb 2012 and a Tomb deck can go from 39.9% odds of enabler to 65.4% (and importantly 23.2% chance of second copy of enabler in opening hand).
The problem however is that you're not out of the woods and safe from running into other Dreadnought decks (they were posting results in November, before the annual event slow-down over the holidays). You play Torpor Orb and donate the Stifle-effect to hostile 12/12 decks and you will lose, badly. So supposedly we're making this TombNought deck to compete, at a time when we would still be pretty concerned about seeing hostile 12/12s at top tables. You can experience just how polarizing this problem, even today, if you've got an LGS with a resident Dreadnought player and someone tries to play mono-white TorporNought - they're done ever trying that after 1 week; it's one of the absolute worst losses possible in legacy b/c it's so incredibly hopeless when you've basically got two decks playing against you. That type of savage beating gets even worse if you were restricted to colorless.
It's not just the threat of Dreadstill continuing the trend of 2010 and top8'ing multiple hundred person events, it's also still being talked about pretty heavily on this forum (it's still being played). As you state, articles and forums at that time were mass-consumed. We're talking pages ~110 to ~130 of discussion between the Mask unban and Feb 2011, and we're up to ~page 155 by the end of clown legacy where Misstep is banned. There's basically no discussion of Tomb + Nought on the source. Threads: TorporNought (NPH) 4/2011 is 2 pages, TorporNought & All In Torpor Orb 7/2011 combine for 2 pages. There's like no discussion of this Tomb + Nought stuff.
Thank you for digging up the Seattle event in 2011. UR Dreadnought top8s that one, but more importantly in the top16 we see not-TombNought - it's BG again. This is the point I've been making: it's never been TombNought.
The legacy algorithm reigns supreme:
-When we say I want to make Dreadnought the first task is to choose which of the 4 types (or blends) of legacy deck we want to be: Fetchlands or Loam/Mox or Cavern/Vial or Sol land/Chalice. This is the exhaustive list of what you can do in legacy at any point (unless you want to meme with Burn, monoB Reanimator, manaless Dredge, or Oops).
-When you say "I choose the Tomb pathway" we ask if you're blending with Fetchlands (the SnT model we just discussed). When the answer to that question is no, then you're saying "I want to be Stompy."
-Having further classified that you are Tomb subset Stompy, we identify the legacy checklist of Stompy:
#1 Getting to 3 mana is important: we all play Chrome Mox, and most follow that with Guides +/- Lotus Petal
#2 Getting to 3 mana is important: we will play 4+2 Sol Lands (though you can drop to just Tomb if the cmcs downshift like in 8cast/affinity)
#3 Doing something that constricts/pressures opponent on 2 mana is important
^The algorithm is stable over time. You can't do Dreadnought stuff and also complete the Stompy checklist in 2011 or 2024. Staying heavy on 3 mana plans while not playing City of Traitors, so that you can add a suicidal playset of Saga isn't doing you any favors. Whether we talk about 2011 or 2024, we see nothing going on to keep you in the game on 1-2 mana in a deck increasingly self-condemned to this mana point...and we know from SnT that you have maybe 6 turns until dead in this format.
The last thing I'll say on this 2011 stuff is that Fetchland + Nought is what was going on. It was not TombNought. It was never TombNought. It will never be TombNought until they can complete the checklist.
https://mythicspoiler.com/mkm/cards/...ofthegods.htmlYarus, Roar of the Gods
2RG
Legendary Creature - Centaur Druid
Other creatures you control have haste.
Whenever one or more face-down creatures you control deal combat damage to a player, draw a card.
Whenever a face-down creature you control dies, return it to the battlefield face-down under its owner's control if it's a permanent card. Then turn it face-up.
So: an insurance policy with face-downs, let's your scrolls draw some cards(maybe) while also giving bodies.
And everything gets haste (except itself)
Costs a much as a Minsc and boo
No, not the time period we're discussing. I've consistently said the 2011 Misstep era (after NPH). Not late 2010 after the unban. Part of that was because Stifle+Dreadnought was bad vs Misstep, also mentioned above.
You keep arguing with strawmen. Instead of wasting text on that, please quote me where I'm even making these claims you're arguing against (that TombNought was good in 2010, that Mask was good in Legacy before Misstep, that TombNought was Tier 1 ever, that Misstep era indicates lasting success beyond that). You make it look like I'm back-peddling. But I never made these claims. It's getting exhausting and ridiculous.
Either quote my claims before you counter or stop saying I'm claiming these things.
That UR list ran only 1 Dreadnought and 0 Standstill: https://www.channelfireball.com/magi...lenought/84588
Yes, looks like only BG MaskNought made it to top tables at SCG 5Ks. Other versions got discussed on other forums & sites, played at smaller events, and saw play online. 4Dogs claimed to cash at SCGs with his build.
You're arguing with so many strawmen. Go back and check what I actually said before about TombNought. It's not what you've been arguing against.
On the other hand, you did make outrageous claims like that no one discovered how Mask worked or considered it for CMC-changing before Khans. Or that UR Dreadstill was Tier 1 when MaskNought saw play. I proved those untrue.
The Tomb/City + Nought strategy was a natural extension of seeing that Mask+Nought was effective in that meta and that blue stompy skipping 1cmc was effective in that meta (Hive Mind). Both had results you can find. Both features were quirks of the meta, which is why I've mentioned only the Misstep era. Colorless acceleration into Mask+Nought was tech in the old Vintage MaskNought, so that idea had already seen competitive play. You could play both Tomb and City in monocolor and you could play proactive 2cmc disruption. The Misstep format was slower: Misstep drove out fast combo and aggro, so maybe there was less penalty for taking that Tomb lifeloss. The DTBs were Uxx midrange, not Delver or aggro.
I did not claim the Tomb version saw widespread competitive play or made sense outside the Misstep era (quote me otherwise). My strongest claim was that it had a good winrate in that meta, playing around what the meta was doing.
For 2024 the checklist could be met by playing spirit guides/Mox, 2 City, and proactive 2 mana plays. RW Initiative is Tier 1 and has no 2cmc disruption. Red Stompy sometimes doesn't run Chalice main. We are seeing an uptick of Tier 1 Stompy with few basics and lacking 2 mana disruption.
Last edited by FTW; 01-23-2024 at 11:04 AM.
It's pretty annoying looking up the release date of new phyrexia, I think it was May 2011 upon further review? They keep spamming February in these searches b/c of the All is One set... Anyways Dreadnought is still seeing play off the back of its end of year large event 2010 finishes. It's still showing up on top8 moving into Misstep clown format. So I do see what you're saying about size of events, but you're still in a legacy format that hasn't had a format-warping printing (like Snapcaster) - obviously Misstep was warping. It's just Goyf/CB running rampant the whole time, and people are still playing Nought. That's the point I'm making; at this time you will encounter Dreadnought routinely. It may not be as common as Merfolk or NO Bant, but it would not have been unexpected.No, not the time period we're discussing. I've consistently said the 2011 Misstep era (after NPH). Not late 2010 after the unban. Part of that was because Stifle+Dreadnought was bad vs Misstep, also mentioned above.
You keep arguing with strawmen. Instead of wasting text on that, please quote me where I'm even making these claims you're arguing against (that TombNought was good in 2010, that Mask was good in Legacy before Misstep, that TombNought was Tier 1 ever, that Misstep era indicates lasting success beyond that). You make it look like I'm back-peddling. But I never made these claims. It's getting exhausting and ridiculous.
Either quote my claims before you counter or stop saying I'm claiming these things.
You had to plan accordingly - this is particularly important if your big idea is to enable hostile Noughts with your newly-released Torpor Orb. I think the closest analogy is playing SnT when you have a very high expectation of running into hostile Aluren. Brazenly turning on enemy decks is a really dangerous and careless design space, particularly for a Tomb deck that cannot effectively answer such problems when they inevitably arise.
The biggest determinant of whether or not something is Dreadnought is the presence of Dreadnought. Lavamancer, Trinket Mage, SDT, EE, selecting away from Ponder, and the ability to goldfish Stifle (i.e. Dreadnought) are pretty common tropes that occur together Nought decks at the time. There are a lot of issues with the construction, where we don't see Wasteland & Daze supporting Stifle...but that is explained by renaming the CA engine from Standstill to JTMS. It's more Dreadnought than blue soup midrange (like Blade). It's vastly more Dreadnought than RUG Thresh/pre-Delver. You wouldn't call it Blue Moon, but it would be kind of close if we took out Nought/Stifle. It's a Dreadnought list that has UR's trashy removal, which it offsets with aggressively counting to 20 (Lavamancer, Fire//Ice, Bolts) - which is the same concept we use to offset the trashy removal in 2024.That UR list ran only 1 Dreadnought and 0 Standstill: https://www.channelfireball.com/magi...lenought/84588
Although it did top8, it's basically starting with a Blade deck -> abandoning white -> adding Nought stuff b/c it's cool I guess? Although it worked in this event, it was not good hybrid deckbuilding, but it was more StifleNought than anything else. That's a pretty fair deckname they labeled it with, even with one Dreadnought.
Right, but it wasn't TombNought. The logical progression from Dreadnought decks doing well before Misstep is not jumping straight to Tomb. You stay with what works (Fetchlands), and add Mask.Yes, looks like only BG MaskNought made it to top tables at SCG 5Ks. Other versions got discussed on other forums & sites, played at smaller events, and saw play online. 4Dogs claimed to cash at SCGs with his build.
^The list you put forward for red/Tomb Pyrotechnic Performer + Dreadnought has the same problems as a 2011 TombNought. We've discussed the mana issues and moving the advantage bar at 1 & 2 mana points...but on top of that, you're talking about doing this at a time when there has never been a higher chance of running into and turning on a hostile 12/12 strategy.
You've misread. The point I make is that it's a big step to claim TombNought has ever been something we could point to as anything other than a flash in the pan or noncompetitive meme. Now despite the exceedingly poor understanding of Mask at that time, the point to take away is that you take Dreadnought with Fetchlands and add Mask to beat Misstep long before you would ever drop everything you knew that worked (see top8 finishes) to dabble with TombNought, because Mask solved the Misstep's cmc puzzle all by itself.On the other hand, you did make outrageous claims like that no one discovered how Mask worked or considered it for CMC-changing before Khans. Or that UR Dreadstill was Tier 1 when MaskNought saw play. I proved those untrue.
^As a Dreadstill player, there is no excuse for the paucity of discussion and experimentation with Mask in reaction to Misstep (as recorded in the deck history of the Dreadstill thread). I can understand quitting to Landstill/Standstill after Snapcaster, and I can understand the Standstill quitters after miracles was allowed to ruin the format for years...but man, what a waste of the last best time to play Dreadstill. So when you talk about how TombNought was the best way to navigate the Misstep format, I'm not surprised that info we can locate does not support that assessment.
In the thread about Mask you linked there's a lot of misunderstanding. However in that thread, like the second announcer in the VoD, they eventually get it right. The point I am making however is that I have doubts that players at competitive events could spontaneously arrive at such correct rulings. It clear that there was widespread confusion about whether or not a card was cast when Mask was used. The high risk of illegitimacy is what I'm concerned about. It's already clown legacy with Misstep, and now we've got to ask if complex mechanics were navigated correctly. This is a time in legacy you don't want to extrapolate from - that's the point I'm making.
^As a Dreadstill player: If there are two legacy players who should know what's going on with Mask, it's pilots of decks with Standstill and/or Dreadnought. Instead we saw a VoD where the Dreadnought player overpays for Nought (playing it into Daze, and not needed to ignore Misstep) and the Standstill player just doesn't Daze and straight-up kills themself. When misunderstanding Mask extends all the way to the the players who should know better, I have little faith that things like 3Ball vs Mask were navigated correctly or generating appropriate judge calls by players who had no reason to understand Mask.
^I also don't associate Ancient Tomb with fostering understanding the rules of magic particularly well. However, I do associate Tomb with lock pieces [Chalice, Sphere effects, and especially 3ball] that generate very complex Mask rulings. If there were a TombNought deck, I would have so many more questions about correct navigation of the rules.
I agree with the Hive Mind. Those VoDs popped up a few times, they made it into articles, and I can find them in mtgtop8. What I don't see is the TombNought. What I can locate is B/BG Nought, but not TombNought. So where is the data?The Tomb/City + Nought strategy was a natural extension of seeing that Mask+Nought was effective in that meta and that blue stompy skipping 1cmc was effective in that meta (Hive Mind). Both had results you can find. Both features were quirks of the meta, which is why I've mentioned only the Misstep era. Colorless acceleration into Mask+Nought was tech in the old Vintage MaskNought, so that idea had already seen competitive play. You could play both Tomb and City in monocolor and you could play proactive 2cmc disruption. The Misstep format was slower: Misstep drove out fast combo and aggro, so maybe there was less penalty for taking that Tomb lifeloss. The DTBs were Uxx midrange, not Delver or aggro.
I did not claim the Tomb version saw widespread competitive play or made sense outside the Misstep era (quote me otherwise). My strongest claim was that it had a good winrate in that meta, playing around what the meta was doing.
https://mythicspoiler.com/mkm/cards/...lainsight.html
Four cost sorcery coco for cloaks.
Cloakco, if you will.
If it was instant I'd say slam dunk, but at sorcery... Going shields down for a turn at a chance of hitting uro/Dreadnought...
Veiled Ascension is markedly better:
3W Enchant: On upkeep you may manifest top card of deck with ward 2. On ETB all face-downs gain flying via counter. All future face-downs enter with flying via counter.
Still has the mana issues of Mastery of the Unseen, but retains repeatability in a color whose removal is reliable and which can extend the game to such a point. Lifegain, EoT manifest timing, and scaling with higher mana state is lost as compared to Mastery. The issue with cards like these, to include a sorcery with dig 5 manifest twice with ward 2, is that Currency Converter exists. Converter has text with Saga, increases Wasteland mana outlets, decreases mulligans, hates out discard. These other cards require 4 mana and don't get you to 4 mana. At 4 mana, you should be playing Karn or other PW. At 3 mana: Scroll of Fate.
In terms of what you need when cards like this are considered (beyond staying in the game to cast them) includes ability to remove Containment Priest, at baseline.
In terms of redefining zone of value to top of deck as #1 priority in deckbuilding, that need went away after the format was liberated from the total hand destruction of Hymn and Counterbalance. Other decks ofc exist in times of total hand destruction, and the need for speed dictates that you can't just flood out on 4-drops. Mastery worked at that time due to 2 cmc, card type enchantment, and E-Tutor trick removing risk of death by do-nothing flood. While magic has changed since that terrible time in legacy, you still want a top-of-library value engine to be white (removal, Solitude) and enchantment/artifact (playable as 1-of due to E Tutor). Green sorcery without repeatable manifesting dead on arrival.
Until the mana cost becomes more competitive, you're basically playing Vance's Blasting Cannons/Outpost Siege at a time when you could get the same value while constricting other decks' play patterns (i.e. Karn passive) or threatening PW ultimate.
Very cool card. Worth trying as a 1 of in the simic lists that play 3-4 Uro alongside Dressnought.
Here's a 4 cost scroll of fate user, choosing to pump the face-down team, or cloak a Dreadnought
Excellent find. It takes the deck in a very different direction but as FTW pointed out, Ancient Tomb Nought lists have finally hit a critical mass of spells to make Tomb worth playing.Time to give a good long look at manifest/mask enablers again...
This is by far the card Im most excited about. Stopping Kappa, Chrome Mox, The One Ring’s Time Walk, Kaldra in addition to stopping everything that Dress Down stops including Doomsday is massive and really makes brewing a UW or Bant Dressnought list incorporating it the next logical step to take.
Bant Dressnought 2024
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
3-4 Stifle
1-2 Lorien Revealed
1 Daze/Misdirection (Spice Slot)
3-4 Prismatic Ending
3-4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3-4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2-4 Doorkeeper Thrull
1 Brazen Borrower
3-4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
1-2 Tundra
0-1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest
I believe the above list would be extremely effective and easily rack up 5-0s and top 8s at the hands of a skilled player like BoshNRoll. The sideboard is what Im not sure about as I can’t think of matchups that the above list would be weak to and should focus on.
Last edited by Clark Kant; 01-26-2024 at 06:00 AM.
Play Scroll of Fate. It costs 3 colorless. It lets you play against Blood Moon and Chalice. It lets you dump any card into play face-down at instant speed.
Vannifar requires 4 mana with 2 color pips. It makes a face-down at sorcery speed *if* you can make if from main phase 1 to combat.
^I must be missing something - what are you guys seeing here? It costs more...and it's worse...and these cantrip cartel approaches to Dreadnought have massive Chalice/Moon liability. How are you planning on casting this?
---
Concerning Pyrotechnic Performer and taking a different direction, UR is already pre-built to use this. I will have to remove 2-3 cards, and add 2-3 of these 3/2s. My list will be 72-73 of 75 cards identical. Tomb count: 0.
---
Concerning Torpor Orb dude, they're really bad in multiples and they make it very easy for opposing strategies to either endlessly Karakas Uro or cleanly 1-for-1. Against Doomsday, you have at minimum like 85% winrate simply because you play Dreadnought (Stifle, Dress Down) - Doomsday is not a credible threat, it's Dreadnought food.
My issue is every time I go to build something in legacy I feel compelled to start with Bowmasters, especially if I'm playing cantrips so I can Bowmasters the opposing Bowmasters.
Which means I start in black. Now I look at the new cards I want to try: there's performer, who I think is the best addition, Hide in Plain Sight which I think despite being sorcery is actually amazing, which means now I'm starting in BRG.
But then there the stompy red list I want to do.
Or, now with cryptic coat I want to go ur, and I'm stuck with decision paralysis because I just didn't have the time to build all these and test them
Bowmasters is so prevalent in the format that its pretty easy to play around. Its also a boon that when we leave up any fetchland along with another mana source, your opponents automatically assume youre holding a Bowmasters and delay playing their cantrips. They often instead opt to play something that walks right into the Dress Down/Thrull that you actually were holding.
Doorkeeper Thrull is way better than Torpor Orb. Being able to flash it in response to your opponents play is what makes it so amazing. Flash is why Dress Down is such a potent card and regularly ends up as a 2 of in controllish decks that dont play Dreadnought
Yes Thrull is not great in multiples but thats just because it sticks around unlike Dress Down so it permanently shuts down Initiative cards, Monarch cards, cantrip creatures, evoke elementals, just about everything in D&T, living weapons and dozens of other format staples. It even makes Bowmasters much weaker. Doorkeeper Thrull is going to be a multiformat staple due to how many cards it shuts off in response to your opponents play. Opponents cant just wait around for a way to remove it before executing their game plan like they can with Orb.
Aside from Thrull, the only blockers you play are a 6/6 and a 12/12 that only show up in the endgame, so your opponent frequently sees an empty board and attacks with Bowmasters. Thrulls flying lifelinking body that can flash in to catch an attacking Bowmasters by surprise and also doesnt die to a single Bowmasters ping is a very nice bonus. I would absolutely play 2 at a minimum in Bant Uro Dressnought lists.
Last edited by Clark Kant; 01-26-2024 at 07:05 PM.
The reason why not-Dreadnought decks play Dress Down is that they all used to sideboard Torpor Orb b/c they have a hopeless matchup vs Thassa. Full stop. Yes, Dress Down does other things but they play it b/c it cycles - that means they can maindeck pseudo-Torpor Orb without having Torpor Orb x2 in their SB, so that they have an axis of interaction with Thassa.
When you bring up these specialized scenarios with flash Torpor Magus, it's important to remember that these are not generally-applicable scenarios. This card has a high risk of having no text and also collapsing any chance you have at recouping CA (Uro will get 1-for-1'd or endlessly hit by Karakas). Add to that the fact that Torpor Orb effects do not get better in multiples, thus resulting in increased dead draws (aka variance).
What you are not quite seeing is that you need CA to enable self 2-for-1 strategies. When that CA is put onto green with Uro, you now have a UG deck which cannot adequately interact. Invariably people pair this problematic color pair with Ponder/Brainstorm...but then they get called on that construction by Bowmaster...so they further compromise their manabase with a 3rd color such that they can focus on dealing with Bowmaster. In doing this we enter the death spiral where Chalice and Moon are absolutely devastating to manabases held together by cantrip cartel. The real kicker here though is that stopping the Bowmaster ETB does not strip the passive - so you still haven't solved the problem and unlocked the cantrips...and now you're even more invested in not having a way to change Dreadnought's cmc to not being countered by Chalice on 1.
In the larger competitive scene, what happens is that you end up with very few good matchups. So unless those matchups are wildly overrepresented (like 30% Delver challenge meta), you don't have an intrinsic source of relevance in this format.
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