Very nice take on U/B landstill.
I really like some of your card choices (Haunting Echoes especially), however some choices seem really odd to me (namely Ghastly Demise and your "man plan").
I try to give some feedback on some card choices:
Playing Engineered Explosives with only two colors seems a bit suboptimal to me... why not play Powder Keg instead?. Most relevant enchantments (namely Solitary Confinement) are more expensive than 2 anyways, making that a moot point for Explosives.
Have you considered to add one or two Nevi Disks? Might be too slow, but can take out cards the deck wouldn't handle otherwise.
Stifle hot or not? A clear "the hotness". Stifle is so freakin' awesome, giving you the edge in a tempo based game (countering fetch-lands is huge).
Abyss hot or not? The Abyss is really weak against U/W/G Thresh, mediocre at best vs. Goblins (goblins want to overextend anyways to beat you down, so there's no point in forcing them to overextend with a 4 mana enchantment). A really goofy card, looking great on paper but actually doing far to less to warrant a deck slot.
I don't think I like 4 Counterspells in this deck, UU is a big stretch on the manabase (8 colorless lands... hard to support UU at most times). Counterspell is obviously a good card, but maybe 2 would be enough (replacing the other two with some other kind of permission spell, not requiering UU).
Possible options: - Disrupting Shoal
- Spell Burst (a big "if",I'm just brainstorming on these)
- Mana Leak
Ghastly Demise? Seriously? I think outside of U/B/G Thresh this card is too hard to use effectively. I would run either Edicts or Innocent Blood (sorcery - yes. but can hit that pesky mongoose, which Demise can't touch) in this slot.
As for Damnation, we all agree, that it's superior to Decree of Pain...
Sideboard:
I think the man plan simply wastes to many slots. That simple.
The 8 slots could be better filled with a mix of Extirpates and some Counterbalances// Sensei's Divining Tops. I played these for some time now and I am really impressed. Counter/Top wins games you don't have business winning. It's just so amazing against a wide variety of decks (I know this contradicts with the "UU for Counterspell is hard to get" argument).
Adding a third color is always an option that gives big rewards for a big risk.
Let's see:
I'll list just the most obvious cards...
White:
- Swords to Plowshares
- Vindicate
- Decree of Justice
- various Disenchant effects
...
kind of meh... If considering these, why not simply play U/W Landstill...
Red:
- Burn (Lightning Bolt, Fire//Ice)
- Pyroclasm or Rough//Tumble (does this deck really need more creature kill?)
- good Artifact hate
- nice sideboard hate vs. white and blue
Green:
- Pernicous Deed (Now that's better than Explosives)
- Regrowth (might turn into Demonic Tutor mid- to lategame, really huge if revealed with Fact or Fiction)
- Krosan Grip (uncounterable Enchantment and Artifact hate can't be that bad)
Sweet.
I think of the above mentioned options, if any I would probably settle with Green... Looks to be the most powerful. Deed >>> Explosives/Keg/Disk.
Sorry if I don’t get the reference, but what you call wasting time I call taking time to make sure that I don’t get mana screwed do to the fact that I have a inadequately shuffled deck.Originally Posted by scrumdogg
It’s actually not improbable to take the aggressive stance, it’s as simple as putting Mishra's Factory in the red zone more often.
I wouldn’t advise messing with the mana base especially if your deliberating about adding lands that come into play tapped
it’s not completely out of the question to splash just for things like Decree of Justice. It wouldn’t hurt the mana base that badly due to the fact that Decree doesn’t come online till really late in the game.
It doesn’t necessarily have to be black. Things like Teferai, Errant of Ephemeron, and Possessed Aven come to mind.
The reason that Explosives is in the deck over things like Powder keg is the fact that to kill something at the 2cc end of the spectrum (for example) wont be able to come online till turn 4 (if played on turn 2). As opposed to Explosives, which comes online in potentially, the same turn? At any rate what perments do you actually care above 2 casting cost that the rest of the deck can’t take of?
I will admit it leaves a few things to be desired against Gro. But against Goblins it’s actually quite amazing. Goblins don’t want to over extend against board control decks (like this one) because then they lose to things like Decree of Pain or Damnation. And if they sit there and let The Abyss eat at there board the that just gives you more time to either a) Deal with what ever they currently have on the board b) set up waste lock c) or just beat them
You have 14 blue sources plus Brainstorm to support Double blue, and you don’t always need double on turn 2. Shoal just seems terrible because you really don’t want the added card disadvantage. Spell burst just seems bad in a format where the fundamental turn is 3-4. The reason why it’s so damn good in type 2 is the fact that you have tron and the fundamental turn is much slower. Mana leak is an opinion that I’ve been toying with but ended up cutting since you want more spells that effect the board.
You play just as many fetch lands as grow plus Brainstorm, Wasteland, and Stifle. It’s not that hard to use effectively if timed right.
What would you bring Extirpate in against that more Haunting Echoes wouldn't be better?
I would venture to say that Counterbalance and Top would take almost the same amount of sb spaces as The Man Plan would. Except this way, you have a better way of ending the game.
If im going to splash another color its going to be white for Decree of Justice.
Proud Member of The Unicorn Mafia
Once your in the only way out is in a wooden box.
A few words on the Extirpate issue:
The pro of Extirpate is being uncounterable and being cheap. Haunting Echoes' 5 mana investment can be pretty harsh. I see Echoes as a late game win option, not as a combo disruption card. I've won many matches thanks to Echoes against lategame decks like MWC, Rifter and the like. Against aggro its value is highly reduced (and then again, with the printing of Damnation Echoes is a great follow up, that can tear an aggro deck appart).
Extirpate, however, plays a completely different role. Being able to hose a combo with B seems pretty solid. Even against Thresh it's a nice addition (Hitting a Fetchland with Extirpate wrecks havoc on the land light Thrshhold builds... sure, they will adjust to it by diversifying their fetchland base, but anyways...). The Threshhold matchup is probably decided by land superiority, thus I judge Extirpate, Wasteland and Stifle key in this matchup.
Even extirpating Force of Will is a great boon. Admitted, against aggro Extirpate is somewhat lacking, but I don't think this warrants excluding the most unfair card having seen print in recent time from a deck that seems perfectly made for it.
Concerning additional finishers:
Um... maybe Morphling or Psychatog? Otherwise Teferi sounds good...
Concerning Ghastly Demise:
I'm still not sold on the concept. Against Goblins it's still only a 1 for 1 trade, it's overall weak against Threshhold (hitting a Werebear requires 4 cards in the grave, it doesn't kill Enforcers and Mongeese... the only thing it can reliably kill is Meddling Mage). Giving the opponent another reason to board in Tormod's crypt (in addition to Crucible Recursion) doesn't seem to good to me, as well.
Concerning Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top:
You could always play the Tops in the Maindeck, strengthening Fetchland shuffles...
Sorry to say it, but the sideboard "man plan" just seems somehow lacking to me. I mean seriously.... we're talking about Dandan here? It's good against Solidarity and what else?
The Counterbalance plan is much more versatile and can be brought in against a lot more decks:
- Threshhold's Curve: lots of 1cc, some 2cc, few 4cc, few 5 cc.
- Burn's Curve: lots of 1cc, some 2cc, few 6cc (Fireblast). (Don't laugh, Burn is a tough matchup and Counterbalance can be quite devastating for the Burn player)
- Goblins: you don't want Counterbalance here...
- Solidarity: Key spells at 1cc and 2cc.
- Random Decks: Most Decks run at least some cheap spells, thus Counterbalance can be boarded accordingly.
Sideboard cards should be either:
a.) as versatile as possible
or
b.) as powerful as a hoser can be
"The man plan" is neither versatile nor powerful. If there's more than 30 % solidarirty in your meta it might be necessary to take the risk of otherwise dead sideboard slots. My meta has at the very most 2 solidarity player (more often than not 0), thus I wouldn't consider wasting 8 slots in my board.
A final word on Abyss vs Goblins:
Warchief >>> Damnation >>> Abyss
Where as all get owned by Tsabo's Decree and Decree of Pain in that matchup, of course. Still, hasted men are nothing to sneeze at. And a clever Goblin player who sits on a Vial and a couple of lands can mean serious trouble for sorcery based removal (I once got owned by Caller of the Claw from a Goblin player after I wrathed his overextended board... wasn't funny at all).
Don't get me wrong, I really liked The Abyss back in the days, but I think Magic has changed so dramatically, that it's nothing more than a nice to look at Legends card nowadays. Maybe in a meta filled with Sea Stompy or Old School Zoo (you know with Serendibs and Kird Apes...)...
How's EE been working for you?
And speaking of Teferi, why not Meloku?
Team Rehab- We Keep Coming Back For More
Team Blitzkrieg- Swagga.
Storm Boards
Since overlord95 and I have tested Extirpate in many different ways, I'm going to jump in here and tell you it's overrated against combo--it might even suck. A smart Solidarity player can elect to play spells in response to each other, not letting you have priority, not letting you play Extirpate. IGGy Pop can also play Rituals in response to each other, so can TES. Extirpate is only good against combo if you can stop them from winning by removing Tendrils or Empty the Warrens or Brain Freeze from the game, 2 of which kill you before the physical copy of the card hits the yard so you can play Extirpate.
Board control strategies are already an uphill battle for Gro, see Rabid Wombat, Truffle Shuffle, Train Wreck, and Rifter. There's so much creature removal in those decks that Gro cannot counter every single one. Extirpate targeting Force of Will isn't going to help you do what you're already able to do, kill their men.
Instant Speed removal is very important against Goblins. Try playing a deck with 4 Chainer's Edict, 4 Diabolic Edict, and 4 Innocent Blood against Goblins and you'll see for yourself. Kill Warchief to rob the other Goblins of haste. Kill a lethal Piledriver. Kill Goblin Lackey.
Tsabo's Decree and Decree of Pain are not optimal choices in the maindeck, I'd rather have a card that makes the other player sacrifice a creature every turn, especially against Goblins.
Do you know where we play Magic, smeagol? We live on the East Coast of the US, the comboest place on Earth. You live in Germany, which is dominated by Aggro-Control, the unhappiest place on Earth for Solidarity. Without 4 Flesh Reaver and 4 Dandan, how would you beat Solidarity with this deck? Counterbalance?
Yea he pretty much beat me to it. Extirpate really is justa I win more cards in alot of situation and really is just isnt worth the spaces it takes up.
Ive been loving it. Having the abilty to detroy things Aether Vial and Pithing Needle all the while staying in just 2 colors as been fantastic.
That works just as well, I guess playing either of these is really meta game dependent. Meloku for the heavy aggro meta games and Teferi for the heavier Grow/Solidarity meta games.
Proud Member of The Unicorn Mafia
Once your in the only way out is in a wooden box.
Thanks for the nice feedback. Really helps me a lot to understand your reasoning behind the deck and understand your specific card choices (I would for instance never consider EE in a 2 color deck... but your arguments are sound... so I agree that EE is better than Keg - though it still tempts me to at least add another off color dual to get the possibility for a 3rd counter on the Explosives).
The deck seems like an excellent foil against a lot of commonly played decks to me.
Happy me then. :D
True enough. But a smart control player also has 4 Duress in his board and takes appropriate mulligans when necessary to get one of these, in order to be able to take an important combo piece on his first turn and follow it up with Extirpate. Just a thought.
Yeah, that is exactly my reasoning against The Abyss. A smart Goblin player can just play around it. So why not play a Decree of Pain instead, which can at least be cycled away, if necessary?
Icky! Would you really mulligan in Game 2 and 3 until you found Duress and Extirpate?
Why not board in Tsabo's Decree which will destroy all Goblins in play and make the opponent discard all the Goblins in their hand?
Of course not, but if your hand doesn't contain Duress and/or Extirpate or a decent mix of card quality it's probably a sure mulligan post board anyway against combo if you want to have a chance.
Fact is, that Solidarity makes only a very minor part of my meta game, therefore I don't want to dedicate 8 slots (a.ka. "the man plan") just for that matchup. Extirpate seems to be the more flexible choice for a more diverse meta, that can play a role against other decks as well (by the way doesn't seem too sucky against Iggy as well...).
I'm not talking about playing Decree of Pain instead of the sideboard Tsabo's Decree, but instead of the main deck Abyss.
Even thou Solidarity might comprise only a slight portion of the Meta game pie where you are, The Man Plan comes in against other things that aren’t Solidarity for instants Iggy Pop, Grow, the mirror, and damn well pretty much anything, you feel that would have a hard time dealing with two mana four power creatures.
If your bringing in Extirpate just for the combo match up, to me this would seem like a even more narrow side boarding strategy then The Man Plan. On the other hand lets say you do opt to bring in Extirpate against something that isnt combo, Extripate is contingante on something else happening first for it do what it has to do to be good(for example you might have to cast Damnation then Extirpate which just seems weak).
Yes you are right im sure its amazing in this match up. But yet again its just an I win more card in this match up. Between Stifle, countermagic, and The Man Plan(games 2 and 3) this is more then enough to take them to the cleaners.
What ive been trying to explain to you is that there is more synergy between The Abyss and wrath effects then wrath effects and more wrath effects.
Proud Member of The Unicorn Mafia
Once your in the only way out is in a wooden box.
Yeah, I see your point. It is, however, still a more narrow card (not to say quite a dead card slot) vs. most of the field, where as a card like Decree of Pain can be cycled away at least. I'd rather have the redundance of another wrath-like effect than a "potentially" broken board-control enchantment that's otherwise dead against a large portion of the field. I mean... seriously against how many different decks is The Abyss good?
You probably beat an aggro deck more with power than with synergy.
I wouldn't even consider boarding Extirpate vs. Decks against which I have to resolve mass removal in order to win. This would indeed be a very weak strategy...
On the other hand, you still have the option of hitting other key spells or even fetchlands (thus strengthening the LD part of the deck) with Extirpate. Sure Extirpate is completely ractive, but the sheer power of potentially ripping apart an opponent's main strategy seems good (even taking a burn spell, that has only be cast once in a given game from a burn player can be good times - I don't know how many Burn players are in your area, but we have quite some of them infesting our meta, and nothing sucks more than losing to cheap burn ^^).
Dandan being boarded in vs. Grow does make sense to me, but Fleshreaveer looks very suicidal.
By the way, what are your experiences with Pithing Needle played against you? The Needle has quite some key targets (Explosives and Factory - if both are needled, seems like the deck is losing, unless you win with Haunting Echoes).
Perhaps just because of that the deck should play a 2/1 split of Explosives and Keg.
And another thing that just came to my mind: Why not play some Duress maindeck?
I like to have more diverse answers than several 4 off's that are only good against certain strategies (like the Demise and the Counterspells). Maybe it's just me, but I'm quite a fan of random one-offs, that at least give me a chance to swing some unfavorable games.
Keep on, the discussion gets interesting.
Edit: Just received my missing Extirpates and Damnation with the mail. I threw the deck together and stumbled across Piracy Charm. Doesn't look too shabby to me:
- kills the Lackey
- kills unthresholded Bears
- kills Confidants
- can be used when in topdeckmode to force instant discard
- is blue, so pitches at least to Force, if the other uses aren`t relevant
With that in mind I made some changes to your original list (tweakings in order to match my meta):
- 2 Demise
- 2 Counterspells
- 1 Engineered Explosives
- 1 The Abyss
- 1 Polluted Delta (yeah, I know... "don't mess with the mana base...", but 23 lands seem to be enough)
+ 3 Duress
+ 1 Piracy Charm
+ 1 Decree of Pain
+ 1 Powder Keg
+ 1 Morphling
Currently the board looks like this:
4 Extirpate
4 Blue Elemental Blast / Hydroblast (vs. Goblins and especially Burn)
1 Duress
2 Tsabo's Decree (only have 2, unfortunately... but one resolved should be enough anyway)
1 Ghastly Demise
3 open slots (most probably either some kind of creature or more discard... the deck has already enough creature hate - even thought about Headhunter/Riptide Pilferer in this slot)
I guess these changes look terrible to you, but anyways... Feel free to comment.
Last edited by smeagol; 02-21-2007 at 08:27 AM.
The percentages of having any one of in your opening hand is only 12%, these odds are only increased to 20% by turn 5. IMO sence the card in question is a one of it should be objectively stronger sence your going to see it less often.
Goblins, Zoo, Fearie stompy, Grow(the creature heavy builds), Survival, pretty much every build of Fish or Fish style deck, Angel Stompy, and Sui/Red Death just to name a few.
But the problem with doing this is that it actually doesn’t effect what’s in play at the time.
If your really worried about this match up you could play something like Chalice of the Void and just beat them.
Since in this match up they have no reach I view my life total as a asset not as something I should protect.
Pithing Needle can be a problem if resolved in multiples. However, this does also give you the opportunity to find the answer to it potentially a second or third time.
That’s definitely an option but this decision is really dependent on whether or not your meta game permits its. One thing thou I wouldn't trade Counterspell for Duress. What you’re doing here is trading an objectively stronger counterspell with fewer requirements for another one at sorcery speed which losses to the top deck what ever. Counterspell is objectively less dead in any given match up because the only requirements are having something worth countering on the stack and it being on the stack.
Proud Member of The Unicorn Mafia
Once your in the only way out is in a wooden box.
In fact the percentages are even lower. The chance for drawing any one-off in your starting hand is 11,66... %, 18,33... % by turn 5 baring any additional draws (which this deck has). (I'm doing a course on statistics and probability this term).
These figures still shouldn't keep you from playing one-offs in a deck. I agree, that a one-off should either be as powerful as possible or to be as versatile as possible (and still fill an important role in the deck), to warrant any inclusion.
Still I'd rather have the versatile card, as a lot of matches are solely decided by the player who drew fewer dead cards (of course you still have the option of shuffling a dead card in a given matchup away with brainstorm and fetchlands... ).
And I also like to match the number of cards I board out against a certain deck with possible replacements from the board (this however is quite often really hard to figure out, unfortunately). Thus I also like cards in my sideboard that fit multiple roles against more than one deck. I wouldn't completely dismiss your "man plan", if it works for you, fine.
After discussing the matter, I can understand your approach to it and see, that it's probably a necessary evil in order to fit your combo-filled meta (from your opening post I see that you aren't too satisfied with it, otherwise you wouldn't have put it to debate).
True to some extend.
I'm not talking about playing Duress over Counterspell, but playing a mix of them. They both fill similar roles.
In my opinion, however, the deck needs a pro-active counterspell that comes online on your first turn (in addition to FoW) to beat certain strategies, or to delay the game long enough for other cards to matter (like Standstill). More often than not you want to protect a key card with a Duress (like Crucible or Echoes), when you need to cast it and don't have the UU to spare. Knowing what the opponent is up to do on his next one or two turns is a real boon, as well.
Duress can do this, while Counterspell can't. The main argument against Duress might be the weakening of Stifle (as you more often than not don't have U open to stifle the first turn Fetchland use).
I don't see this deck as draw go, where you just play lands and keep them open to counter possible threats.
With Damnation, Ghastly Demise and artifact-based removal you probably should have enough cards to intefere with oposing threats. And still, I won't board Extirpate against a pure aggro deck...
It's just another way punishing weak draws or weakly built decks (lots of decks will have to adapt to the threat of being Extirpated from the game, if they still want to have a chance. I can't see Threshhold Decks for example only relying on 4 Swords to Plows as their only removal in the future... if a deck wants to be serious contender in a worldfull of Extirpates it has to change from the "play 4 off's for more consistency" philospohy. The enormous size of the Legacy card pool offers so many alternatives...).
Also it's great in Control mirrors, as well. Don't you think it would be horrible for U/B Landstill (or other Landstill decks for that matter...) to get an early wasted Mishra's Factory extirpated, for example?
smeagol, how has your testing been against Goblins? I'm having a very difficult time beating Goblins losing nearly 80% of the time Pre-board.
You should run the uncle istvan/spiteful bully combo in this deck. Now that's what I call tempo!
they haunt minds...
I only did a few test games vs. a mono red goblin build (including 4 wastes and 4 ports). I'd say the matchup is pretty even, if not slightly in favor of the U/B Landstill Deck. I made another change to the U/B Deck before playing the games, replacing the random Morphling (seemed from my testing vs. other decks, that Factories and Echoes are enough win conditions most of the time) with another Decree of Pain.
There are, however, some important observations, I made:
- Decree of Pain is huge in this match-up (if you can get the 5 lands into play, that is)
- An early Crucible is key, as it can fight against the land disruption Goblins has to offer.
- spot removal is only useful in the first few turns to get rid of the Lackey or a Warchief
- Mass removal followed by Haunting Echoes is often gg (especially if you can grab Warchief, Piledriver and/or Ringleader with it)
- Ringleaders are a must counter
- Standstill is good, if the Goblin player doesn't have Vial and only one or two smaller Goblins in play (with no Tinkerer involved)
- The longer the game goes, the better the chances to win (simple as that really... if you can survive the first onslaught, the cardadvantage will win for you)
- Try to trade Mass Removal spells for at least 2 Goblins at a time.
- any hand with fewer than 3 lands should be considered a mulligan, unless you have 2 basic lands//Fetchlands (including an Island) and a brainstorm (everything else will make the land disruption of the Goblin Deck own you) .
Cards you don't necessarily want to draw:
- Duress (only hits Vials, however quite a good first turn play, as you can more or less anticipate th Goblin player's first few turns)
- Stifle (has some uses in this matchu-up, but most often it's only a Land Destruction counter or a sinkhole on opposing Fetchlands.. overall not that strong vs. Goblins... probably besides Duress the first card to board out)
- Fact or Fiction is okay, but very slow vs. aggro... I even considered Thirst for Knowledge instead in this slot, but haven't tested that yet (though the artifact count is quite low with only 2 Crucibles and 3 Explosives/Kegs). Even Impulse might be an idea (Cheap dig at instant speed can't be that bad).
I wouldn't consider Skeletal Scrying, as the Life Loss seems to be quite harsh without any possibility to gain it back (I'm a fan of Scrying in B/W Control Decks with Exalted Angels... but U/B doesn't have that).
Cards you absolutely don't want to see from the Goblin player:
- Goblin Tinkerer !!! that little bugger owns Factories, therefore get rid of him as soon as possible, as an active tinkerer will also rend Standstill useless
- Wastelands and Ports are a big nuissance, without Crucible you're in for some trouble
Goblins do get the nuts from time to time... Losses will occur, even with 3 Damnation and 2 Decrees maindeck.
I guess this deck really wants a third Crucible and then maybe replacing Facts for Thirst.
Thoughts?
Stifle is a lot better in the goblins match up than you give it credit for being. Not only does it counter fetches and wastes, but it's also an answer to ringleader (which you said is important in this match up), matron, and even siege-gang if it needs to be. You pointed out that both ringleader and wasteland can be problematic cards in this matchup, and it seems to me that stifle answers both of those cards fairly effectively. I really don't think I would consider boarding out such a versatile card in this match up.
The unicorns were the most recognizable magic the fairies possessed, and they sent them to those worlds where belief in the magic was in danger of failing altogether. After all, there has to be some belief in magic--however small--for any world to survive. --Terry Brooks--(The Black Unicorn)
Team Unicorn: Majestic bringers of doom and destruction. Need proof? Ask and you shall receive....
True to some extend. Stifle is some good against Goblins, agreed. But to be honest, I'd rather have Blue Elemental Blasts and Tsabo's Decree post boarding, which are overall more effective than Stifle.
You've something like 5-6 sideboard cards for the Goblin matchup and overall Stifle seems like the weakest link (something has to be boarded out, right? and I'm pretty sure it isn't a good idea to take out the Standstills. I might be wrong with this assumption, as Standstill with an active Vial on the board is just a dead card... Anyway, that's what I would want to take out. The only other card that could probably be boarded out is Counterspell).
Blue Blast >>> Stifle vs. Goblins, as it not only prevents the draw of Ringleader, but destroys it as well (and all other Goblins, too... yeah, Piledriver has Pro:blue, but it can be countered anyway). The only drawback is the increased susceptibility to Wastelands... I think I would take that risk.
The versatility of Stifle is good, when preparing for a somehow open metagame. Stifle won't be a dead card in a wide range of matchups. But after boarding you'll want more specific and more powerful cards instead (and don't forget the psychologiacl aspect of Stifle, if you stifled a Fetchland in game 1 - when ever you've got U up, the opponent won't want to use his fetches, especially in land light draws in game 2... thus Stifle performs a nice little mind trick, virtually Force Spiking the opponent for the first few turns. It's a bit like Daze, which often enough gets boarded out in Threshhold Decks - however you never can be sure, whether the opponent boarded it out or not).
Some thoughts:
If you're looking for finishers, I'm a big fan of finishers that do more than just "finish". Twisted Abomination comes to mind immediately, and Masticore seems pretty decent as well (as well as Razormane).
Your sideboard looks awful on paper.
Tsabo's Decree? I think I'd rather play Plague to be honest. Not having to be reliant on 6 mana against a deck that:
A) Goldfishes turn 3 at fastest, and turn 4.5 or so on average
B) Plays a mana denial sub-theme
C) Can rip Ringleader off the top afterwards anyways
just doesn't seem all that good. It's not like you aren't going to have have FoW back up for their Disenchant half the time anyways. This part I don't think I'm anywhere close to wrong on.
While I'm in support of the man plan to apply pressure against combo decks, I don't like 8 of those slots being creatures. I'd rather see 4 Negator and 4 Cabal Therapy (should have good synergy with Factory/Crucible), with 4 Duress already in the board, it's likely to be Duress 5 - 8 most of the time, a small amount of the time hit nothing, an equally small amount of the time be Double Duress with Factory, and an even smaller amount of the time be absolutely nuts nailing double Ritual/LED/Reset.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote