The whole point of adding threats shouldn't have anything to do with the deck's kill speed. It should have to do with the deck's tendency to keel over and die to dedicated creature control decks like Landstill.Originally Posted by Clark Kant
As much as I am a dedicated proponent of Juggernaut in most decks like this, he doesn't belong in a deck that is starving like an ethiopian child for blue cards to imprint on Chrome Mox and pitch to Force of Will. Furthermore, I don't think any creatures that cost 4 belong in this deck, as the manabase is fragile and the curve is designed to support 2-3CC spells and excess mana for equip costs (Jitte's your 4 Drop, SOFI can be a 5-Drop or a 3/2 Split.)
As for the big creatures dying very often to removal, that depends largely on the deck you're playing against. Chalice of the Void shuts down STP, Bolt, Chain, and so forth. Cloud of Faeries and the other 1/1 guys soak up Diabolic Edicts for your other guys. Trinket Mage grabs the Needle that stops Pernicious Deed from eating the inside of your face. Sword of Fire and Ice stops Gempalm Incinerator, Flametongue Kavu, and, should it ever be relevant, Psionic Blasts in the mirror. What other removal are you worried about that isn't covered there, exactly? Vindicate? Fair enough. Vindicate D. Sea Drake. Counterspell/Force/etc? Admitted, again, sucks.
You're complaining about all the artifact and enchantment removal prevalent in the format, and whether you're right about that or not, that alone should be a reason for you not to be packing Juggernaut.
A third megathreat would indeed be nice, but right now there just isn't one. Sea Drake and Serendib are the top of the line, and all else pales in comparison. The reason Sword of Fire and Ice and Jitte are so nice is that they turn all your threats into legitimate ones. And if all else fails, I've won games by beating face with three Cloud of Faeries and a Faerie Conclave.
Also, the equipment you refer to as "Only seven" is actually a rather large number, especially when you can protect them with Force of Will or dig into them with Thirst for Knowledge. Want better clocks? Toss a Bonesplitter in the deck and Trinket Mage for it.
Don't take this as a flame. I just disagree with you is all.
But where did you get the idea that adding 4 artifacts suddenly makes FoW and Chrome Mox unplayble. I've been running an extra 4 artifacts forever now and I've never had much of a problem with having enough blue. Thanks to the Islandcyclers I've been running 22 blue which is plenty. And with my recent changes...
-1 Misdirection
-1 Top
-1 Cloud of Fairies (I hate seeing them in multiples)
+1 Islandcycler (not great but handy vs. wastelands, and let you get away with 13 blue sources while being pitchable)
+2 Weatherseed Fairies
Also considering replacing the 3 Cloud of Fairies with 3 Looter il Kor since the Islandcyclers and Weatherseed Fairies have replaced Cloud of Fairies as the main card I end up pitching to FoW and Chrome Mox (provided I'm not mana screwed or playing versus goblins).
i'm up to 23 blue.
Lets look at how the deck plays out. It only has chalice in it's opening hand 40% of the games.
This isn't a slow control deck. It's a very aggresive deck that wants to apply pressure early.
If it doesn't have a chalice, it's best turn one plays is a turn one Drake or Efreet. Sometimes, thats the best play even if you do have Chalice. And it's a solid play considering that the most popular (make up 40-50% of most metas) and best decks in the format by and far are goblins and thresh. Thresh you need to apply pressure on fast if you don't have an opening chalice because the longer the game goes the more cards it sees, the more countermagic it draws and its creatures suddenly become monsters, the more. Goblins you want to have a shot at racing which you certainly wont if you play this like a slow control deck.
But if your threat it gets killed by any your opponents removal it can make your deck very slow.
So you keep running 8 actual threats and lots of 1/1s and I'll run 4 more 4 turn clocks that force your opponents to find answers or counter only to let you resolve chalice and draw into more threats.
I can't believe your argument against artifact creatures is that someone will disenchant them. Most decks side in 4 disenchant effects against you. Disenchant is usually used on equipment and chalices. So what if one of your artifact threats gets disenchanted? That means your equipment and chalice sticks around.
Bonesplitter is a horrible idea. Your first and second trinket mage target is needle or chalice followed by another chalice. If you want to run another artifact as a mage target, run one that atleast draws cards for when you're in a jam.
4 mana isn't hard when 8 of your sources produce two mana. You only need 3 lands for four mana.
If you're not running any 4cc cards, I would recommend cutting Cloud of Faires altogether for something like Looter il Kor as one of Clouds best functions, the one that I use him for most often is to let you generate 4 mana with just two lands and atleast il Kor lets you try and find additional threats.
The disenchant point wasn't my argument. It was merely taking your own argument against relying on equipment and pointing out to you how incredibly illogical it is to rely on solving the problem with an answer that's vulnerable to the exact same things. As for the second point, what if it doesn't get Disenchanted and instead finds itself falling prey to Affinity hate like Serenity and the like?
Bonesplitter is a horrible idea. Which was sort of my point. And you added six artifacts, not four. Four Juggernauts and Two Chimeric Idols. And 23 is a stretch for being the right number of blue. I don't feel comfortable with less than 26 when there's 8 pitch mechanisms.
That said, what Islandcycler are you running? Shoreline Ranger? (Is there even another one?). I think I might like that idea.
How is it illogical. Most deck bring in 4 disenchant/naturalize/krosan grip/seal of primordium. Making them use up those cards on Idols and Juggs means they won't have them to use on Chalices and Equipment and viceversa. Either way you retain a strong clock. It might make more sense to you if you tried out such a build instead of dismissing it off hand.
I can't think of a single deck that runs serenity. And I certanly haven't run into any. Have you? Every deck I can think of runs Pithing Needles or Engineered Plagues or Survivals or equipment of it's own that it's afraid of blowing up.
Check the build I posted. I am running 2 Chimeric Idol and 2 Juggernaut. You still run a sufficient amount of blue, more than a third of the deck is blue afterall. Yes, Shoreline is the only islandcycler, for some reason, I can never remember the cards name.
My problem with this (other than the obvious declining number of blue cards in a deck that runs 8 pitch cards and more out of the board) is that you're arguing that they only have X amount of disenchant effects, and if you up the number of targets, they won't have enough to deal with all of them. That might be true if these were non-creature artifacts, but since they are creatures, it's not like they are running artifact hate, but no creature hate. What you've basically done is made their artifact hate MORE effective, by allowing them to choose the target that most threatens them.
If you have a chalice @1 and a jugg out, and the jugg is hitting, and all they have a disenchant, I think we all know where the disenchant is headed. Now, if that creature were a Serendib Dijiin (or any other 5 powered blue creature) the disenchant would blow up the Chalice, and they would have a scant few turns to topdeck an answer and pray you didn't topdeck well. Now, there are certainly times when the first scenario works out better, but as an agressive deck, the latter is preferable ~ 95% of the time.
The other issue I have is that equipment needs a creature to be useful. Anyone who has played this deck has felt the sting of Jitte and Sword sitting on the board just waiting for a creature to cling onto. Turning Disenchants into StP (particularly for ag-con decks like Thresh and Fish, where we already struggle to keep threats out) is just asking for useless equipment and a loss.
As for sweepers like Serenity, I have seen it run (AS maybe?) but I wouldn't call it prevelant. A much more played card to worry about is Null Rod, which shuts down Idol.
I haven't picked up FS in a while, so it may be possible to squeeze in some artifact fatties and not take a hit, but I would make sure to test post boarded games a ton, and count up the number of times you would have liked to pitch those guys.
Cloud of Faeries only gets better in multiples! One of the greatest things about this deck is that it can almost play like a combo deck at times. No deck, period, is gona be happy if you go turn 2 cloud, cloud, play and equip sofi. You are talkin about this deck's speed and how it has very few threats, but I think you are forgetting just how big of a threat cloud of faeries is. In FS it almost says, "0: add a colorless mana to your mana pool and put a 1/1 flying creature into play." It speeds up our equipment, can allows us to rebuild our board almost instantly after a mass removal spell, and with a SoFI becomes a very sizable threat. And if, by the grace of god, you don't need a free threat and mana accel, then you can always just cycle it. I would never play FS without cloud.
If you have the ability to go chalice for 1 or drake 1st turn, lay the chalice. Always. Even if it is game 2 and you know their deck, and you went second, lay the chalice. The best discard, creature removal, burn, card draw, artifacts, mana accel, and creatures all cost 1 in this format. Don't hesitate to drop it at 1.
I'm not sure what metas you are talking about. Infact I've never seen a metagame where TWO of the big 3 made up 40-50% of the decks. I've never even seen a meta where the big three made up 50%. Also consider that threshold is definately on the down swing. Basically, your assumption that thresh and gobos are the best and most popular decks is just flat out wrong.
Kronicler
Team Info-Ninjas: Catchphrases so secret, I don't even know what they are!
I'd continue arguing the illogical point on targeted enchantment/artifact removal, but Phantom more or less beat me to it with perfect eloquence. I wish I were rich so I could just hire him to write all my argumentative posts for me.
As for Serenity, it is on the rise. Enchantress is back from the dead and Affinity's as common as ever, and any deck that can afford to pack the S-Bomb should. I've seen Threshold packing it. I've seen R/W Goblins packing it (And this is the deck I really love it in. Die Plague x 2, Die Affinity, Die Enchantress.) Hannifish runs it in the sideboard, or used to (I haven't checked the thread lately.) Etc.
As for your last little snarky comment, I'm getting a little sick and tired of people attempting to defend their ideas like they're gods of magic and the rest of us don't have the slightest idea what we're talking about. These forums exist so that we can share ideas and our thoughts on them, not so we can declare how much more we know about magic than everyone else. If you'd like to go that route, I've played magic for thirteen years, have T3'd in 17 out of 17 Legacy Tournaments I've played in, Won 12 of those, am ranked in the top 100 Eternal in the United States, and most importantly, I'm not as stupid as you seem to think I am. I don't have to go playtest ten matches with a specific change you made in a decklist to form an opinion on it and then voice my opinion. I don't think adding artifact creatures solves the problem of our threats not being legitimate due to artifact removal killing the equipment. I think Chimeric Idol's complete garbage in the deck, though I wouldn't necessarily object to the 2 Juggernauts.
Can you please post your most recent list Eldariel? Are you still running 1 x Sensei's Divining Top and 2 x Mishra's Bauble? I found the Bauble to be quite useful but the Top mostly annoyed me because the deck doesn't run enough shuffle effects for it to be effective.
Clark Kant, no flaming intended, but clearly I disagree with you on many points, and share the points of view of Phantom, Tacosnape and the others.
I played with 3 MD Silent Arbitrers (in the Weatherseed 3 slots), at 2 Legacy tournaments, and there was at least 2 matches (one of which I lost because of that), I had FoW, Silent Arbiter in hand, and no other blue cards. So it happens.
Adding 4 Artifacts for 4 blue cards significantly changes the ratio. There is also the point Tacosnape made, i.e. your « added threats » being vulnerable to both Creature AND artifact hate. BTW, if Serenity is not that played (had it in play against me once in maybe 10 tournaments), Null Rod is much more played. And it severely ruins FS without adding some Idols. Idol is great in Pox, but really bad here.
We have 8 actual threats as you say, but Cloud of Faeries + SoFI also counts. Or even Weatherseed+ Jitte can sometimes win you the game (killed an Aluren deck last tournament with that). I agree with you that your best play chalice=1 first turn. But I disagree about blindly playing Mox + Tomb + Drake on 1st turn. At least if you know your opponent is not playing STP/Bolt/whatever, but otherwise I really see this as a mistake. A much better play would be T1 Mox + Tomb for Trinket Mage.
Regarding the supposed 4 disenchants decks sideboard against FS, have you ever been killed by shattering Spree, a VERY common SB cards if you run Red? The spell is countered, but not all the copies. The more artifacts, the more damage…. Null Rods, Serenities…
I will never ever consider cutting the Clouds of Faeries. Not only are they blue (in practice often pitch cards when needed), but they fly, and can often be equiped for pleasant effects, they cycle (never dead under chalice=2), help digging for a land when needed, but they also often read “play for free a 1/1 flying, add 1 to your pool”. Really. They allow, the 2nd turns: Island + City/Tomb + Cloud + Chalice=2, critical in a few MUs. (Pikula, WW, Survival, 43 lands…)
Or, Island + City/Tomb + Cloud + 2nd Cloud/Mox, SoFI equipped FTW…
Etc
Of course, you won’t do this every game, or every two games, but again it happens.
On the other hand, I really don’t like Looter. I don’t like having more 2cc slots dead under chalices. It is a miserable topdeck. Shadow<Flying, The argument “equipped with a SoFI it is great”, is quite fun, as almost any creature equipped by SoFI, as long as it has a minimum evasion is amazing. Looter is very vulnerable, just as Clouds, but Clouds are not supposed to survive many turns to allow us to dig through our libraries for the missing equipments/Creatures/whatever. It is clearly inferior to TfK, or FoF, or any non conditional draw spell. As a drawer, Looter<TfK, FoF; as a “creature”, almost every time I had it when I played it, it was <Clouds. The idea creature+draw is tempting, but it really doesn’t work that way almost always.
Bonesplitter is for sure a horrible idea, at least we all agree on one issue….
I sometimes wonder how, considering the very little variations on our respective builds (3-4 slots), we can have such a different analysis of the deck.
@Psyk: Really, Top is bad in FS. Rather than add some shuffle effects, such as fetch lands, free you one slot for something useful.
Regarding Thirst for Knowledge: Why are there not 4 in every build. I regularly thrash Faerie Stompy with different decks and when it loses it has one thing in common every time...no, or 1 card in hand. When it wins it normally beats me with an unmolested Serendib or Sea Drake that came down on turn 2 and went all the way.
I have seen this deck run out of gas a remarkable amount of times when faced with 1 or 2 creature removal spells. When I play thresh vs. Faerie Stompy I just counter chalices and creatures. BTW unless the Faerie Stompy player was retarded daze was ridiculous against it. I let you have all the equipment, psi blasts and whatever else you want (that and I have needles).
I realize you have CotV and FoW but you either have them or not. Thirst is just a remarkable fit here, having a deck that likes to produce 3 mana fast and with a ton of artifacts. I think it would marginally increase consistency at the marginal cost of speed/damage.
Quite simply, they hurt the Goblins matchup (and the combo matchup somewhat). From your comments I would guess that you are a Thresh player? That is probably the best deck to have draw against, so your view might be a tad skewed.
That being said, I think there should at least be 3 non creature based draw spells in every build.
@jazzykat: I played with up to 4 MD, but as weird as it sounds it was too much, in most MUs. I went back to 3, then 2. I replaced the 3rd one by a third Weatherseed Faerie. As Phantom said, TfK is not very hot vs Gob...
Regarding the MU vs Threshold, it is usually in favor of FS, if the player knows a minimum how to play his deck. I found Daze easily playable around, for instance, dropping chalice=1 on T2 with 3 manas. I have a little more trouble vs the R splash (damn Fire/Ice), than the W splash, but I win a lot more vs Thresh in tournaments, than I lose (I posted at least 6 detailed tournaments reports in the previous pages of this thread, if you are curious).
WRT to MD Thirsts: I have to concede my conjecture to your playtesting. It obviously would be suboptimal vs. goblins, I guess I am still thinking like a T1 control player "MUST DRAW CARDS!!!!!". In that vein..."What matchup does TfK improve that needs help?" None come to my mind off the top of my head so while it looked like an auto 4 of, I can see why you found seemingly less overall powerful cards to shore up weaker match ups.
WRT to Thresh Matchup: I totally agree with you, and it is a good trick which my opponent never used to drop the chalice on the second turn with 3 mana open. I am also a very competent Thresh player so that may have had something to do with my abnormal win percentages vs. FS.
I will check out your tournament reports.
Thanks for explaining instead of flaming.
JK
I actually usually advise against this. You must be on the draw, since Daze was a factor turn 1, so waiting a turn allows the Thresh player to Brainstorm/Visions into FOW, and allows him to build up to counterspell mana. I usually take my chances on turn one.
@ jazzykat : I’m sorry, I also post on French mtg forums, and browsing this thread, I posted much less detailed reports, than I previously claimed. I posted all of them in French, but I suppose this is useless for you. Anyway, here are a couple available here:
P 20: Legacy side event of the Worlds (2nd /140)
P 17: 7th / 40+ tournament (no Top 8)
P 19: 6th /50+ tournament (no Top 8)
P 22: 1st / 40+ tournament
@Phantom : I get your point. But playing chalice T1 on the draw, makes me feel going “all in”, as they have 4 MD Fow + 4 Dazes, i.e. 8 answers. The easier&safier is still win the toss anyway...
You win a cookie for acknowledging Phantom's awesomeness. I just sort of hide in his shadow and scheme up more decks that die to Pernicious Deed for him to playtest and popularize. Like Dragon Stompy.
I disagree with you about the Sea Drake, though. At least I think I do, depending on what you're saying. If I have the option of going turn one Chalice or turn one Drake on the play, I'll always open with the Chalice. However, If I -can- drop the turn one Drake and I don't have the Chalice, I open with the Drake (Unless I -desperately- need the Chalice off the Trinket Mage, like Chalicing for 0 against Storm Combo.)
As for why we all view it differently, I think Chalice Aggro is one of the most difficult deck types to sculpt properly and one we know the least about. My deck, Pile Bunker, is an insanely janky Chalice Aggro deck built on a hypermodern theory of magic deck design that teeters on a thin wire between revolutionary genius and total crap. And I think to varying degrees that statement applies heavily to all Chalice Aggro. It doesn't mulligan well, it tends to run out of steam, and it likes to damage itself to ridiculous proportions, but it's amazing when it works.
I run 4 Thirsts. I think this is the right thing to do, but I reserve the right to change my mind. Having excessive Thirsts has never been a problem for me, as any given Thirst has eleven things to pitch it to (4 Moxes, 4 Forces, and the other 3 Thirsts. Sometimes you will pitch the two blue.) I cut a Psionic Blast for it, because while I love the removal, I find it hard to cast two Psionic Blasts in a game while taking 3-4 hits from Ancient Tomb, losing life to Force, and losing life to Serendib.
As for running out of steam, this is why Eldariel ran Faerie Conclave, and why it still belongs in the deck I think. I only run one to his two, but I run it nonetheless, as it's very powerful in certain matchups. I've won many games off the single Conclave and lost very few.
I actually started screwing around with Aquamoeba and Circular Logic in the deck for awhile. Logic fit the mana curve well, pitched to Moeba and Thirst, and so forth, it just sucked to play defensively with the deck, and often wasn't enough to counter the spell in a fetchlandless deck. So I cut it. Aquamoeba, on the other hand, I'm still liking even without Logic. It lets you pitch dead Moxes/Jittes/Forces that are cluttering up your hand to do sneaky combat tricks. It can beat for 3, and as a 1/3 it's good at living through 2/2's while waiting to pick up equipment. I feel like Aquamoeba might compete for Sea Sprite's slot depending on the amount of Red in your metagame. (Keep a couple Sprites in your board, though, as its solid when you need it.)
Well, I'm happy to see we have an actual discussion going here again,
Phantom, in your example, you say Juggs is bad because when it's applying strong pressure on your opponent, it could occasionaly get disenchanted over Chalice or soemthing else. It's a situation that in the probably close to a hundred games I've tested Juggernaut in, came up maybe once, and it didn't cost me the game either. And regardless, why would I want to replace juggernaut with a threat that has ONE POWER (see below for a list of the creatures that people run in place of Juggs), a creature so weak that even if your opponent could disenchant it, they wouldn't. It's far better to play something your opponent is forced to deal with right away even if they occasionally can, than to play something that you opponent really wouldn't care about dealing with, as it barely pinches them. One damage a turn doesn't scare people, five damage a turn does. The only way a 1/1 even become scary is if it's equipped, ang guess what Disenchant can target as well as Juggernaut. In your own example, I would much rather have a SOFI and a Juggernaut in play when my opponent has a Disenchant, than I would a Sea Sprite equipped with a SOFI. If you can name me a good 4cc threat that can deal atleast 4 damage a turn and isn't vulnerable to disenchant, I would gladly run that instead. But till then, I'm sticking with the best option this deck has to apply pressure with after Drake and Efreet.
The whole point in beefing up threats was to add threats that actually scare my opponent...
Lets think about what most people end up running in place of Juggernaut.
They either run...
Looter il Kor (which I AM running btw, but in place of Cloud of Fairies) - 1 power
Sea Sprite- 1 power
Serendib Djinn - I've seen many people here say this card is good, but have yet to see anyone claim to actually run it, and the reason is that it forces you to sac lands and put all your eggs in one basket. If it gets killed, it will often mean game over for you as well. And on top of that, it need double blue mana to cast. All this to deal the same 5 damage a turn that Juggernaut does.
and some are suggesting running Fairie Conclaves in place of Islands which I think is a really bad idea, as it can often slow your deck down by a full turn, all for a card that eats three mana to do two damage a turn, and on top of that makes your blue sources vulnerable to Wasteland. It's far too slow and like I said, does slow the deck down by a turn or so all while putting you at danger of colorscrew.
Also, the double Cloud of Fairies to equip a SOFI isn't that great a play. You just cast three cards (probably bringing you down to a single card) when only one of them is an actual threat in a deck that has next to no card draw. If that SOFI gets disenchanted, what exactly did you accomplish? Given that I'm not saying Cloud of Fairies is a bad card or shouldn't be played, I think it's a strong inclusion though I personally opted to go with Looter and Weatherseed Fairies instead, I'm just pointing out that that particular example isn't that great.
It seems clear to me though that no one's mind is going to be changed on running Juggernaut over a 1/1 flyer, atleast some people try out the change atleast. So let's just agree to disagree, and talk about something where we can actually get somewhere, like the sideboard.
I think we were having an interesting discussion on two cards before the Juggernaut issue came up...
Winter Orb - How good and neccesary the card is and how many should be run?
and...
Binding Grasp vs. Control Magic
Frankly, I think the two blue mana requirement needed to play Control Magic is made up by not having to tap down two land each turn sometimes making you unable to play any other threats. And as others pointed out, occasionly even forcing you to tap Ancient Tomb each turn and take 3 damage to the face each time you do.
What I've found is that the creatures you need it against, Mystic Enforcer, Exalted Angel etc, come down late enough in the game that you do have double blue.
But I can see where the other side is coming from too, letting you steal early game Werebears and what not. So I would really like to hear from more people on which side they fall.
You must be joking. Like seriously you MUST be be kidding. Turn 2 play and equip SoFI with 2 creatures on the table? That isn't a great play? The purpose of cloud is to ramp up to a threat, so of course if that threat is countered or killed then yes, you haven't gained anything 'cept 2 1/1s. But seriously, that play is amazing! Turn 3 you draw 2 cards, deal 4 damage and kill a creature. Gobos almost scoops to that. Now if you had been holding 2 looters and a SoFI then your turn 2 would have been play looter, burn for 1, then gobos would smash you in the face. Even if you only had 1 cloud, it would allow you to go cloud -> play and equip jitte or play juggs or play FoF. I just don't understand how you can play FS without cloud (cmon, it is the namesake faerie!) or how you can possibly think that accelerating out threats turns earlier than they would normally come into effect can be bad. Plus, my playset of foil Clouds is just so frickin pimp!
Kronicler
Last edited by Kronicler; 03-30-2007 at 05:19 PM. Reason: spelling FTL
Team Info-Ninjas: Catchphrases so secret, I don't even know what they are!
Except, you know, the fact that Serendib Djinn has 6 toughness to Juggernaut's 3, has evasion, and imprints on Mox and pitches to Force. And that this deck doesn't run that many Islands in the first place and can cast every spell in its entire deck (Except the Djinn itself) off a single Chrome Mox and an Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors. All for the same cost of Juggernaut.
Share your drugs. Seriously.
Cloud of Faeries is what makes this deck tick. It's mana acceleration with evasion and an equippable body attached. I'd run six if I could. I've won games against Survival because on turn two I was able to go (with Tomb/Island or City/Island), Cloud of Faeries, Trinket Mage, Pithing Needle. With the same land configuration, I've gone turn two Cloud of Faeries, Chalice for 2 against Angel Stompy, LFTL, Epic Storm, and tons of other decks that get hurt by Chal-2. Plus, it cycles. This is an often underrated ability in Cloud of Faeries. When you don't need that Cloud, ditch it and draw a card.
Four mana blue critters which beat for four or more:
Extravagant Spirit
Illusionary Forces
Phantasmal Forces
Serendib Djinn
Waterspout Djinn
Thought Devourer
Only three:
Chronozoa
Phantom Monster
Possessed Aven
Troublesome Spirit
I think Extravagant Spirit is the most promising of this bunch, if anyone wants to try it.
Last edited by Illissius; 03-31-2007 at 12:39 PM. Reason: forgot one
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
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