[OLD] UGw Threshold

[troopatroop]

What can you do with your stifles against TES? I'd rather play stifles and meddling mage and won't remove meddling from the maindeck for stifle.

Tendrils or Empty the Warrens? Their win conditions that often have 9 cards to set them up, resulting in massive card advantage when they're Stifled?

[Citrus-God]

What can you do with your stifles against TES? I'd rather play stifles and meddling mage and won't remove meddling from the maindeck for stifle.

Stifles only serves one function here, and it's just stopping Storm, and that is about it. The whole deck should already be equiped to fight TES already, with MM or not.

[Adan]

Stifles only serves one function here, and it's just stopping Storm, and that is about it. The whole deck should already be equiped to fight TES already, with MM or not.

But with meddling Mage you are already prepared for TES a lot, especially when you are running 4 of them in the mainboard (what I would do if your Meta is full of TES). But I wouldn't maindeck Stifle only because you want to beat TES. I would go on running Pithing Needle as it got more of an allrounder.
Because Stifle has only 1 purpose and I think that's not enough.

[Radley]

But with meddling Mage you are already prepared for TES a lot, especially when you are running 4 of them in the mainboard (what I would do if your Meta is full of TES). But I wouldn't maindeck Stifle only because you want to beat TES. I would go on running Pithing Needle as it got more of an allrounder.
Because Stifle has only 1 purpose and I think that's not enough.

Actually, you can stall your opponent's LED and/or infernal tutor(if allowed to target hellbent). Is threshold also a triggered ability? Is yes, stifle is also good against it.

Personally, I don't think stifle is all that good against storm, they will usually have some more mana floating to continue casting till they get another kill card.

If I can play meddling mage, stifle and pithing needle, then it's better.

[overlord95]

Actually, you can stall your opponent's LED and/or infernal tutor(if allowed to target hellbent).

No you actually cant stop either of those with stifle. LED is a mana abilty and someone correct me here if im wrong but hellbent is a replacement effect that checks upon resolution.

Is threshold also a triggered ability? Is yes, stifle is also good against it.

******** is a static ability and hence cant be stifled.

Personally, I don't think stifle is all that good against storm, they will usually have some more mana floating to continue casting till they get another kill card.

These type of situations tend to only happen if your opponet is playing Solidarity and even then if your opponet is at the point in there combo where there Brain Freezeing you probably already lost the game anyways.

If I can play meddling mage, stifle and pithing needle, then it's better.

Can you explain how Stifle becomes better when your playing Mage and Needle.

[Radley]

Are you just messing about? Read my last post again and maybe you can understand it. It's better to play stifle, meddling mage and pithing needle than just one of them. It's like packing in more combo disruption but as you said that stifle is useless against LED and other stuffs then you should side it out for pithing needles.

IGGy pop gets 2 tendrils before killing opponent. TES I guess does the same or combination of empty the warren/tendrils.

[Ragnarok]

I tested it for a long time with 4 stifles but that is over-kill it is useless but 3 is enough, the card is never dead and you can pitch it on a fow. But what about umezawa's jitte maindeck just 1 random? I haven't tested it yet, but i am considering it. In U/G/w threshold it gives you a better aggro match up, because in general U/G/w threshold is more control than U/G/r threshold. When it resolves it keeps your mages easier alive it could make them even a big blocker. And it makes your enforcers even more dangerous. So what do you guys think of that?

[overlord95]

Are you just messing about? Read my last post again and maybe you can understand it. It's better to play stifle, meddling mage and pithing needle than just one of them.

No im actually not just messing about.

Actually, you can stall your opponent's LED and/or infernal tutor(if allowed to target hellbent). Is threshold also a triggered ability? Is yes, stifle is also good against it.

Personally, I don't think stifle is all that good against storm, they will usually have some more mana floating to continue casting till they get another kill card.

If I can play meddling mage, stifle and pithing needle, then it's better.

No where in this post does it explain why stifle is more valueable then it already is in this match up becasue you are playing Needle and Mage. If what your trying to get at is it adds more redundancy to the deck I fail to see how Needle is at all of any value in any storm based combo match up.

It's like packing in more combo disruption but as you said that stifle is useless against LED and other stuffs then you should side it out for pithing needles.

Pithing Needle is just awful in the combo match up they have few(all of which are fetch lands)to zero targets. On a side note Pithing Needle cant stop LED sence its a mana ability(If your really hard pressed to stop LED you could try Null Rod)

IGGy pop gets 2 tendrils before killing opponent. TES I guess does the same or combination of empty the warren/tendrils.

One of the beauties of ******** is that it combines a quick clock with lots of disruption, in the majority of situations against decks like these is that they dont have the luxury of time to set up something like double Tendrills/ETW.

EDIT:

But what about jitte maindeck just 1 random? I haven't tested it yet but i am considering it. When it resolves it keeps your mages easier alive it could make them even a big blocker. And it makes your enforcers even more dangerous. So what do you guys think of that?

I would really love to play Jitte in ******** but the problem with this plan is that your only playing 10 creatures(4 Bears, 4 Goose, and 2 Enforcers) and 14 if you count mage and even then you cant strap a Jitte onto a Goose (this brings the total # of Jitteable creatures down to 6 without Mage and 10 with Mage). On the Enforcer note if you resovled Super Man Jitte is just over kill at that point.

In U/G/w threshold it gives you just a better aggro match up, because in general U/G/w threshold is more control than U/G/r threshold.

If your plaing NoVa style ******** your only replaceing the Swords for Bolts, Enforcer for Dragon, and make the apporiate changes to the mana base. No where in this transaction does this make the deck more aggro the its counter parts.

[Radley]

I fail. Null rod it is then.

I was saying it is better to play lots of combo disruption instead of using 1. I hope you understand that.

[overlord95]

I was saying it is better to play lots of combo disruption instead of using 1. I hope you understand that.

I can understand that, but the problem with playing more disruption comeing out of the side board is the fact that your just wasteing spaces for a match up where your already favored to win, as opposed to playing cards that can potentially help you in match ups where you aren't favored.

[Ragnarok]

You are right about the fact that it in some in you favor, but the problem with TES and also with Spanish inquisition is that it is to fast to build up a hand with counters it all depends on you first hand, playing against solidarity gives you enough to time to build up your hand. And if you win the die roll versus one of the two first mentioned decks and you play a blue based land, go. Then stifle is going to safe your ass, more often than you should think. Like i said before stifle mainboard is never a dead card. I don't think it is a waste of space if you play G2 and you boarded your needles in and you still kept you stifles inboard then you can paralyze in some cases a whole deck.

[Radley]

I agree. Stifle is never a dead card almost all decks. Against goblins, stifle is really effective because there's alot of cards you can use it against. Wastelad, matron, ringleader, aether vial, modular of affinity, Fetchlands, and the list goes on..

[Ragnarok]

I tested it for a long time with 4 stifles but that is over-kill it is useless but 3 is enough, the card is never dead and you can pitch it on a fow. But what about umezawa's jitte maindeck just 1 random? I haven't tested it yet, but i am considering it. In U/G/w threshold it gives you a better aggro match up, because in general U/G/w threshold is more control than U/G/r threshold. When it resolves it keeps your mages easier alive it could make them even a big blocker. And it makes your enforcers even more dangerous. So what do you guys think of that?

But what about this?

[Bardo]

I agree. Stifle is never a dead card almost all decks. Against goblins, stifle is really effective because there's alot of cards you can use it against. Wastelad, matron, ringleader, aether vial, modular of affinity, Fetchlands, and the list goes on..

Obviously, Stifle is a fine card, but it's not the be-all, end-all many are making it out to be. Principally, unless you're using it on a fetchland, it's purely reactive. You need to have it in hand, with mana open and a relevant trigger on the stack to counter something.

I'm not saying that Stifling a Ringleader or Matron isn't sweet, but you're still just barely breaking even on the trade. In most cases, you still have to contend with whatever created the trigger in the first place. SGC will still hit the board and can nug you, Ringleader is still going swing, Matron is still on the board, Incinerator will still draw a card (you can Stifle the card draw trigger or the 'kill a guy' trigger, but not both), etc. The main thing that Stifle nets you on occasion is a bit of tempo, as it often makes Goblins' plays mana-inefficient. Like a 1/1 for 2R? Not so good. A hasty 2/2 for 3R? Ditto.

Thresh is already strong against most forms of combo (particularly the ones that run MD Meddling Mage), so I don't know how much more overboard the deck needs to go to retain its edge. Stifling fetchlands seems like random gravy, since the deck runs no other form of LD, unlike Landstill which can use Stifle much more effectively on that front in conjunction with Wasteland, with or without Crucible.

Anyway, those are just some thoughts on Stifle. It's never "bad," but often never "great" (unlike Daze, etc.)--just serviceable, which I'm not sure is what we need.

This said, I do have a few in my Sideboard from a few months back--but I haven't played the deck in the last few months--I'm mostly playing U/G/B decks these days.

[Happy Gilmore]

Obviously, Stifle is a fine card, but it's not the be-all, end-all many are making it out to be. Principally, unless you're using it on a fetchland, it's purely reactive. You need to have it in hand, with mana open and a relevant trigger on the stack to counter something.

I'm not saying that Stifling a Ringleader or Matron isn't sweet, but you're still just barely breaking even on the trade. In most cases, you still have to contend with whatever created the trigger in the first place. SGC will still hit the board and can nug you, Ringleader is still going swing, Matron is still on the board, Incinerator will still draw a card (you can Stifle the card draw trigger or the 'kill a guy' trigger, but not both), etc. The main thing that Stifle nets you on occasion is a bit of tempo, as it often makes Goblins' plays mana-inefficient. Like a 1/1 for 2R? Not so good. A hasty 2/2 for 3R? Ditto.

Thresh is already strong against most forms of combo (particularly the ones that run MD Meddling Mage), so I don't know how much more overboard the deck needs to go to retain its edge. Stifling fetchlands seems like random gravy, since the deck runs no other form of LD, unlike Landstill which can use Stifle much more effectively on that front in conjunction with Wasteland, with or without Crucible.

Anyway, those are just some thoughts on Stifle. It's never "bad," but often never "great" (unlike Daze, etc.)--just serviceable, which I'm not sure is what we need.

This said, I do have a few in my Sideboard from a few months back--but I haven't played the deck in the last few months--I'm mostly playing U/G/B decks these days.

Stifle does nothing to slow down TES/Iggy pop/Solidarity before they use their finishing spell. Solidarity at this point should have enough counters and Remands that it doesn't matter, TES/Iggy pop can prevent you from using Stifle in the first place (Layline/Chant/Duress). The best match up for stifle is actually against Goblins, but even there it is mediocre. I used to think that Stifle was the best spell besides MM against combo, but Counterbalance has proven to be just sick. If it resolves with a Top in play it doesn't even matter if they have a Defense Grid. Not to mention that countering spells with Counterbalance is pure card advantage and does not add to storm.

To be honest I have even been tempted to run the Counterbalance engine in the main deck over the counterspells.

[Bardo]

To be honest I have even been tempted to run the Counterbalance engine in the main deck over the counterspells.

Yep, me too. Counterspell has always been my least favorite counter in UGW Thresh and I've considered adding in two Counterbalance in their place for a few weeks after I saw the success of it in Mad Zur's UGR

U/G/w Threshold with Counterbalance

4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
3 Daze

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

For those who hate Mental Note, just replace it with Portent or whatever.

Or maybe you can put the pieces in the sideboard. Dunno. Thoughts?

[Anarky87]

Yep, me too. Counterspell has always been my least favorite counter in UGW Thresh and I've considered adding in two Counterbalance in their place for a few weeks after I saw the success of it in Mad Zur's UGR

U/G/w Threshold with Counterbalance

4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
3 Daze

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

For those who hate Mental Note, just replace it with Portent or whatever.

Or maybe you can put the pieces in the sideboard. Dunno. Thoughts?

For awhile I was trying out just a straight port of MadZur's red thresh with the Counterbalance pieces in the board, doing the -1 Vision -1 Portent for 2 Tops MD, because I didn't like losing StP and Enforcer. The only thing I then didn't like was that white has no real good answer to Goblins outside of just boarding in a bunch of Hydro/BEB's and Stifles or hoping they don't keep you off WW for a Sorcery speed Crusade.

I haven't tried Dueling Grounds or Crawlspace, but it seems they could just amass an army and ping you out with SGC, which you would have to Needle or StP. It would also clog up the ground, meaning you would have to hope Enforcer shows up and doesn't get Incinerated. I like Pyroclasms ability to just erase their board so you can beat through.

[Radley]

Yep, me too. Counterspell has always been my least favorite counter in UGW Thresh and I've considered adding in two Counterbalance in their place for a few weeks after I saw the success of it in Mad Zur's UGR

U/G/w Threshold with Counterbalance

4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
3 Daze

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

For those who hate Mental Note, just replace it with Portent or whatever.

Or maybe you can put the pieces in the sideboard. Dunno. Thoughts?

Do you think enlightened tutor should be fitted in the deck? It can tutor a counterbalance or divining top. So maybe you can make it like 2 counterbalance, 2 divining top, 2 enlightened tutor.

[Bardo]

Do you think enlightened tutor should be fitted in the deck? It can tutor a counterbalance or divining top. So maybe you can make it like 2 counterbalance, 2 divining top, 2 enlightened tutor.

I'm not a fan of the card-disadvantage tutors in a deck like this to begin with; but I considered Trinket Mage, vis-a-vis Top, Explosives and maybe a lone Pithing Needle in there as well. That should be tested at some point, but I don't see the need to explore ETutor.

But honestly, in trying to make the deck too kind to Counterbalance, I'm afraid of weakening its overall power.

[Citrus-God]

@Bardo: I think you should cut Mages. Counterbalance does everything Meddling Mage does now, and Meddling Mage and Counterbalance in the same deck just seem kinda win-more. I'd like to see the 4th Daze in this deck, as it can also be quite awesome as well, since it gives you a very strong early game edge, and the fact Mental Note compliments the Dazes very well. I also like it right now because you have 11 ways to find the pieces and set-up the Counterbalance combo, and 8 ways to protect it while your tapped out. And since your you'd rather tap yourself out to play cantrips to aseemble stuff rather than play your Meddling Mage and rely on your next topdeck being something random. I will admit, it's usually better to have Mage than Counterbalance against Goblins.


But if you must know, my project right now is a UGw Mental Note Thresh deck.... no really, and it use's Counterbalance maindecked as well. I'm sure I showed Anarky87 this deck already via PM on TMD, but it went through some changes...


// Lands 18
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island


// Creatures 11
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer


// Spells 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Portent
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mental Note
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares


// Sideboard 15
3 Hydroblast
3 Stifle
3 Pithing Needle
3 Naturalize
3 Nantuko Monastery

Yes, because my maindeck is weak, I make up for it in siding in 12 cards against Goblins... Against Machinus Goblins though, I might leave Counterbalance in since it takes down Tinkerers, Piledrivers, extra Vials, REB, and Tormod's Crypt.

@Radley: You dont really need Enlighten Tutor since you can just find those pieces and just assemble the whole combo on turn 3-4 consistently. You are running cantrips, and with fetchlands, each fetch you make is like seeing a card; it thins your deck. So you dont really need E-Tutor. You can however use E-Tutor as a SB card as 3-ofs, and a bunch of silver bullet 1-ofs. It's quite an awesome plan IMO.


@Stifle v.s. Medlding Mage debate: How Meddling Mages does it take to fight TES? 2. Honestly, if you want me to be honest, the only card I'm afraid of is just Xantid Swarm. You guys have to learn that countering a Dark Ritual can do so much for you, since that's a power accelerent in Legacy. In T1, countering a Ritual is somewhat a pointless decision considering all the other accelerents played in that format. Stifle can be good, but you'd rather just fight through them when they combo out rather than just waiting for them to just throw their win condition at you.