If you want to see fourth plus dimensions there's alchemy cards with 6 different backs, man specialization was weird
In paper Magic, not online. What do you physically do with the card to place it "face down" but not show as Tibalt? It defies the physics of a "card game".Originally Posted by Fox
They might as well introduce a keyword ability with "Roll target nonland permanent. If the result is a 3: ability". It could be implemented in the Comp Rules and on MTGO in a functional way, but makes as much sense in paper.
You're supposed to have opaque sleeves or checklist cards when using DFCs , just turn them face down
How was it in your deck? Your hand?
I mean the bigger problem is that the back side of a DFC is technically supposed to be visible in your hand or top of deck. Indicator cards are used because they have an official card back iirc. Otherwise, without sleeves, presence of DFCs would be public knowledge...and then you'd have issue with predicting when one was nearing top of deck etc..
Has anyone tried Slip Out the Back in a list with 4 Uro + 4 Dreadnought?
I feel like this would be a the perfect place for the card given the power level of Uro/Dreadnought and the versatility of Slip Out in not only enabling the combo but also countering StP/Meltdown/Snuff Out/Push/Edict/PE/Brazen Bounce for just a single mana.
Also relevant for modern times, you can even use Slip Out to make your opponents Bowmasters disappear until their next turn during which you could spend cast all the cantrips you’re holding.
Bant Dressnought 2024
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
3-4 Stifle
1-3 Slip Out the Back
1-2 Lorien Revealed
1 Daze/Misdirection (Spice Slot)
3-4 Prismatic Ending
3-4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1-3 Doorkeeper Thrull
1 Brazen Borrower
3-4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
1-2 Tundra
0-1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest
With Slip Out, you could alternatively drop white altogether and play the below deck instead…
BUG Dressnought 2024
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3-4 Daze
1-3 Slip Out the Back
1-2 Witherbloom Command
1-2 Lorien Revealed
1 Shelodred’s Edict
1 Sylvan Library/Fatal Push/Snuff Out/Misdirection (Spice Spell)
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4 Orcish Bowmasters
1 Leovold, Emissary/Death’s Shadow/Opposition Agent (Spice Beats)
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Snow-Covered Swaml
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest
//Sideboard:
3 Hydroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Veil of Summer
2 Force of Vigor
1 Fatal Push
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Force of Negation
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Its honestly beautifully built to counter or dodge a large portion of the current meta.
Slip has been played at 1-2 copies in some Uro lists that made 5-0 on MTGO.
But if you're playing Slip you really don't need Thrull. 10 enablers is more than enough. Slip is much better with Uro and Endurance than Thrull is (does not counter ETB draw).
For your first list, it needs stable mana. It seems more viable as
//Lands: 20
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
//Spells: 26
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Slip Out the Back
2 Lorien Revealed
//Enchantments: 5
4 Dress Down
1 Sylvan Library
//Creatures: 9
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Brazen Borrower
Fox will point out strategic disadvantages vs Dreadstill, but as far as 3 color DressNought goes at least you've achieved important things:
- card advantage (Uro, Library, Lorien)
- reliable answers (StP, Ending)
- alternate wincon (Borrower, Uro)
- Dreadnought enablers that aren't bad on their own (Slip is most likely to be dead, but only 2 copies)
- somewhat stable mana as far as 3 color Uro decks go (still weak to mana hate)
Library might be suicidal vs Bowmasters. 1-of Greater Good could be interesting if you had Tarmogoyf as a fair threat.
In both lists Daze seems bad because you can't afford to undo land drops with manabases like that. The BUG one could use more unconditional interaction instead, e.g. Thoughtseize or Assassin's Trophy, since it doesn't have as many answers as the Bant one.
Oops, I was sure I typed 4 Thoughtseize into that BUG List but I think I accidentally left it out.
4 Thoughtseize is an autoinclude in BUG Nought and is my favorite reason to splash black, more so than Bowmasters.
Thoughtseize is the best way to check when the coast is clear to deploy your game winning threat.
Youre right that Sylvan Library is a bad idea in the Bowmasters meta. I havent played Library recently but yeah it should get axed from the lists.
I do think Uro Dressnought (particularly the two builds above) are very well positioned in the Bowmasters meta as they dodge a lot of removal. More importantly, the threats dodge Bowmasters and consistently outmuscle Orc armies while the lifegain from Uro sometimes let you ignore Bowmasters completely.
With Uro out, you can cantrip into Bowmasters without fear since you are still swinging with a 6/6, drawing a card and netting 2 life every turn.
They are also less reliant on cantrips than most lists so you could side out cantrips for sideboard hate against an aggressive Bowmasters list. Sideboard Endurance is not a reason to avoid playing Thrull. You can just sideout Thrull anytime youre siding Endurance in.
Greater Good+Goyf is a really neat suggestion. Is Goyf still a legacy power level card? Is Greater Good worth playing even without Goyf in the Bowmasters meta?
Also, just wanted to double check. Can you use Misdirection to Misdirect the ping damage from a Bowmasters back to itself. Being able to do that (and the prevalence of Leyline’s Binding) is what would make me want to play Misdirection. Or does Bowmasters no longer count as a spell thus preventing you from being able to Misdirect the damage?
Misdirection does not work on Bowmasters or Leyline Binding. Those are triggered abilities. Force of Negation is the only Legacy-playable version.
The reason for 0 Thrull is not SB Endurance but because 10 enablers is enough (no room for both Thrull and Slip) and Thrull is worse with Uro. If you really want Thrull, probably have to go 0 Slip, but that's worse with the Uro plan.
Greater Good + Goyf are a bit below Legacy power level, though the Greater Good version has done OK in the past. It's better outside the Bowmaster meta.
Murktide and Questing Druid are better than Goyf, but you can't really run either. No red for Druid. Murktide + Uro don't work in the same deck.
Thank you. Misdirection isnt worth playing then. You can ignore that card in the above lists. Slip Out the Back is clearly superior since it does counter Leyline’s Binding and neuters Bowmasters for long enough to cast all your cantrips.
The more enablers you play, the more consistenly strong your threats become. By playing 11-13 enablers, you dramatically lower the odds of Dreadnought being a dead draw.
Given this, why do you say the deck should not play more than 10 “enablers” as you characterize them? Its not a lack of room. Both of my builds above have the room to play more than 10 and if needed, they can easily cut the Lorien Revealed to make even more room for our disruptive or cantripping enablers.
There is no such thing as too many “enablers” when all of the “enablers” themselves have very powerful, useful and unique roles that are actually more powerful than their utility in deploying our threats. Stifle, Dress Down, Slip Out and Thrull all meet that standard.
Stifle should primarily be used as a mana destruction spell, or a hard counter to powerful triggers and a game winning play against a variety of combo decks. Yes it enables the combo but thats not its primary function. Its fine to use it on Uro but I would never waste a Stifle on Dreadnought unless I already Thoughtseized or 100% know the coast is clear.
Slip Out will more often be used to protect your threat and essentially counter removal spells than to enable the combo. Its the best way to protect your win condition. Akin to Stifle, its fine to use it on Uro since thats card neutral but I would never use it to “enable” a Dreadnought unless I already Thoughtseized or 100% know the coast is clear. I would however 100% use it to protect any of my threats from removal which is something none of the other enablers can do.
Dress Down is conveniently the exact inverse of Stifle and Slip Out in that its fine to use it to deploy a single Dreadnought since doing so is a card neutral play and a single Dreadnought is capable of ending the game in 1-2 swings but I would never use up a Dress Down to deploy a single Uro by itself unless I already Thoughtseized or 100% know the coast is clear. Dress Down always cantrips so it shouldnt even be considered an enabler. Its actual best use is to counter an opponents trigger while cantripping you and it will more often either be used to temporarily disable Bowmasters so you can deploy multiple cantrips, or it will be used to deploy multiple threats at once.
Thrull is unique from all the other enablers in a number of ways. Its a permanent hard counter to all creature triggers which largely shuts down a bunch of popular decks outright. Its also a permanent enabler to all current and future threats you deploy so it has potential far beyond when you first deploy it. Its also the best answer to any Stoneforge Mystic Living Weapon decks with incidental splash damage vs Mox as well. Its also a flash flying creature that kills attacking Bowmasters and other X/1 threats and can be flashed in response to stop an opponents most critical trigger which will outright win you some games.
Thrull however is useless in multiples so it only makes sense as a 1-2 of maindeck, but I think its absolutely worth playing in Bant lists alongside Slip Out the Back and it makes sense to play as many as 3 copies in the sideboard given its strength against certain popular decks.
All four cards have powerful and unique effects that are game winning in different situations. So they are all worth playing together. In most metas, it would be well worthwhile to maindeck…
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
1-3 Slip Out the Back
1-2 Doorkeeper Thrull
//Sideboard
2-3 Doorkeeper Thrull
even if it means playing as many as 13 “enablers” preboard and as many as 15 “enablers” postboard.
There is plenty of room, there is nothing wrong with playing…
20 Lands
13 Enablers
4 Uro
4 Dreadnought
8 Cantrips
11 Disruption/Removal
Particularly when the enablers themselves also serve as disruption and both Uro and Dress Down function as cantrips as well.
Last edited by Clark Kant; 01-31-2024 at 11:22 PM.
It's been possible to play 16+ enablers for many years, yet builds with more than 12-13 enablers have not seen competitive results. The successful decks have 7-10.
We can speculate reasons, but most importantly the results speak for themselves. Winning decks haven't needed more. Decks with more haven't done better. Maybe Fox has a better answer for why.
So instead of more enablers, you could use those slots on other roles instead (card draw, removal, alternate threat, stable mana) - roles that are important to play a balanced game against enemy decks. The Bant build I posted above is quite tight for space. There are about 1-3 flex slots (Sylvan Library & Slip are the weakest cards). The 6th removal or 8th cantrip is needed more than the 11th enabler. If there was more space, it should go to 3rd Prismatic Ending or 1st Force of Negation or an alternate threat.
Cutting Lorien seems bad because you need the mana fixing (3 color deck with UUGG) and card draw more than another enabler.
"Too many" enablers looks like drawing enablers far more often than drawing Dreadnought. They aren't quite "dead cards" - you can do something else with them - but the cards are below Legacy power level at that function. And worse than the non-enabler cards you had to cut.
You don't see competitive decks running Slip Out the Back or Vision Charm or The Mycosynth Gardens or Torpor Orb or Hushbringer maindeck without Dreadnoughts, which tells you their other uses are below Legacy power (definitely worse than Goyf). Dress Down cycles and has strong uses. Still non-Dreadnought decks don't play 4 copies of Dress Down. They play 2-3 max. So yes, the cards do other things, but they're below the power level unless making 12/12s. And they compete for space with higher power cards.
If you do somehow have space that isn't better as something else (answer, draw, threat), then you have to ask if Thrull is the best enabler to take that spot. Thrull doesn't work well with Uro. So would you prefer a powerful card like Scroll of Fate or Karn, the Great Creator instead?
Thrull has potential, but that Bant list with 4 Dreadnought 4 Uro may not be the best fit for it. Uro has an important role there as the secondary threat & midgame stabilizer, so you don't want to shut off your own Uro triggers just to make a 6/6 (smaller than Murktide).
I agree. But it's also hard to use Stifle as a reactive spell in a tap-out style Bant deck with plays like Ponder, Uro, Sylvan Library, PEnding. You won't have mana open at the right times to Stifle them.Stifle should primarily be used as a mana destruction spell, or a hard counter to powerful triggers and a game winning play against a variety of combo decks. Yes it enables the combo but thats not its primary function. Its fine to use it on Uro but I would never waste a Stifle on Dreadnought unless I already Thoughtseized or 100% know the coast is clear.
That leads to 2 choices really
1) Play like Fox's Dreadstill (cut Ponder & Uro, play more instant speed plays like Shark Typhoon)
2) Cut down to 2 Stifle because you can't use the 4 Stifle optimally
Cutting Stifles does free up space, perhaps for Thrull.
But with only 9 creatures in the deck, you often won't have a threat to protect. Then a hand full of enablers (especially Slip) looks bad. That mode is only useful if you've used another enabler to make a threat.Slip Out will more often be used to protect your threat and essentially counter removal spells than to enable the combo.
Slip could also be used to Scam Subtlety. That tech is worth looking into. Unfortunately you don't have the white count to scam Solitude.
So you could cut some Slips or Stifles to make room for Thrulls (Thrull does disrupt a lot of decks); it's just that Thrull is worse than Slip or Stifle with Uro.
I quite like the Bant list above. But as you yourself mentioned, Sylvan Library should probably get the boot and 1 Lorien Revealed likely suffices so there is 2 extra slots right there. Its also blatantly obvious why decks didnt play more than 10 enablers before. Its because the earlier enablers like Vision Charm and Illusionary Mask/Torpor Orb/Scroll for many years. Those cards just arent anywhere near as disruptive or impactful as the two most recent enablers, Slip Out the Back and Thrull, due to these enablers instant speed, cheap cost and the powerful effect they have on the board.
I am not saying 13 Enablers is optimal. 13 might make sense for Bant lists in metas with lots of Doomsday or DnT.
However the optimal BUG list only plays at most 11 enablers…
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
3 Slip Out the Back
4 Dreadnought
4 Uro
3 Bowmasters
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 FoW
1 Witherbloom Command
1-2 Flex Slot
19-20 Lands
Slip's been out for a while. The winning decks only run 1-2 Slip even when they could run 4. Some also cut back on Stifles.
Scroll of Fate & Karn (into Torpor Orb) are both very strong cards. So it has been possible to play 12-15 "good" enablers for some time, yet winning decks didn't.
That BUG list is very low on removal and has unstable mana on 19 lands with 0 Lorien and some Wastelands. An optimal BUG list needs more: Assassin's Trophy and/or Sheoldred's Edict. Going below 20 lands also means manascrew vs Delver.
The BUG list I posted can play 20 lands and 1 Lorien Revealed in the flex slot. Why is more removal essential when our threats outpace most creatures and we have 4 thoughtseize and 4 fow supplementing our threats? I am open to moving Bowmasters or Witherbloom to the board to make room for the appropriate removal if you can tell me what matchups/threats you are most worried about that you feel we need additional removal to answer.
I understand where youre coming from. Scroll and Karn are decent but I actually do not feel Scroll is a legacy power level card. Creating a 2/2 a turn at the cost of a card is just too slow for Legacy and 3 mana is a lot to pay for such a meager payoff.
And I feel that Karn at 4cc is just too expensive. I have lost as many games to mana flood as I have to mana screw so I do not think it is a good idea to play either 4cc spells like Karn and Greater Good and risk mana screw. And I also do not think its a good idea to play a high land count and risk mana flood.
Likewise, I like lots of enablers because I rarely want to lose a game with a Dreadnought stuck in my hand that I had no means to cast. In this Grief meta, opponents pick off Dreadnought enablers too easily and thus the more enablers we play, the more likely we can cantrip into one.
I am firmly in the keep all the spells at 3cc or less and keep the land count a lean 19-20 supplemented by cantrips camp. But as I said before, I do think the Bant list you posted above is pretty close to optimal as long as you make room for some Thrull in the sideboard atleast.
If you're already playing stifle, slip, Thoughtseize and Bowmasters, why not grief?
Yeah that's the other thing... once you're on both Stifle & Slip, scam seems like a better secondary strategy. Thrull works badly with Uro & Scam, but Slip is good with both. You could scam Grief for discard, or you could scam Subtletly (counters Grief & Initiative & planeswalkers).
Otherwise 3-4 Slip seems excessive. It's not really a Legacy level card. Non-Dreadnought decks don't run it. Dreadnought decks have only run 1-2 even though they could have 4.
19-20 lands with 3-4 Wasteland and UUGG costs and 0 Lorien will get ripped apart by mana denial decks (Delver, DnT, Moon Stompy). You don't want mana flood either, but that's why Lorien is good. With Lorien you don't get flooded but you don't get mana screwed either.
Why removal? When your main plan is turn 3 Dreadnought/Uro (after Dress Down or Thrull, avoiding blind Stifle+Nought like you said), many decks can race. Delver's Murktide after slowing you down with Wasteland & Daze. Turn 1 Initiative creature is dangerous. UB scam can reanimate an early Troll after discarding your Force. Goblins can make turn 1 Muxus.
What do you do against a resolved Chalice @ 1? It shuts off a lot of the deck. The Bant deck has Prismatic Ending & Borrower, but the BUG deck has just 1 Witherbloom Command.
What about opponent playing Karn into Ensnaring Bridge? If you don't have Force, 0 answers for Bridge maindeck.
20/20 Marit Lage ambushing or racing Dreadnought? The Bant deck has 7 answers, BUG has 0 (Sheoldred Edict helps).
With Force and Thoughtseize you're very prepared for combo, but fair decks can also play dangerous permanents before you can race. Most decks run answers.
When running extra enablers, you have to ask if those enablers help you win more than flexible removal or Lorien or card draw would. BUG might want some Sauron's Ransom, a better solution to discard than playing redundant effects (if they see Dreadnought & 3 enablers, they're just taking Dreadnought).
In BUG, if you still want extra enablers, look at that UB flying looter that can turn into Dreadnoughts. At least that's an enabler that can also smooth out unbalanced hands or dig into answers.
You’re right. Grief makes a lot of sense in the BUG list with Stifle and Slip.
Adding Grief seems correct, the only issue is figuring out what to cut and how to up the black count to 14. I guess it would fit into the flex slots and a Thoughtseize or two could be substituted with Grief. In addition, playing a Leovold, Emissary of Trest is a great way to boost both our disruption and our black and blue count, but that still doesnt quite get us to a black count of 14.
So I am wondering if perhaps it makes sense to replace a Ponder with a Sauron’s Ransom or Shelodred’s Edict or Snuff Out in order to increase the black count for Greif. If we go the Snuff Out route, replacing the 4th Uro with a 1 of Death’s Shadow also makes sense as a way to beef up both the black count and our clock.
Troll (instead of Lorien), Sauron's Ransom and removal could boost black count if you're on the Grief plan.
I tried throwing something together. You end up cutting copies of Dress Down and Uro and to make room.
That's the problem with too many enablers. Fights for space. Dress Down ends up looking worse with Grief & Bowmasters & Uro too.
Can't cut Ponder in a 3-color Uro deck with only 16 colored lands, the manabase needs it.
Edit:
//Creatures: 14
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Orcish Bowmasters
2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4 Grief
2 Troll
//Spells: 25
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
2 Slip Out the Back
2 Thoughtseize
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Sauron's Ransom
//Enchantments: 2
2 Dress Down
//Lands: 19
2 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Yeah replacing Lorien with Troll is probably the best way to get to 14 black cards for Grief. Once you add Grief and Troll, a Reanimate or two starts to look very appealing. But I wouldnt cut Dress Down. Its the best “enabler” of them all.
Curious what the list you came up with looks like. Do you mind sharing it?
Just posted it above in an edit.
I added Sauron's Ransom for card draw and Trophy (removes Dark Depths, Murktide, Chalice @ 1, Ensnaring Bridge, Back to Basics, planeswalkers, Archon of Cruelty, Serra's Emissary on creatures... most permanents that would give this deck problems). Troll instead of Lorien
Black count is 15. But to make room I had to cut back on Uros, Dress Downs and Wasteland.
Edit: So the problem with Dress Down here is although it's the best Dreadnought card, it has anti-synergy with the other creatures (and even cycling it can backfire).
Uro - turns off card draw & life gain & land drop
Bowmasters - turns off your own Bowmasters for a turn to let opponent Brainstorm
Grief - turns off Grief ETB discard
Slip doesn't turn off Grief & Uro abilities, so it's better there, but it's worse by itself and worse with Dreadnought.
Slip + Grief is also worse than Reanimate/Ephemerate + Grief (get extra discard). So maybe it's not worth mixing Scam and Dreadnought. You end up watering down both.
Last edited by FTW; 02-01-2024 at 01:41 PM.
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