[OLD] UGb Threshold

[Finn]

It seems to me that the classic best reason to use black in Thresh has been access to Dark Confidant. With that out, you have Ghastly Demise as the only black card in the main. Is this new guy really good enough to lose things like Mage and STP or Bolt and Fire//Ice?

Black is imo currently a very strong color, but this deck is not really making use of its strengths very well. Instead of showcasing the best stuff like Deed, Hymn, Damnation, etc. you have Ghastly Demise. I'm not saying you should replace the demises with Hymn or something. They are there for a clear reason. But perhaps this deck needs to be seriously reworked when you consider what is going in and what is not being used at all.

[BreathWeapon]

There is a TON of incorrect information in this thread. I don't really have time to go through and correct it all right now, but I'll address what I can.

First of all, Black absolutely does not improve the quality of your removal. It doesn't. Ghastly Demise is strictly inferior to StP in every way, and this comes from someone who has used both at many, many times. The fact that it cannot answer a Negator or even an opposing Confidant is extremely relevant, and can lose you matches. To say that this is made up for by running Diabolic Edict is a fallacy, and at most it gives you more removal spells at the cost of cantrips or threats. It's blatantly obvious that Red has the most powerful removal package, because it doesn't run a single spell that is dead in the combo matchup. Burn can always fly at your oponent's noggin. While it doesn't have spot removal as potent as StP or Demise, it more than makes up for it in reach.

Engineered Plague is a relevant point of contention, but remember that White has Tivadar's Crusade (or Hail Storm) and Red has PYROCLASM. Both are viable solutions to the Goblin Problem, and as Goblins is basically designed to deal with Plague now, I wouldn't count it as the strongest possible solution to the deck anymore.

Haunting Echoes is AWFUL in Thresh. Notice that Thresh runs zero cards that cannot be played for 4 mana or less (3 with Werebear). This is for a reason. The control matchups you refer to will probably be either Loam decks, Landstill, or Wombat. Vs. the first two, you need to have 5 mana up on your Main Phase, which is an issue in itself when both decks rape your manabase, and then resolve Echoes through disruption (in the case of Landstill). Vs. every one of those decks, Armageddon is a Turn faster, supports your game plan better, affects the present board state, and disrupts your opponent more effectively.

Deed + Nimble Mongoose = Not a combo.

As Dark Confidant is the most important part of the black splash (see the Herbig project - discussed here), all the huge guys and flashy win conditions drive up the potential for Bob to screw you. Even with just Force in the deck I get nervous. Some of you are even advocating cutting cantrips with Bob in the deck! The whole point of fitting him into the thresh shell was to utilize the natural knowledge of your top library card to make Bob free draw. Cutting Portent, Visions, or Brainstorm when they all make Bob better is a mistake. You don't really need Predict or Mental note as much anymore, but both are potent with or without Confidant in play.

Duress absolutely is NOT better than Meddling Mage vs. Combo. I'm not going to get into the debate on whether or not he's needed in UGw thresh with you, because that will go on forever, but let's say you have to choose one or the other. Duress is a temporary solution that takes the most pertinent threat out of their hand. This works into your game plan how? What are you planning to do in order to capitalize on that disruption? Play a cantrip and a Mongoose? Meddling Mage is a threat that they must answer to win the game, or slow down to play around. Either way, he buys you at least some time, where Duress may or may not. Note that this applies more to Non-TES combo decks, but is true there, as well, if you play tightly.

Portent vs. Mage - Mage disrupts your opponent starting turn 2. Portent draws you another counterspell that doesn't help vs. Storm. Note that I don't disagree that Portent is good, but I wouldn't choose it over Meddling Mage.

I may have more later, and feel free to disagree.

I disagree,

Engineered Plague is the best answer against Goblins, it kills Goblins as soon as it resolves, it weakens the Goblins it doesn't kill, and it prevents Goblins from being cast. Forcing the opponent to SB in Krosan Grip is a good thing, because their removing 4 Goblins for a card that has no effect until after Engineered Plague resolves.

I've used Dark Confidant in all 4 formats, and I've been fine with Dark Confidant in Vintage Fish with just Brainstorm.

Duress is better than Meddling Mage against combo, Duress is B, Meddling Mage is UW, which makes it too slow on the draw and sometimes too slow on the play against Belcher or TES. Meddling Mage has a 33% chance of naming the correct win condition against Belcher and a 50% chance of naming the correct win condition against TES. The default target against TES is LED, and that just makes Meddling Mage a bad Null Rod.

I have higher win percentages with U/g/b than U/g/w against combo, that's the reason I don't bother to use U/g/w for anything other than testing purposes any more.

Cantrips aren't business, cantrips are cards in between business, the difference between having to cantrip for an answer and having an answer in hand is life and death against combo. That said, I don't have a problem with Portent, but using Predict, and not using 4 Dark Confidant, is just terrible.

I'm still not big on Tombstalker in this deck, but he is awesome in U/b/w and U/b/r from the looks of it, casting him on turn is insane if he doesn't interfere with the other threats in the deck.

[Citrus-God]

There is a TON of incorrect information in this thread. I don't really have time to go through and correct it all right now, but I'll address what I can.

First of all, Black absolutely does not improve the quality of your removal. It doesn't. Ghastly Demise is strictly inferior to StP in every way, and this comes from someone who has used both at many, many times. The fact that it cannot answer a Negator or even an opposing Confidant is extremely relevant, and can lose you matches. To say that this is made up for by running Diabolic Edict is a fallacy, and at most it gives you more removal spells at the cost of cantrips or threats. It's blatantly obvious that Red has the most powerful removal package, because it doesn't run a single spell that is dead in the combo matchup. Burn can always fly at your oponent's noggin. While it doesn't have spot removal as potent as StP or Demise, it more than makes up for it in reach.

The point of running Black in this deck is to get the same natural strategy of both worlds, but has to run pseudo-counterparts of that removal because you cant expect to have both Swords and Clasm in the same deck without fucking yourself over. Ghastly Demise and Plague can at least do that, but not perform the greatest. If you run White, you weaken your Goblins MU, if you run Red you weakn your mirror MU. Black just forces you to weaken your Black-Tempo MU.

Also, Red spells have been kept at a minimum to avoid situations where they're dead, even if it's a clock. Burn weakens your game against Threshold and other scary Midgame decks.

Engineered Plague is a relevant point of contention, but remember that White has Tivadar's Crusade (or Hail Storm) and Red has PYROCLASM. Both are viable solutions to the Goblin Problem, and as Goblins is basically designed to deal with Plague now, I wouldn't count it as the strongest possible solution to the deck anymore.

Tavadar's Crusade and Hail Storm's casting cost is way too demanding. Besides, in a deck like this, playng a Plague is basically playing a Clasm. It gives you diminant position in the Goblins match up. I realized that Vial Goblins is doing as much as it can to answer Plague, but it's the same as seeing a Port keeping you from White or Green, which keeps you from Crusade and Storm. Plague and Clasm only require one color to play, so trying to avoid being put off-colored isnt as much as an issue people think it is.

Haunting Echoes is AWFUL in Thresh. Notice that Thresh runs zero cards that cannot be played for 4 mana or less (3 with Werebear). This is for a reason. The control matchups you refer to will probably be either Loam decks, Landstill, or Wombat. Vs. the first two, you need to have 5 mana up on your Main Phase, which is an issue in itself when both decks rape your manabase, and then resolve Echoes through disruption (in the case of Landstill). Vs. every one of those decks, Armageddon is a Turn faster, supports your game plan better, affects the present board state, and disrupts your opponent more effectively.

Against a deck like RG(b)SA, Rifter, Wombat, Mirror, Truffle Shuffle, LftL, and many others, what's the difference? The only difference between this and Armageddon is because it doesnt require set-up like Armageddon.

Deed + Nimble Mongoose = Not a combo.

Neither is EE for 1 and Nimble Mongoose. In a deck where it replaces it's own creatures, it's easy for you to assume dominant position in the Midgame creature deck mirror.

As Dark Confidant is the most important part of the black splash (see the Herbig project - discussed here), all the huge guys and flashy win conditions drive up the potential for Bob to screw you. Even with just Force in the deck I get nervous. Some of you are even advocating cutting cantrips with Bob in the deck! The whole point of fitting him into the thresh shell was to utilize the natural knowledge of your top library card to make Bob free draw. Cutting Portent, Visions, or Brainstorm when they all make Bob better is a mistake. You don't really need Predict or Mental note as much anymore, but both are potent with or without Confidant in play.

I advocated cutting Bob. It's the removal I would much rather discuss however.

Duress absolutely is NOT better than Meddling Mage vs. Combo. I'm not going to get into the debate on whether or not he's needed in UGw thresh with you, because that will go on forever, but let's say you have to choose one or the other. Duress is a temporary solution that takes the most pertinent threat out of their hand. This works into your game plan how? What are you planning to do in order to capitalize on that disruption? Play a cantrip and a Mongoose? Meddling Mage is a threat that they must answer to win the game, or slow down to play around. Either way, he buys you at least some time, where Duress may or may not. Note that this applies more to Non-TES combo decks, but is true there, as well, if you play tightly.

No, Counterbalance is. Reasons why we dont run Duress anymore.

Portent vs. Mage - Mage disrupts your opponent starting turn 2. Portent draws you another counterspell that doesn't help vs. Storm. Note that I don't disagree that Portent is good, but I wouldn't choose it over Meddling Mage.

Portent sets-up the game for you, whereas Meddling Mage disrupts their turn 2 blindly. Portent ensures that you set-up for a Daze, FoW, or Swords. Meddling Mage is just a weak body facing up against a Rotting Giant, whereas, Portent would've gave you an answer to that Giant in the first place.

Mage is ineffective vs. one combo deck in Legacy, TES. Any of the others, it's a house, and there is an obvious card to name, meaning Mage is never a Grizly-Therapy. Vs. TES.

You name LED, and EtW will still bite your ass.

About Mage being a house versus every combo MU.... I realize, but do you really need it?

Using Mage against Solidarity is just simply a crutch; you should already be able to beat Solidarity, even without Mage. IGGy Pop is another easy match-up I've beaten without Mage before.

Black is imo currently a very strong color, but this deck is not really making use of its strengths very well. Instead of showcasing the best stuff like Deed, Hymn, Damnation, etc. you have Ghastly Demise. I'm not saying you should replace the demises with Hymn or something. They are there for a clear reason. But perhaps this deck needs to be seriously reworked when you consider what is going in and what is not being used at all.

Again, this discussion is best left to the forums to decide whether those cards are redundant. Pernicous Deed from my testing, as been incredible. EE may be better if you want me to be honest, since it can answer Chalice and the Mox early in the game.

Ghastly Demise is good, but not strong. If there's a White Pyroclasm that costed W1, I think we might switch to White. Luckily Tarmogyof is coming out; this gives this deck an edge against Vial Goblins now, since Werebear was always so weak.

[Brushwagg]

I advocated cutting Bob. It's the removal I would much rather discuss however.

What??? Cut Bob?? May I ask why? It's the best Cantrip ever, and if he stays for more then a turn it creates card advantage and forces your opponent to deal with it or lose.

@Removal:I've found that Ghastly Demise and Diabolic Edict to be the best options. I ran 4x Ghastly Demise and 3x Diabolic Edict. I tested alot of spot removal and these 2 where the best.

@Mass Removal:I've found that it was never really needed. With the card advantage and quality it never really became an issue, since I have a counter for something that was a real problem or a card to solve the problem ie:Needle or Naturalize.

While Black has alot of what seem to be nice things to offer, you really need to selective. It's really no different then the other color splashs.

Here's my list:

4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Forest

4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Werebear
3x Dark Confidant

4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions
4x Mental Note
3x Night's Whisper

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Counterspell

4x Ghastly Demise
3x Diabolic Edict

SB
3x Engineered Plague
3x Naturalize (could be Krosan Grip)
3x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Open Slots

I was testing 2x Krosan Beast. Cutting 1 COunterspell and 1 Diabolic Edict. It was nice as a beater, but lacked evasion and sucked really bad without Threshold. Just throwing that out there.

[Windux]

Future Sight is freaking awesome for Threshold decks.
I think the impact will be huge.

Here is what I would play:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker

4 Predict
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Portent
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Ghastly Demise
2 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Imp's Mischief

4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand


SB:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosive
1 Counterbalance
3 Duress

As you can see it's very similar to Gilmores list. Why? Because it's awesome, if you not mention, that he don't run Confidants.

He is the reason to play the deck!
And if your argument ist, that you can reveal a Tombstalker or Force, I can give you a hankie :P

[kicks_422]

Isn't Tarmagoyf red?

I've said it before and I'll say it again... The only thing that's keeping Black Thresh from rising into upper tiers is the lack of a good removal spell. Ghastly Demise and Diabolic are good, but nowhere near the versatility of Magma Jet/Lightning Bolt nor the power of StP. If Black gets efficient removal along those lines, this would become more popular.

[Anarky87]

Isn't Tarmagoyf red?

Tarmogoyf

Creature - Lhurgoyf(TS) Tarmogoyf's power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and it's toughness is equal to that number plus 1. (The card types are artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and tribal)
#153/180
*/1+*

[kicks_422]

Whoops, my bad.

[Citrus-God]

And if your argument ist, that you can reveal a Tombstalker or Force, I can give you a hankie :P

I've played this deck for awhile. I hardly flip over FoW, so I wouldnt say that's a bad thing since it balances everything out. My problem is getting my board locked up against Fish and the mirror, and all Confidant can do is draw instead of swinging whil my opponent is under exhaust, but still is still maintaining a good stand on the board.

[Happy Gilmore]

Future Sight is freaking awesome for Threshold decks.
I think the impact will be huge.

Here is what I would play:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker

4 Predict
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Portent
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Ghastly Demise
2 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Imp's Mischief

4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand


SB:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosive
1 Counterbalance
3 Duress

As you can see it's very similar to Gilmores list. Why? Because it's awesome, if you not mention, that he don't run Confidants.

He is the reason to play the deck!
And if your argument ist, that you can reveal a Tombstalker or Force, I can give you a hankie :P

You are only running 16 lands in that build. And on second thought (after some testing) you really need Counterbalance to be in the board with Counterspell in the main. The inclusion of Bob is debatable imo, but Pithing Needle is on the other hand is not. You do not have access to the basic forest (or G mana from Bear) and you need an effective way to stop land hate and equipment spells.

[Brushwagg]

The inclusion of Bob is debatable

There shouldn't even be a question. Bob is just too good not to include. I have only died to my own Bob once (Force of Will for to turns). The card advantage he grants this deck, hell any deck, needs to be answered. Not to mention he can block and swing.

@Tarmogoyf:I could easily see this and Werebear together in this deck. It could make up for the lack of playable creatures for the Black splash.

[BreathWeapon]

There shouldn't even be a question. Bob is just too good not to include. I have only died to my own Bob once (Force of Will for to turns). The card advantage he grants this deck, hell any deck, needs to be answered. Not to mention he can block and swing.

@Tarmogoyf:I could easily see this and Werebear together in this deck. It could make up for the lack of playable creatures for the Black splash.

Does the deck need more threats than Werebear and Nimble Mongoose? I figured the deck would use Seton's Scout as a 4/3 that can trade with either other Werebear and Nimble Mongoose or Sea Drake and Serendib Efreet before it ran something else.

Even Krosan Beast isn't a terrible finisher.

[Citrus-God]

He ran Krosan Beast for awhile actually. I'm tinkering with this right now since I'm open with all my personal projects...


// Lands 18
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Island


// Creatures 15
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant


// Spells 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Pithing Needle


// Sideboard 15
4 Engineered Plague
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dark Confidant


Janky as hell. Dark Confidant is easily good now. With Mental Note, draw power, and a higher threat density, this deck pressures just about any deck well in this format. Werebears 5-8 is awesome, and having access to Jittes in the Sideboard is just simply sick. Being able to fight Hanni Fish, Angel Stompy, and Survival decks is just simply savage. I look forward to seeing any variant that is strictly just 3 color UGb Threshold doing well in the future with Tarmogoyf coming out.

[BreathWeapon]

I actually had a really similar list with MD Scout and Jitte awhile ago,

How good is the Lhurgoyf? No Artifacts and no Enchantments means the best he can do is 4/5, I'm sure he can grow faster than the other creatures can reach Threshold, 3/4 is average on turn 2, but just adding Drop of Honey and Engineered Explosives gives him 6/7.

[Solpugid]

Anti~American, I love that list. Dark confidant definitely, in my opinion, needs to stay to make black splash worth while. However, I was also considering using tarmogoyf alongside mishra's bauble and predict. That gives the deck a) card advantage, and b) a way to make tarmogoyf bigger on your own (to 5/6). I've personally never been a huge fan of pithing needle main, as I would rather run extra removal, but that's just me.

[Brushwagg]

@Anti:The list is looking good. But I think you need a secondary card drawer(I don't count BS, MN or SV). Either Night's Whisper or Predict(not a fan of it). That way you still can gain card advantage even if you don't have Bob.

-2 Needle main
+2 Night's Whisper

Also in the board I think you need some form of Artifact and Enchanment removal. I think it's more important then the Counterbalance plan. But it might just be me, I can never get that damn thing to work right.

@Night's Whisper:Here's why I suggest it, it's really simple. It will always draw you 2 cards and doesn't need a set up spell. Yes I know it's a sorcery, but I like the fact that it doesn't need BS or SV to get you the 2 cards.

[Happy Gilmore]

There shouldn't even be a question. Bob is just too good not to include. I have only died to my own Bob once (Force of Will for to turns). The card advantage he grants this deck, hell any deck, needs to be answered. Not to mention he can block and swing.

@Tarmogoyf:I could easily see this and Werebear together in this deck. It could make up for the lack of playable creatures for the Black splash.

The life loss is not the issue, when he gets online he is wonderful but I would not necessarily call him a threat in the conventional sense. Whether you play him or not you are still going to need cantrips and more than likely Predicts as well. Bob does not help you create reach, a very important resource in certain matchups (survival comes to mind). Tombstalker/Mystic Enforcer/ Fledgling Dragon on the other hand can. And Tombstalker has the added advantage of dodging Dystopia while still costing only BB.

[Citrus-God]

The life loss is not the issue, when he gets online he is wonderful but I would not necessarily call him a threat in the conventional sense. Whether you play him or not you are still going to need cantrips and more than likely Predicts as well. Bob does not help you create reach, a very important resource in certain matchups (survival comes to mind). Tombstalker/Mystic Enforcer/ Fledgling Dragon on the other hand can. And Tombstalker has the added advantage of dodging Dystopia while still costing only BB.

That's just sick right there. Dystopia cant kill him, and Tormod's Crypt doesnt make him crap.

[Anarky87]

I've been tinkering with a deck of:

4 Strand
3 Delta (would be the other way if I had another Delta)
4 Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

4 Goose
4 Bear
3 Confidant

4 FoW
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Demise
2 Edict

4 Brainstorm
4 Visions
3 Portent
3 Predict

2 Needle

The sideboard I'm still tossing around. I know I want 3 Plagues, 2 Crypts, 2 Winter Orbs (this smashed control for me this past Saturday when I was playing Witch Maw Thresh), 2-3 Naturalizes, and then some kind of tools for combo. So far the deck has been performing pretty solidly. I was able to beat Red Death one game by throwing down 2 Confidants and riding the 3 cards a turn to a win against his Anurid, Giant, Specter, 3x Hymn board.

I cut Whispers and put the Predicts back in because for me it's never hard to setup Predict when you run 11 other cards that manipulate your deck. And I've never been much of a Whisper's fan outside of T2. I do believe Tarmagoyf or whatever will help the deck out by just being independent of the GY for the most part, leaving only Mongoose as the Threshold dependent creature. I might like to try out 4 Goose, 4 Goyf, and 3 Bob here pretty soon.

[Citrus-God]

Cut 2 Edicts and 1 Counterspell for a 4th Predict and 2 SDTs to incorporate Counterbalance in the board.