[Deck] CounterSliver 2.0 (MeatHooks.dec)

[Pinder]

1) 16 Creatures doesn't really seem like enough to truly abuse Vial. There's been discussion of this in the past, but the basic jist is that if you want to run Aether Vial, you probably need between 20-30 Slivers in the deck. 16 just isn't enough.

2) I realize that Aether Vial is probably there to get creatures in under Standstill, but depending entirely on it for that seems a little weak. What if it gets Needled? And Standstill probably doesn't belong in this deck anyway, as you generally want to lay down as many beaters per turn as you can, and Standstill will cause you to hold back beaters so you don't break it. You can only Vial in so many. If you're looking for a source of card advantage, try Fact or Fiction. That card is some good. And EOT FoF can often be gamebreaking.

[Maverick676]

I swear if I have to endure one more debate about whether vial should be included in this deck I will start smoting people with my fiery hammer of doom.

[Pinder]

I swear if I have to endure one more debate about whether vial should be included in this deck I will start smoting people with my fiery hammer of doom.

Smiting. You'll start smiting people .

[Kronicler]

Hey guys, I just wanted to say that I recently finished building Counterslivers and I gotta say it is an absolute blast to play. Between myself and my group of friends we have 7 legacy decks, but only TES comes close to being as fun to play as this deck. One thing I'm not sure about is the SB though. Right now my SB is as follows:

3 Harmonic Sliver
4 Meddling Mage
3 Stifle
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

So far this seems to take care of everything... but I'm not exactly sure how useful the needles are. Sure, they are amazing against gobos and survival, but what else? Against combo they sure don't do anything (not that we need any more help against combo after boarding lawl), against thresh they don't do anything... unless i'm really forgetting something, and I might be because we dont see much thresh around here. If someone could just refresh my memory about how useful needle is, I would appreciate it. So... yeah... just awesome job on making an awesome deck. I will be watchin' this thread for many months to come...

Kronicler

P.S. Pinder.... I see quotes from you in sigs all over the source. You might be the funniest person here, hehe. Anyway, amazing quote from you in my sig. And yes, I do Dilu all the time.

[Pinder]

So far this seems to take care of everything... but I'm not exactly sure how useful the needles are. Sure, they are amazing against gobos and survival, but what else? Against combo they sure don't do anything (not that we need any more help against combo after boarding lawl), against thresh they don't do anything... unless i'm really forgetting something, and I might be because we dont see much thresh around here. If someone could just refresh my memory about how useful needle is, I would appreciate it.

Needle comes in handy against Survival builds, and it's HOUSE against Deed. It's great when they search up a way to deal with it (while you're beating face), only to get it Stifled because you've had 3-4 turns to find one (and then to continue to beat face). It's also great vs. Wasteland from Gobs, allowing you to fetch duals safely. It's nice against EE from Thresh as well. All around it's pretty useful. If you don't find a ton of uses for it though, go ahead and run something else. The sideboard is them ost flexible part of this deck.

P.S. Pinder.... I see quotes from you in sigs all over the source. You might be the funniest person here, hehe. Anyway, amazing quote from you in my sig. And yes, I do Dilu all the time.

I'm sure certian members of the EPIC Syndicate would disagree (Diablos is pretty heelarious), but thank you nonetheless.

[BeeblesofLife]

Ok, I havent posted here in a while...So to start a fresh arguement...To those who think vile should be included...I have just one question. Is your head up your ass for the warmth? This deck is AGGRO CONTROL, I know it may be confuseing because it has the word AGGRO in it. You shouldn't let that deter you from the control aspect. I will raise my pimp against anyone who brings this up again. This portion of the convo. ends NOW.

Second, I really think you guys should put Plague SLiver in the deck...just some extra fat would be nice...Mav, I hope to god you know i'm joking.

[Volt]

I weep for this thread. It used to be interesting. No longer.

[Kronicler]

Volt, you make a good point, this thread has slowed down a lot. I dunno though, I think that is, more than anything, a sign that the maindeck is pretty much perfect. I've been playing this deck a lot over the past 2 weeks and I don't think I would change a thing. It's a blast to play, it's very consistent, and it doesn't have many bad matchups. What more is there to discuss .

Kronicler

[Solpugid]

Don't be discouraged by the thread slowing. If you feel you have a good list, back that opinion up with results: take the deck to more tournaments and see how you do. At the very least that will help you to better determine good and bad match-ups, how to board more effectively, or even enlighten you to some new "tech".

I'm seriously contemplating making this deck myself (I'm just 3 crystalline slivers and 4 muscle slivers short of having all the cards), but I seriously worry about board control. Unlike other fish decks (yeah, I'm calling this a version of fish...so sue me) you need a good number of creatures out to really pose a threat. That, as you know, opens you up to deed, explosives, and wrath like no other. Since the deck has no true card advantage that kind of sweeper will mean game.

So, to spark some discussion, even if only a bit:

1. Is there a way (or a reason) to fit some form of card advantage in here?
2. How often do you guys come across board control decks? How do you do against them?
3. Have you tested a UWR version at all? (You lose muscle, gain cautery...eh)
4. How many winged do you run? If this is anything like UG madness from back in the day, mass flying just wins games against aggro decks.
5. How many tournaments has this deck actually seen play in? What finishes did you guys get?
6. What sliver do you think has the coolest artwork? I'd vote for acidic, but seeing as you don't run him...muscle.

[Kronicler]

Don't be discouraged by the thread slowing. If you feel you have a good list, back that opinion up with results: take the deck to more tournaments and see how you do. At the very least that will help you to better determine good and bad match-ups, how to board more effectively, or even enlighten you to some new "tech".

I'm seriously contemplating making this deck myself (I'm just 3 crystalline slivers and 4 muscle slivers short of having all the cards), but I seriously worry about board control. Unlike other fish decks (yeah, I'm calling this a version of fish...so sue me) you need a good number of creatures out to really pose a threat. That, as you know, opens you up to deed, explosives, and wrath like no other. Since the deck has no true card advantage that kind of sweeper will mean game.

So, to spark some discussion, even if only a bit:

1. Is there a way (or a reason) to fit some form of card advantage in here?
2. How often do you guys come across board control decks? How do you do against them?
3. Have you tested a UWR version at all? (You lose muscle, gain cautery...eh)
4. How many winged do you run? If this is anything like UG madness from back in the day, mass flying just wins games against aggro decks.
5. How many tournaments has this deck actually seen play in? What finishes did you guys get?
6. What sliver do you think has the coolest artwork? I'd vote for acidic, but seeing as you don't run him...muscle.

Sweet! Action in this thread! Now to respond:

1. I've contemplated putting a set of AKs in the deck. Seems a bit slow though, especially without intuition. Unfortunately there is no Sliver Ringleader (yet... future sight? lol, I can wish, can't I?) so actual card advantage is hard to come by, though we all know how amazing the virtual card advantage from crystalline is.

2. First off I disagree that you need 'a good number" of creatures on the board to win. Muscle/Sinew + Crystalline have won me many a game against board control decks. Not only is this actually a decent clock, but it means that any sweeper won't give them nearly as much card advantage as it normally would. Then you can just sit and build up counters / creatures in hand to either counter a sweeper or simply just lay down the beats the turn after. In terms of proactively dealing with deed / EE (the 2 most common and most devastating board sweepers) we could always take a page out of thresh and run 2-3 maindeck needles, maybe replacing counterspell, or a daze and a counterspell. This of course would hurt our solidarity / fast combo matchups, but trade offs are gona have to be made.

3. I will never play this deck without 8 muscles slivers, and we simply cannot play aggro as well as gobos so cutting blue is completely out of the question too. So I don't see red joining the deck anytime soon... though cautery isn't bad at all.

4. 3 Winged, no question. Not only is it never completely dead (as it's a sliver and can pitch to force) but Winged is almost a win condition against aggro. A lot of times this deck can just sit with 4ish huge, untargetable guys on the board and completely stall the game, countering anything relevant. Then it will drop winged and swing for 20 in 1 turn. This is definately 1 of the 2 ways I beat gobos, the other being a crystalline and a sinew/muscle along with 3-4 free counterspells preventing gobos from doing anything at all. That matchup is actually very interesting, as the games can be completely different depending on which strat you decide to take.

5. No big legacy tourneys in North Cali ftl. I think I'm gona host a small tourney in 2 weeks in which I will most definately play slivers, so I'll let you guys know how I do. I'm not sure many people have taken this deck to large tourneys, though I'm not really sure why not. Seems to be a slightly more agressive threshold that doesn't give a crap bout the GY and beats gobos where is the downside? Some of you people on the eastcoast need to go T8 with this monster.

6. Hrmmmm, Darkheart is pretty frickin sweet. So is Sedge IMO. They both just happen to be the 2nd and 3rd best slivers from the TS block, behind the beast that is Sinew.

I <3 discussion on this thread, let's keep it comin!

Kronicler

[Maverick676]

1. We've tried everything from predict to fact or fiction. Card Advantage generally isn't needed agains't many decks because the slivers themselves make a large portion of your opponents creatures and almost all removal irrelevant. It generates virtual card advantage similar to meddling mage or chalice.

2. Board control decks are very bad matchups for us generally. Maindecked we have to get the turn 4-5 win and use countermagic to keep the board sweepers off the table. (this generally is difficult because decks tend to play threats/disruption in addition to boardsweep). Decks like truffle shuffle just own us. The match is winnable, but very favorable for them. Even postboard Needle and Mage only go so far.

3. To my knowledge no one has tested the UWR version, Once sinew came out we all realized how ridiculous it is to have 8 muscle slivers and decided to stick with the UWG build. Although there are some very good slivers in other colors (Hibernation, Cautery, Acidic) it is just not worth the loss of having 8 muscle slivers.

4. Most builds run three winged, winged is alot like wonder in madness except that he often hits the board as a 3/4 untargetable flyer for 2. But yes this is a key card in many aggro matchups.

5. No one has taken it to a large tournament yet, most of us working on it live on the west coast where this are very few large scale legacy tournaments. However Pinder, Volt, and I will be playing slivers at GP Columbus.

6. Coolest artwork I think has to be Darkheart Sliver, it has a very beautiful color scheme in my opinion. Plus the visible detail on the sliver is just amazing.

[Pinder]

1. Is there a way (or a reason) to fit some form of card advantage in here?

We've tried, and we can't really seem to get it to work well. If you find a way, please tell us.

2. How often do you guys come across board control decks? How do you do against them?

Decks packing heavy board control are just less than stellar matchups for us. We just have to accept that. As far as what we do against them, if they're spells (Wrath, Cataclysm, etc.), we counter them. In the case of Deed and Engineered Explosives, they can always be answered via Needle, or everyone's favorite card, Stifle. But sometimes you can't counter/answer them, and that's hard. You can try and play around them, but it is more difficult because you have to commit more to the board to really be effective.

3. Have you tested a UWR version at all? (You lose muscle, gain cautery...eh)

Not really. We like our 8 Muscles. Of course, it wouldn't be hard to try a different splash, as Muscle Sliver is the only green spell in the deck, but you'd be hard pressed to find a red sliver that does its job as well as Muscle does. If you want to try a different splash, feel free to do so, and let us know how it goes.

4. How many winged do you run? If this is anything like UG madness from back in the day, mass flying just wins games against aggro decks.

We currently run 3. This is a good number, because you can consistently see one, and any extras can be conveniently pitched to Force (or just played if you need more fat). And you're right. There are games that are just a groundpouneder standstill till Winged comes down and you beat for 7-10 a turn. The game ends quickly after that.

5. How many tournaments has this deck actually seen play in? What finishes did you guys get?

Unfortunately, not very many.There isn't a large Legacy presence where we are, and the only chance I have to test really is against the randomness that permeates the Friday night tourney I help run. This is further exacerbated by the fact that I work Saturdays, so whenever there is a larger Legacy event I can't attend. Oh well. I'm currently in the Winter SCG Online Tourney with the deck, though, and I'll let you know how that goes.

As far as the Friday night tourney goes, in 4 rounds I haven't ever gone less than 3-1 with it. This is...less than conclusive, however.

6. What sliver do you think has the coolest artwork? I'd vote for acidic, but seeing as you don't run him...muscle.

Hands down Dearkheart Sliver. I just love the artwork on that one. And it has the distinction of appearing on a pretty good (if out of our colors) sliver. I think Volt is fond of Necrotic.

As for one we run, I'm partial to Crystalline. And Plated looks pretty cool too.

edit: wow, three people answered the questions all at once. And we all like Darkheart. Sweet.

[Volt]

Bless you people for making the thread interesting again. I was going to say a bunch of the same stuff that Kronickler, Mav, and Pinder just said, but now I don't have to.

[Solpugid]

As somewhat of a reply to my own questions...

I contemplated the UWR splash, and realized how subpar it would be. I LOVE cautery (stemming from my love f goblin legionnaire), but red offers little else. I thought of pyroclasm for a bit...until I realized I was a moron. So, UWG it is.

I also thought about the possibility of card advantage and here's the ideas I came up with:

Accumulated knowledge: thresh runs twice as many cantrips and still can't use it well...so no.

Predict: Not enough cantrips to abuse it.

Fact or fiction: A lot of mana, but I did see worship run in this deck for a while; was worship too expensive too keep, or too narrow?

Mnemonic sliver: Where's the room? And the 2-mana sac. cost is a little high.

Dormant sliver: He'd be good if you could somehow get rid of him later, but you don't have enough ways to do that. Plus, he costs 4.

Ok, so I'm as stumped as you guys are. Ah well, crystalline is enough for me. Oh, and about the artwork, I forgot about darkheart. I think I'd go with him as well, though it kinda creeped me out that he has compund eyes when other slivers don't have eyes at all.

[Volt]

I also thought about the possibility of card advantage and here's the ideas I came up with:

Accumulated knowledge: thresh runs twice as many cantrips and still can't use it well...so no.

Predict: Not enough cantrips to abuse it.

Fact or fiction: A lot of mana, but I did see worship run in this deck for a while; was worship too expensive too keep, or too narrow?

Mnemonic sliver: Where's the room? And the 2-mana sac. cost is a little high.

Dormant sliver: He'd be good if you could somehow get rid of him later, but you don't have enough ways to do that. Plus, he costs 4.

Ok, so I'm as stumped as you guys are. Ah well, crystalline is enough for me.

Yeah, this is one of those well-covered topics. There just aren't any draw spells good enough to make the cut. If only Synapse Sliver cost 4 instead of 5. This deck would be buh-roken.

[Pinder]

Yeah, this is one of those well-covered topics. There just aren't any draw spells good enough to make the cut. If only Synapse Sliver cost 4 instead of 5. This deck would be buh-roken.

Even at 4, the cost would be a tad prohobtive. If they made it a 1/1 for 2U with that ability, it would be the tits.

But alas, they didn't and dreaming isn't getting us anywhere. We'll just have to settle for virtual card advantage until they give us a ringleader (Future Sight? Maybe?).

[georgjorge]

First off I disagree that you need 'a good number" of creatures on the board to win. Muscle/Sinew + Crystalline have won me many a game against board control decks. Not only is this actually a decent clock, but it means that any sweeper won't give them nearly as much card advantage as it normally would. Then you can just sit and build up counters / creatures in hand to either counter a sweeper or simply just lay down the beats the turn after. In terms of proactively dealing with deed / EE (the 2 most common and most devastating board sweepers) we could always take a page out of thresh and run 2-3 maindeck needles, maybe replacing counterspell, or a daze and a counterspell. This of course would hurt our solidarity / fast combo matchups, but trade offs are gona have to be made.

If you are only concerned about Deed and Explosives, Needle could be fine (although I would prefer going up to four Stifles before I put Needles in the SB). However, if you are also concerned about Wrath or Damnation or Earthquake or Clasm, may I suggest Caller of the Claw ? I don't know the deck well enough to judge if it can consistently reach three mana on turn three, but it seems pretty good here, as against most sweepers you WILL be able to keep three mana open, and it can even be good in matchups against heavy creature decks, replacing your killed Slivers with (although un-Sliver-like) 2/2s.

[Maverick676]

If you are only concerned about Deed and Explosives, Needle could be fine (although I would prefer going up to four Stifles before I put Needles in the SB). However, if you are also concerned about Wrath or Damnation or Earthquake or Clasm, may I suggest Caller of the Claw ? I don't know the deck well enough to judge if it can consistently reach three mana on turn three, but it seems pretty good here, as against most sweepers you WILL be able to keep three mana open, and it can even be good in matchups against heavy creature decks, replacing your killed Slivers with (although un-Sliver-like) 2/2s.

Well we already run needle and stifle but thanks for the tip.

If you can keep 3 mana open for caller of the claw, then why not just play a counterspell? or second sunrise. Either is a better option. Against creature heavy decks there is no need for a crappy elf that replaces good creatures with grizzly bears.

In short you're retarded and should go kill yourself for the betterment of mankind.

Warned for flames. Cut that shit out. - Zilla

[Volt]

In short you're retarded and should go kill yourself for the betterment of mankind.

Now that's what I call a measured, appropriate response. Did somebody burn your toast this morning, Mav?

[Pinder]

I might have overreacted a tiny bit. I am just so sick of stupid suggestions by people who have obviously not read they thread, or even the primer on the first page.

Well, they haven't read the primer on the first page because there isn't a primer on the first page right now. Because of all the rapid changes we were making to the deck, it was hard to update an entire primer. So I took it off (don't worry, I saved it) and just posted the most updated decklists.

And the thread is 46 fucking pages long. Of course people aren't going to read it all, especially when roughly half of it is people being stupid or you flaming people for being stupid.

Now that we've largely settled on a list, perhaps we should start writing one again.