[Deck] CounterSliver 2.0 (MeatHooks.dec)

[DarkAkuma]

:O. I never even thought of that. Reeks of win-more (since you have to have more than them anyway), but it would be fun to spring on someone...

Looks kind of fun, but in a sliver stalemate hands will fill up with counters. I'd preffer to provoke a counter war at the end of my opponants turn with a free cast ensnare, rather then do it during my own turn with a 4cc sorcery. Hell of a way to start a counter war too, -4 mana....

[SpikeyMikey]

On that note, may I suggest Aether Vial?

Indeed, more slivers would give you a better game against Goblins, but near as I can tell not having counters would make your matchup horrible against heavy board control as well as combo. From what you've told me, I can only imagine that Deed/EE/Disk/WoG bends you over the table. All I know is that a resolved WoG et al is pretty bad for us, although you might be able to recover faster between a higher threat density and Call.

Either way, feel free to pursue this thought, but for now I'm sticking to my counterspells. I guess I'll just have to settle for 70-30 against Gobs. *sigh*.

Yes, board clearers are bad for me, but not ridiculously bad. In fact, I think a resolved board clearing spell is worse for you, because as you mention, I have the higher threat density and call to find necessary slivers. Of course, the chance of a board clearing spell resolving against me is infintely higher than it is against you, I have no way to stop it, although I can play around it by holding a Quick Sliver and a few others in my hand. Generally, anything clearing the board with Deed or WoG isn't going to be running very many creatures, so it's not a particular problem to drop 2-3 slivers EoT and then beat with them next turn, saving whatever else I've got for the next mass removal spell.

Even so, you're still better set up to deal with WoG than I am, but I just don't see much WoG/Disk/Deed/EE/Keg/etc. out there. The biggest problem that *I* see is CotV set at 2, and G1, there's really nothing I can do about it. If control sees a big upswing at some point in the future, it wouldn't really be that difficult to get around, Telekinetic Sliver is GG for counter control if it comes down, and you've got Root Sliver to make sure that it does. It could always be boarded in for a control heavy environment.

Combo has a bye against my deck, especially G1, since I can't race and I have no denial, but that can be shored up in the board with things like Orim's Chant, or other, more techy solutions. I used to run a card called Soul Echo in board for Keeper against Tendrils based combo decks, since they have no actual damage dealing capability, 1WW means they can't win. Of course, it was a little more impressive in a format where it could come down turn 1 with a Lotus or turn 2 on any decent hand, which is why it was better than Ivory Mask, but still, I'm sure there are equally tech tricks to dealing with 1.5 combo right now, I just haven't seen much of a presence, so I haven't worried about it.

[Pinder]

Yes, board clearers are bad for me, but not ridiculously bad. In fact, I think a resolved board clearing spell is worse for you, because as you mention, I have the higher threat density and call to find necessary slivers.

This is probably true. But that's why we try not to let those resolve.

Of course, the chance of a board clearing spell resolving against me is infintely higher than it is against you, I have no way to stop it, although I can play around it by holding a Quick Sliver and a few others in my hand. Generally, anything clearing the board with Deed or WoG isn't going to be running very many creatures, so it's not a particular problem to drop 2-3 slivers EoT and then beat with them next turn, saving whatever else I've got for the next mass removal spell.

I've never been a big fan of Quick Sliver, but I suppose that in this case it could be useful. Do you find youself ever using outside of fighting mass removal?

The biggest problem that *I* see is CotV set at 2, and G1, there's really nothing I can do about it.

If it sticks to the table, a Chalice @ 2 can be bad for us G1. Luckily it doesn't usually stick to the table. G2 we have Harmonic, which luckily costs 3.

If control sees a big upswing at some point in the future, it wouldn't really be that difficult to get around, Telekinetic Sliver is GG for counter control if it comes down, and you've got Root Sliver to make sure that it does. It could always be boarded in for a control heavy environment.

Whoa...Telekenetic? Root? Are we talking about the same deck? If a sliver costs 4 mana, it has to be very good to make the cut over titans like Muscle, Sinew, and Crystalline. If you see a lot of Control in the field, I could see Root Sliver coming in, but what purpose could Telekenetic serve that Root doesn't against Control? The only thing I can think of offhand is to tap down their lands to avoid counterspells, but if you have Root, why bother? It seems like attacking with untapped slivers is a better option than tapping them down.

Combo has a bye against my deck, especially G1, since I can't race and I have no denial, but that can be shored up in the board with things like Orim's Chant, or other, more techy solutions.

From what I've heard, it sounds like you've worsened your Control and Combo matchups in order to increase an already favorable Aggro matchup. Am I missing something?

[Maverick676]

Nope your not missing anything, the guy is just an idiot. A sliver deck with no counters has no way of winning against a control deck. Board sweepers will kill you plain and simple. Meathooks runs counterspells so that it isn't a mindless aggro deck that rolls to every card with the words destroy and creatures on it. If you are just playing "slivers I thought were cool.dec" then please refrain from posting in here since you obviously have nothing insightful to add to the conversation.

[Pinder]

Nope your not missing anything, the guy is just an idiot...you obviously have nothing insightful to add to the conversation..

See here? This is why we can't have nice things. Simmer down, man.

[Maverick676]

See here? This is why we can't have nice things. Simmer down, man.

What? there were some reasonable statements in there.

[Kokusho17]

Just a little tourney report from my local store.

Round Robin.
Match 1: Tooth and Nail (Urzatron)
Game 1: I lose to a few recurring Oblivion Stone
Game 2: In come the MM and Harmonics. Turn 2 Mage naming Tooth.
Game 3: Countering everything then run him over, he tries to stall with Moments Peace

Match 2: Angel Stompy w/ Cataclysm
Game 1: Angel comes down early and beats me silly.
Game 2: In come MM and Harmonics. Beat him down.
Game 3: I run out of counters and he uses a timely Cataclysm to gain the win.

Match 3: Homebrew Numot Nuke everything.
Game 1: Counter his early threats and attack.
Game 2: Same as above.

2-1 in round robin gains me second place going into the finals.

Semi Finals.
Match 1: Homebrew Black Deck.
Game 1: Counter her early threats and attack.
Game 2: Same as above.

Finals. I would have been facing the Tooth and Nail guy from my first match but he had to go so we ended up splitting the prizes (2 packs each [not bad for a $2 entry fee]).

The decklist i used is the same one on the first page but incase people are feeling lazy ill post it here along with the sideboard i used.

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Slive
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Daze

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Windswept Heath

Sideboard: (i only needed to side in the Mages and the Harmonics as those are the only cards i have for my sideboard at the moment.)
4 Meddling Mage
4 Trickbind
3 Armageddon
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Tormod's Crypt

Thus ends my little tourney report. Laters

[SpikeyMikey]

Nope your not missing anything, the guy is just an idiot. A sliver deck with no counters has no way of winning against a control deck. Board sweepers will kill you plain and simple. Meathooks runs counterspells so that it isn't a mindless aggro deck that rolls to every card with the words destroy and creatures on it. If you are just playing "slivers I thought were cool.dec" then please refrain from posting in here since you obviously have nothing insightful to add to the conversation.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. You know, I'm not a Legacy guru these days, I more or less retired from the format a long time ago. I'm just talking, discussing the deck and it's role, and why it's constructed the way it is. I don't think that slivers make for an effective aggro control deck in the traditional sense because the traditional strategy of aggro control is to drop 1 or 2 threats then sit back on cheap control and tempo tricks. Slivers, as aggro control creatures, are ineffective. Yes, I know that CounterSliver was the original aggro control deck, but times, they have a changed. Slivers are simply smaller than other aggressive creatures these days, and they are more effective, by design, when you have more of them out. This is why, up until recently, people haven't seriously considered them as a win condition.

The only reason that slivers are viable right now is that the environment is not dominated by control decks powered by board clearers, in fact, the environment, as far as I can see from the Source and what little playing I do on MWS is nearly void of the iron tower style control decks that used to be so popular in 1.5 and in T1 pre-Mirrodin. What I do see a lot of is Goblins, Gro, and midrange aggro in a variety of colors, B/W, R/G, R/G/B, WW/Angel Stompy, etc.

In any case, I apologize most humbly for dirtying your thread, I'll keep further discussions in PM with Pinder.

[xsockmonkeyx]

What? there were some reasonable statements in there.

There was also a lot of troll in there too.

FOr the record Im also currently playing Sliversthatithinkarecool.dec, it just happens to be this one.

[Volt]

Mav, you're my teammate and all, and I'll always back you in a knife fight, but stop being such a jerk-ass. K? Seriously, no kidding around, no smiley faces, just stop being a fuckhead.

[Maverick676]

In the future I will try to be more respectful in my posts, but I will not apologize for what I said. I meant it when I wrote it and I still mean it now. The list Spikey is refferring to in his posts is very different than counterslivers, counterspells are a huge part of why this deck can win. It is a very well established concept that straight aggro, especially if it is not lightning fast, without some kind of disruption i.e. tangle wire, discard, counters, ect. loses almost without fail to both combo and control decks. Both of which you can expect to see at a large tournament. The only thing about his deck that is similar to ours is that it runs slivers.

[Soto]

I know the deck is called CounterSliver, but i'm questionning counterspell. The deck already runs only 18 lands so to have 2 open for it is (imo) quite hard to get when you need to drop your slivers. My question is this, if you have them, do you play them? (talking bout sliver) Obviously you don't if they got alot of hate (stp and wog), but otherwise you should rely on fow and daze as your control. Am i wrong?

[Pinder]

I know the deck is called CounterSliver, but i'm questionning counterspell. The deck already runs only 18 lands so to have 2 open for it is (imo) quite hard to get when you need to drop your slivers. My question is this, if you have them, do you play them? (talking bout sliver) Obviously you don't if they got alot of hate (stp and wog), but otherwise you should rely on fow and daze as your control. Am i wrong?

Typically your primary source of countermagic is Daze and FoW. Counterspell is there because we found that we needed more hard counters for the expensive stuff in the late game that Daze just can't counter. There's only 2, though, because typically you don't want to see them until after 4th turn or so.

[Maverick676]

What he said, usually counterspell stops that sweeper spelled played right before you swing for the win.

[BeeblesofLife]

Stupid question, Have you guys tried the top counterblance thingy that thresh is currently trying out? I know the deck is designed to be more or less aggro control but, have any of you tried the fish approach to this thing?


Oh and its nice to see someone else from team info ninja getting bashed for once.

[Volt]

Stupid question, Have you guys tried the top counterblance thingy that thresh is currently trying out? I know the deck is designed to be more or less aggro control but, have any of you tried the fish approach to this thing?

It has been brought up (by yours truly, actually), but not yet tested.

[kicks_422]

A few questions regarding everyone's build right now:

1. How many lands?
I run 17, but I think I'm going back up to 18.

2. Counterspell?
I run 4 because there are still a lot of things to coutner nowadays.

3. Sideboard?
This is what I run:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Essence Sliver - because I'm having trouble with Dryad Sligh
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Stifle

Wherein the 2 Crypts could possibly become Ensnare if the mirror match comes up too often.

[Kronicler]

Currently I run 18 lands, 2 counterspell, and this SB:

4 Meddling Mage
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chill
2 Stifle

If I were going to take the deck to a larger tournament I would switch chills with Crypts, but in my meta I see burn/sligh as well as tons of gobos and absolutely zero thresh, so chill serves me better.

Kronicler

[Volt]

18 lands, 2 counterspells.

Oh, and yeah, Sligh is actually a problematic matchup. Straight-up Burn can be handled without too much trouble, but Sligh tends to run us over. I had somone play my Rancor Sligh deck against me the other day, and he beat me like 5 games in a row. Essence Sliver is probably about as good as anything for that matchup. Worship is also good, but can be K-Gripped away.

Btw, although this thread has slowed way down, development of this deck has continued in a private forum. We're presently working on a new primer that blows our old one away. Look for it to be posted within the next week or two.

[Nihil Credo]

Although we're all eager to see what the private development will produce, in the meanwhile I urge everyone to try playing with maindeck Meddling Mages. Without going into details, it's good against the whole field and only sucks versus "dumb aggro" (Sligh and the like) which is an awful matchup anyway. You can find my list at the beginning of the second-to-last page.

Also, I am currently testing Worldly Tutor in place of Eladamri's Call. Not being able to cast the Tutor and a threat in the same turn was a huge liability, and the card disadvantage isn't problematic since what I fetch usually wins me the game. Being able to go turn 1 Tutor -> turn 2 Mage is also great against fast combo. The fact that Tutor is a lousy topdeck is its biggest flaw, but then, so is Call when you have 3 or fewer lands (Predict might also be randomly bad, but that's a narrow problem).