[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Eldariel]

Burning Wish is a non-goblin card and therefore bad in this deck. Honestly, the only situation where Krosan Grip is actually better than Naturalize is against MUC (which is an auto win anyways) and Trix (To kill their Illusion of Grandeur). If other nasty artifacts (or enchantments) comes up that blue can seriously abuse then Grip will probably become more useful, but without that Naturalize costing 2 is just better.

Err, or against any WU, UB or such control that plays troublesome enchantments (á la Humility, Engineered Plague, Moat) and protects it with counters, or anything with troublesome artifacts and counters (Ux Fish, Faerie Stompy, etc.). Also forces suboptimal plays off Jittes if they don't want you to risk losing counters, prevents waiting on Cursed Scroll till EoT, prevents using Aether Vial as a combat trick, prevents waiting on Ravagers, prevents responding with cycle-Rift, etc. The split second is SO strong. I really don't get these 'onlys' of yours. Legacy is an OPEN format with LOTS of randomness, so how X works against randomness matters. A lot. That's the real advantage of Krosan Grip and the real reason we don't just play Ray of Revelation instead.

[Tacosnape]

prevents using Aether Vial as a combat trick,

Er. Exactly what Aether Vial-packing deck are you boarding Krosan Grip in against? Bad white decks that haven't figured out that Aether Vial and Plains have no business being in the same deck? Ditto for bad Survival builds?

Burning Wish is a non-goblin card and therefore bad in this deck.

So we should take out Aether Vial, Wasteland, and Mountain? And replace the sideboard cards with Goblins? Sounds like a plan.

Actually, the highest placing Goblin decks over time have had maindeck cards besides Land, Vial, and Goblins more often than not. What card this is can vary. Usually it's Swords to Plowshares or Pyrokinesis. Sometimes it's Disenchant, Naturalize/Grip, Jitte, Therapy, or even Crypt.

I'm not altogether sure I'm violently opposed to the concept of Burning Wish, actually. It's not like this deck has a hell of a lot better to do on turn two. There's plenty of targets available.

-Hull Breach (Hit maindecked plagues and Jittes), Land Grant (Grab a third land or green source if you're short on land,)
-Reverent Silence (Own double plague/enchantress/moat stuff. Costs 0 Mana.)
-Anarchy (wreck pro-red based white decks)
-Land Grant (Finds a Taiga when you need more land)
-Tsunami (Rawr!)

I don't think it would necessarily be optimal to run Burning Wish, but there'd be no more auto-conceding to cards Goblins can't deal with (Soli-Con, maindeck Plague, etc.)

[Gekoratel]

Actually, the highest placing Goblin decks over time have had maindeck cards besides Land, Vial, and Goblins more often than not. What card this is can vary. Usually it's Swords to Plowshares or Pyrokinesis. Sometimes it's Disenchant, Naturalize/Grip, Jitte, Therapy, or even Crypt.

I tend to agree with this statement, once you have a critical mass of Goblins in your deck adding 3-4 other slots is fine. The difference of flopping 2.2 to 2.4 Goblins off Ringleader is not that big a difference. Personally I've been running 3x MD Pyrokinesis in every version of Goblins I play because it is useful against all the random creature decks in the format as well as the obvious mirror uses.

Also by having a card that is generally in the SB in the MD you free up more slots in the board so you can dedicate more slots for different matchups. Most sideboards I build begin with 4 Chalice, 4 Pillar, 3-4 Enchantment/Artifact hate and then move from their. If I didn't run Pyro MD then I would be missing another 3-4 slots in the board to mess around with.

[SillyMetalGAT]

I'm not altogether sure I'm violently opposed to the concept of Burning Wish, actually. It's not like this deck has a hell of a lot better to do on turn two. There's plenty of targets available.

Your right about that, but it has a lot better things to do on turn 3. Plus, if you swing Lackey into a Warchief, your options open up very widely. Burning Wish is really too slow for the deck. Sure it helps deal with the E. Plague problem, but thats what a sideboards for.

[Eldariel]

Er. Exactly what Aether Vial-packing deck are you boarding Krosan Grip in against? Bad white decks that haven't figured out that Aether Vial and Plains have no business being in the same deck? Ditto for bad Survival builds?

Affinity, Vial WW (no, it's not necessarily suboptimal as it can reach the coveted Wasteland-immunity and overall have a rather strong gameplan), Vial Fish (y'know those Standstill-variants, they're bound to show up and they pack other targets too like Jittes, SB Plagues if black's there, etc.), Survival (I'm not going to argue whether it's good or bad for Survival to run it, fact is that some do) and a dozen I'm probably forgetting. Also, if it was MDd, it'd of course have some implications in the mirror too.

[Tacosnape]

Affinity, Vial WW (no, it's not necessarily suboptimal as it can reach the coveted Wasteland-immunity and overall have a rather strong gameplan), Vial Fish (y'know those Standstill-variants, they're bound to show up and they pack other targets too like Jittes, SB Plagues if black's there, etc.), Survival (I'm not going to argue whether it's good or bad for Survival to run it, fact is that some do) and a dozen I'm probably forgetting. Also, if it was MDd, it'd of course have some implications in the mirror too.

Ok. I forgot about Affinity.

Still, in addition to every deck you listed being better without Aether Vial (except for -maybe- Affinity), every deck you listed has at least 1-2 targets that are far more likely to be Krosan Gripped, so much so that I'd likely hold the Grip. Vial WW will bring in Jittes, Vial Fish will bring in Jittes -and- Plagues if it's running black, Survival has Survival (and often Plagues).

Again, Affinity's the exception, as Affinity's got Ravagers and Plating, but if the opponent's color-screwed, hitting the Vial would actually be an amazing play here. Some Affinity decks pack Plague, though, which is something to watch for.

Your right about that, but it has a lot better things to do on turn 3. Plus, if you swing Lackey into a Warchief, your options open up very widely. Burning Wish is really too slow for the deck. Sure it helps deal with the E. Plague problem, but thats what a sideboards for.

I suppose I agree. I'm not saying I'd ever run Burning Wish or anything, but you have to keep in mind that a lot of the things you Burning Wished for you wouldn't play on turn 3. Land Grant would be played immediately (or later, but still for no cost) and Reverent Silence could be played at will. Anarchy wouldn't be played until turn four (or later, if you wanted to set things up a bit more.) Hull Breach would only be grabbed if your turn three play was in jeopardy (Active Jitte/Plague on board). Another option is Shattering Spree, which Goblins can abuse pretty well.

[Awesomator]

krosan grip is ALSO better against survival of the fittest, faery stompy, jitte (not giving them the chance to use it if your opponent misplays or has another gameplan), SDT, random counterbalance variants also, random landstill decks. It's just a way better card, and in a 23 land deck, I'm sure you can find another colorless source of mana. Burning wish is a cool idea, but it's too slow and has bad synergy with the deck and the overall goblin plan.

[Phantom]

I agree that Grip is superior in the green splash. The only time I considered Burning Wish was in the black splash, since it has such devastating synergy with Therapy, but that would mean running 2 non Goblin cards, which is probably a bad idea. In the green and white splash, Wish gives you little to nothing vs. Combo, and to me that is its swan song.




Moving in a different direction, I recently found out over on the Card Interactions and Questions board, that Boom // Bust existed. Basically, there are many situations where the card can act as a 1R sinkhole (by targeting your fetch or your waste). Even if we do sac a land, that what Lackey and Vial are for, right? I'm wondering if this isn't the card that mono red was looking for. The hole @ 2cc has been previously discussed, and mono red lives and dies (at least post board) on it's mana disruption.

For over a year now, decks have been fighting Goblins Wastes by going fetch heavy and basic light (see Thresh, Fish, Zoo, etc). Goblins has basically responded with the wonderful Port, but that can't always be relied on.

As for Bust, clearly that isn't the reason to play the card, but I've hard casted plenty of Gang-Bangs in my day, so ramping up to 6 mana and laying a devastating 'geddon isn't out of the question.

Anyway, I think it deserves a hard look. Does anyone else?

[Tacosnape]

Anyway, I think it deserves a hard look. Does anyone else?

Maybe, maybe not. It kind of depends on your philosophy with Goblins.

Decks are more recently packing high amounts of land under the assumption that Lackey and Vial are going to be stopped more often than not, being ready to hardcast things. In this case I don't think Boom//Bust is much of an idea, Even with the ability to hit your Waste or Fetch (It may be a 1R spell, but you need 3 lands to pull it off, and Wasteland has to have a target to maximize that.) Besides, if Lackey/Vial fail, what you need is a way to handle that Rancored Kird Ape that's hitting you in the mouth.

On the flipside, if you're playing the sort of philosophy that maximizes the damage you do when Lackey or Vial -does- stick (8 Mana disruptors, maximum Siege-Gangs, slightly less land counting on Lackey/Vial/Chief to accelerate you into stuff), Boom/Bust simply takes that strategy and advances it a little further, allowing less effective Sinkholes or Armageddons to be run in a deck that could crave them.

[Phantom]

Even with the ability to hit your Waste or Fetch (It may be a 1R spell, but you need 3 lands to pull it off

Hmmm. I had not considered that.

Dammit. That is certainly going to hurt it's effectiveness.

[Bane of the Living]

Machinus is an advocate of 4x MD Goblin Tinkerer, which solves most of those issues, while still being a Goblin. Really, the issue with MD cards that aren't goblins is their tendancy to decrease the potency of your Ringleader draws. It may be worth some testing.

Concerning Tin Street, hes way better against decks like TES that play things like Chrome Mox, Tinkerer isnt worth playing in that situation. Hes great against any combo deck that doesnt have artifacts too since w/ the chief he's 2 damage for 1 mana. The fact that hes ridiculously better against the mirror downright smothers your love for Tinkerbell.

[Cait_Sith]

I need a quick opinion of my R/g build.
// Lands
4 [R] Taiga
4 [TSP] Mountain (1)
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [8E] Goblin King
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis

Everything else is pretty much standard (3 SGC, 4 everything else) So I didn't include it.

My questions are:

Silver Bullet Hooligan - Should it be 3 Hooligans instead? I can replace the Crucible's in the SB with the other 2, it really is just a holder for the moment.

Should I add some Skarrg, the Rage Pits for extra damage and pseudo evasion? I was thinking in the place of 2 Wasteland or 2 Port.

I have CotV for combo, should I try REB instead?

[Awesomator]

Sharpshooter is ok. I personally like 2-3 tin street. Goblin King is no longer good now that it's a goblin. 23 Land seems to work best, and I would definitely keep all my wastelands and ports. If i were you, I would replace king with a mountain and sharpshooter for another tin street.
My Sideboard:
3x krosan grip
3x pyrokinesis
4x cotv
3x pyrostatic pillar
2x patron of the akki

I like patron better than crucible, but if you want to keep crucible, Patron is probably what you would cut.

[Cait_Sith]

How is king BAD because he is a Goblin? He can be tutored by Matron and Ringleader. He can help play around Engineered Plague until you find a Krosan Grip and he is good anti goblin tech.

Also, the reason I don't like Patron of the Akki is he is a creature that I would need vs Plague, but he is untutorable.

[Cavius The Great]

I need a quick opinion of my R/g build.
// Lands
4 [R] Taiga
4 [TSP] Mountain (1)
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [8E] Goblin King
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis

Everything else is pretty much standard (3 SGC, 4 everything else) So I didn't include it.

My questions are:

Silver Bullet Hooligan - Should it be 3 Hooligans instead? I can replace the Crucible's in the SB with the other 2, it really is just a holder for the moment.

Should I add some Skarrg, the Rage Pits for extra damage and pseudo evasion? I was thinking in the place of 2 Wasteland or 2 Port.

I have CotV for combo, should I try REB instead?

My Cavius Sligh deck runs 4 Tin-Street Hooligan maindecked and 4 Krosan Grip in the board. So don't think that I got the idea from you once I finally post my build. I've had that idea for a very long time now.

[Awesomator]

if your opponent has two plagues out, king dies too. I used to play king when he was a lord. Patron is untutorable, but that and grip give you five outs vs plague. King in the mirror can hurt really bad, vs a good goblin player, you should never really have many goblins in play anyway. The 23 land IMO is much more important than having a MD King. King in the board wouldnt help much. Aside of all that, plague doesn't really hurt that bad, unless they get multiples or have a lot of other removal.

[Eldariel]

How is king BAD because he is a Goblin? He can be tutored by Matron and Ringleader. He can help play around Engineered Plague until you find a Krosan Grip and he is good anti goblin tech.

Because he's affected by Plague. He dies to literally any Darkblast, Lava Dart, Plague or any other removal and he can do NOTHING against double Plague. Even multiple Kings tend to just die to Bolts or such (not to mention, it's hard to get multiples into play in due schedule in the first place; generally you could and should kill your opponent with that amount of mana and cards, provided that the slots were well-spent). Pyromancer is better anti-Plague tech too since he can end the game very effectively with one Plague in game. Patron does that too, but isn't tutorable. Still, tutors tend to be too slow against Plague anyways, which is why Patron is so good especially as it's so random meaning that it'll win you games both due to not showing up when opponent prepares for it, and due to showing up when opponent doesn't. If you must have a Goblin-answer to Plague, fit 4 Goblin Goons in between MD and SB. They'll be big even after 2 Plagues and enable all your Goblin-effects like Gempalm, Matron, Ringleader and company even with 2 Plagues in play.

[Cait_Sith]

Right now I have 3 MD Hooligans, they are just that great to draw. I placed the king and Sharpshooter SB. I see what you mean about problems with Plague, and I will try out Patron of the Akki.

Right now my SB is:

1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Krosan Grip
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Patron of the Akki

[Awesomator]

Thats a very good sideboard. However, if there is a lot of combo in your meta, I would highly suggest the 4th chalice, otherwise sharpshooter is a great card.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Maybe it was already discussed and I missed it, but I'm curious as to how you folks deal with Tivadar's Crusade. My assumptions were basically:

1. Try to keep 1WW unavailable.
2. Win first.
3. Don't overcommit.

I mean, there's nothing like Krosan Grip for white sorceries, is there?