[ATW] Landstill

[Solpugid]

I stand in awe of the incredible logic behind your reasoning.

Haha, I guess I should elaborate a tad for those looking into it. Because 4c has such a fragile manabase, adding cycling lands is out of the question. Without those, loam doesn't live up to its full potential. Additionally, dredging is usually a bad idea in a deck that can (at times) have very specific answers. Needing green mana is also a pain.

But finally, crucible allows you to win attrition wars in which your manlands die frequently. I just played a match against a friend who was attacking me with large creatures (calciderm) that I couldn't just block and kill. So instead I just chumped with a factory and replayed it every turn. So really the utility of crucible given a long game (and you'll get to the late game for sure) makes it superior.

The final point I suppose (no really, it's the last one) is that crucible makes you less susceptible to grave hate taking threshold from monastery, but this point is minor.

On another note, I just tested smother in place of diabolic edict and I have been quite happy. It doesn't hit reanimator creatures (SSS or Akroma) or auriok salvagers, but I found pinpoint removal to be needed in aggro matchups.

And is there an artifact/enchantment removal spell with cycling, I hate getting stuck with dead cards.

[Bardo]

Hell, I'll hop in here too. A few months ago I had plenty of Life from the Loams in my collection but 0 Crucibles (this has changed). Seeing an earlier Landstill thread, I was pretty jazzed about LFTL since I didn't have the Crucibles and they seemed like a pain in the ass to acquire.

The shitty thing about LFTL is that it forces two things that are bad: continual mana upkeep and the very real possibility of breaking your or an opposing Standstill. Also, being in your off-color wasn't great in itself, though not a deal-breaker alone. Dredging I saw as a non-issue and helps if you're running Monastery, but is an otherwise negligible side effect. Sort of a bumb there.

So, I ran the LFTLs and they were very mediocre, often forcing me to keep counterspell mana open or regrow a Wasteland, etc. and I didn't like having to choose. A lot of times they would be in my hand, and I'd think "Damn, if only this were a Crucible."

Then I came into possession of a few Crucibles and dropped the LFTL and what a difference it made. Having no other mana commitments to regrowing your shit was priceless, as is doing so under Standstill. And if your Crucible gets countered or KGripp'd, that's why they printed Academy Ruins.

In short, Crucible > LFTL in Landstill.

Edit - Look at the mana requirements alone: regrow 3 Wastelands/Manlands with Crucible = 3 colorless mana; regrow 3 Wastelands/Manlands with LFTL = 3GGG*.

* Assuming you only have 1 of what you need available.

[Anarky87]

I also haven't seen posted yet how LFTL also makes you dump all the cards you need into your graveyard where you can't get them. What good is land recursion if you're dumping Deed, Fact, Swords, Brainstorm, and Edict into your yard where they are uselss?

[Bardo]

I also haven't seen posted yet how LFTL also makes you dump all the cards you need into your graveyard where you can't get them. What good is land recursion if you're dumping Deed, Fact, Swords, Brainstorm, and Edict into your yard where they are uselss?

Because it's only a myth (see "Milling Away Good Cards") that dredge will affect the outcome of the game.

[Anarky87]

Because it's only a myth (see "Milling Away Good Cards") that dredge will affect the outcome of the game.

I guess in one premeditated instance, yeah, it wouldn't affect it. He could have just as easily dredged Deed, Deed, Smother away, got back Moor, cycled and drew a land. GG. I don't see how dredging 30-36 cards a game has no affect on drawing relevant answers instead of throwing them away.

[Eldariel]

I guess in one premeditated instance, yeah, it wouldn't affect it. He could have just as easily dredged Deed, Deed, Smother away, got back Moor, cycled and drew a land. GG. I don't see how dredging 30-36 cards a game has no affect on drawing relevant answers instead of throwing them away.

Look, there's an equal chance for every card in your library being certain specific card, so milling yourself might either bring it closer or mill it away (and bring you closer to more copies). Yes, it happens, but since it's random milling, it doesn't really affect anything.

[Tacosnape]

Great. Apparently everyone likes to bring this discussion back from the dead.

First of all, Life From the Loam is superior in builds of 4C Landstill not packing Wasteland, which is my build. And you don't -need- Wasteland in 4C Landstill. Crucible Wastelock is nuts, granted, and if you're playing a more fragile build where getting the green is an act of god and you need to be able to drop that Crucible for any 3 and fix your manabase, so be it. In builds without Wasteland, though, you won't be hurting for Green.

Because it's only a myth (see "Milling Away Good Cards") that dredge will affect the outcome of the game.

Correct. This is a mistake bad players make. It pays to know your math.

The final point I suppose (no really, it's the last one) is that crucible makes you less susceptible to grave hate taking threshold from monastery, but this point is minor.

Completely Wrong. Dredge can get you Threshold back ten times faster than Crucible can. And if they want to board in graveyard hate against Landstill? Awesome. That's less threats you have to deal with.

The shitty thing about LFTL is that it forces two things that are bad: continual mana upkeep (snip)

Edit - Look at the mana requirements alone: regrow 3 Wastelands/Manlands with Crucible = 3 colorless mana; regrow 3 Wastelands/Manlands with LFTL = 3GGG*.

*Assuming you only have 1 of what you need available.

That's a huge if. With Brainstorm, Standstill, FoF, and the fact that Loam can actually dig for business lands in a pinch, you'll very often only have to cast Life From The Loam once or twice a game to net 4-6 lands. And you have to keep that Crucible on the board. You aren't meant to play Life From The Loam like a Loam deck, where you do it every turn to generate card advantage. It can be boarded out, and if you get it earlier than you want it, send it back with a Brainstorm and a Fetchland. I rarely if ever cast Loam more than two or three times, but it's there if I need it and I don't have to protect it.

And on non-loam related notes...

And is there an artifact/enchantment removal spell with cycling, I hate getting stuck with dead cards.

Run Crime//Punishment. It'll get rid of Artifacts and Enchantments, as well as creatures, and it'll let you steal kill conditions from your opponent.

[Bardo]

First of all, Life From the Loam is superior in builds of 4C Landstill not packing Wasteland, which is my build. And you don't -need- Wasteland in 4C Landstill.

Simply on the grounds that I haven't tested 4c Landstill w/o Wasteland, I'll abstain from a judgement here. Re: Crucible/LFTL, I was talking from personal and plentiful experience with my U/B/g Landstill deck that has been testing superbly and where I did experiment with LFTL for a few weeks (out of necessity), before moving onto Crucible.

[Tacosnape]

Simply on the grounds that I haven't tested 4c Landstill w/o Wasteland, I'll abstain from a judgement here. Re: Crucible/LFTL, I was talking from personal and plentiful experience with my U/B/g Landstill deck that has been testing superbly and where I did experiment with LFTL for a few weeks (out of necessity), before moving onto Crucible.

Strangely enough, In UBG I actually like Crucible better. I think it's mostly because Eternal Witness kind of eliminates any worry I have about having to protect the Crucible.

[ScottCottrell]

The Sole reason LFTL is inferior to Crucible is that it invalidates the Standstill plan. In my extensive testing with BHWC the 1 time mana investment of Crucible is more than i want to spend and you only have to pay that ONCE. LFTL does nothing more than allow land recursion which Crucible does, however the noticeable differance in the two besides the obvious is that LFTL Removes your draw. This deck NEEDS to draw cards, why would you put in a card which makes you have to decide between wasteland locking someone or gaining card advantage, Crucible does BOTH. And if you have cycle lands to negate that draw back you might as well be playing BRG and not landstill.

[Tacosnape]

The Sole reason LFTL is inferior to Crucible is that it invalidates the Standstill plan. In my extensive testing with BHWC the 1 time mana investment of Crucible is more than i want to spend and you only have to pay that ONCE. LFTL does nothing more than allow land recursion which Crucible does, however the noticeable differance in the two besides the obvious is that LFTL Removes your draw. This deck NEEDS to draw cards, why would you put in a card which makes you have to decide between wasteland locking someone or gaining card advantage, Crucible does BOTH. And if you have cycle lands to negate that draw back you might as well be playing BRG and not landstill.

The problem with this forum is that nobody actually reads instead of just writing. Your "extensive" testing means nothing to me, as both online and in real life, I've put close to 1000 hours and played over 1500 games with this deck, and that's about a third of what I've put in with Landstill decks counting other versions. Your points have been addressed several times over and are as stale as the jokes in a Garfield comic strip.

Point 1: Life from the Loam does not, in any way, invalidate Standstill. You simply don't cast Life From The Loam when a Standstill is in play. If this causes you to be unable to be in control of the Standstill and Force your opponent to break it, then you aren't very good at assessing your game position and shouldn't have played the Standstill.

Point 2: Life from the Loam doesn't remove your draw unless you Dredge it. Dredging Life from the Loam is not the intended plan. Very often, as you said about Crucible, you only have to play Life From the Loam once, getting back two to three business lands as a result. The Dredge is auto-recursion, which is something Crucible doesn't have if it gets destroyed or countered. The Dredge is also a means of digging for manlands should you need to do so, but this necessity is highly rare.

Point 3: Even if you are Dredging Life from the Loam, it's not costing you the cards you think it is. That's cards you aren't having to spend countering attempted assaults on your Crucible, or replaying a second Crucible once you Deed your first one away.

Point 4: The Wastelock strategy is flawed. Other than Landstill mirrors, there aren't any decks you can completely shut down with a Wastelock anymore. They all run basic lands. And even if you provide slight disruption, so what? You're missing your own manland drops while you're doing this, so you aren't really providing the clock necessary to back up your disruption. Life from the Loam can do the Wastelock at a ridiculously suboptimal price, but why bother? There isn't a deck in existence that you can Wastelock that you can't similarly beat without the Wastelock except possibly 43 Land, and Wastelock isn't always fast enough to beat 43 Land when they're dropping 2+ lands a turn unless you managed to Force all early Explorations/Manabonds.

Point 5: You DO NOT have to have Cycling Lands to run Life From The Loam in this deck. And it is not being suggested under any circumstances that they be run. Kindly stop attacking Loam advocates on the point of Cycling lands when nobody has even remotely suggested they be run in a deck which I'm quite aware can't support them.

[jamest]

Up to this point, I haven't bothered commenting on Loam because Tacosnape has basically said everything I would've.

Point 5: You DO NOT have to have Cycling Lands to run Life From The Loam in this deck. And it is not being suggested under any circumstances that they be run. Kindly stop attacking Loam advocates on the point of Cycling lands when nobody has even remotely suggested they be run in a deck which I'm quite aware can't support them.

I suggest running cycle lands in my current decklist.

Point 1: Life from the Loam does not, in any way, invalidate Standstill. You simply don't cast Life From The Loam when a Standstill is in play. If this causes you to be unable to be in control of the Standstill and Force your opponent to break it, then you aren't very good at assessing your game position and shouldn't have played the Standstill.

If you run cycle lands, then you don't have to worry about the conflict between Standstill and Loam, because if you have an active Loam, you don't need Standstill anymore. Standstill draws 3 cards. Loam draws lots more.

Tacosnape, what is your current 4c Landstill decklist?

[BreathWeapon]

I'm starting to get to the point where I don't think that Black is worth it in this deck, it forces the deck into a fourth color, and for what? MD Pernicious Deed and SB Engineered Plague and Duress?

Pernicious Deed is a serious design restraint on this deck, Engineered Explosives is similar to it in three colors and it's faster at removing specific targets, and while it isn't as powerful as Pernicious Deed, it doesn't require contortions to the manabase and doesn't remove the Crucible of Worlds, Vedalken Shackles and Chalice of the Void that are such amazing bombs in this deck.

Duress isn't needed, all the deck has to do is replace it with another combo hoser, like Orim's Chant or Chalice of the Void, and the deck is better off with out.

Engineered Plague is awesome, don't get me wrong, but there is bound to be another hose in U/g/w just for Goblins; Hunted Grounds and Chill aren't terrible ideas because they're useful against TES.

[Xero]

I'm starting to get to the point where I don't think that Black is worth it in this deck, it forces the deck into a fourth color, and for what? MD Pernicious Deed and SB Engineered Plague and Duress? Pernicious Deed is a serious design restraint on this deck, Engineered Explosives is similar to it in three colors and it's faster at removing specific targets, and while it isn't as powerful as Pernicious Deed, it doesn't require contortions to the manabase and doesn't remove the Crucible of Worlds, Vedalken Shackles and Chalice of the Void that are such amazing bombs in this deck.

I kind of agree with this. At that point though, is there any reason for Green? The only card you would need it for is Nantuko Monastery. That cards really good, but I don't know if its worth a splash color all by itself. I've been wondering for awhile if the old Uw color combo isn't just the best way to build the deck.

[BreathWeapon]

At this point, I'd rather use U/w/r instead of U/w/g just for 'Clasm, but after using Glittering Wish in this deck, I'd go back to U/w/g for it and Nantuko Monastery after the GP for certain, pulling Dueling Grounds, Mystic Enforcer, Loxodon Hierarch, Harmonic Sliver, Meddling Mage and Voidslime out of the SB is so good.

On another note, Engineered Explosives is amazing with a singleton of that land that recurs artifacts, and it protects Crucible of Worlds to.

[Tao]

Here in Germany people still play the deck U/W.

That gives you a much stronger mana base and free slots for cards like Stifle, Counterbalance/Top or Pulse of the Fields (underrated).

I have never seen the point in splashing B and G for Deed. Sure, Deed is a strong card, but Vengeance and Disk do the same thing a bit worse without adding 2 colors.

[Tacosnape]

Tacosnape, what is your current 4c Landstill decklist?

4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monestary

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Life From The Loam

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Innocent Blood*
1 Crime//Punishment

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
2 Extirpate**

*I can never decide between Diabolic Edict and Innocent Blood in this deck. Blood's cheaper and better against Goblin Lackey, but the instant speed of edict is often nice, as is the fact that it costs 2 and not 1 against Chalice Aggro decks like Faerie Stompy, so that Chalice for 1 doesn't kill half my removal. Right now I'm running 1 Blood for deck diversity and to give me 5 answers to Lackey on the draw instead of 4, which boosts my chances of having one to slightly better than 50%. ...Not that I really expect to beat Goblins game one anyway, but still.
**Might become three instead of the 5th Blast. Also might get cut entirely for a Glittering Wish board. Dunno yet.

The biggest notable exclusions in my build are Wasteland, Crucible, and Disenchant. I've said my piece about Loam against Crucible, and I've said most of what I want to say about Wasteland, other than reiterating that my manabase is incredibly consistent without it. Also, without Wasteland, Crucible loses a lot more punch than does Loam.

Disenchant I just never liked, as most of the time I wanted it I felt like I wanted it for Pithing Needle (Or on occasion Survival.) I rarely ran into mass manabase hosers, and when I did/do, I can usually counter them. I've toyed with running a single Krosan Grip in the maindeck slot where Innocent Blood is.

Crime//Punishment fit the bill perfectly for dealing with multiple Pithing Needle lockdown, though. Not only that, but Crime acts as a fantastic kill condition stealer. It can often singlehandedly let you steal games from Survival and Loam by Criming Genesis, not to mention that you can use it to steal Eternal Witness over and over and over again. It'll also steal an Enforcer (Or a Mage!) against Threshold, steal Aura of Silence against Enchantress, steal Rifts against Rifter, steal Dark Confidants or Jotun Grunts against fish decks, and so forth. I've even stolen a Leyline of the Void in a drawn out game against Iggy Pop. I never want to see it early in the game, and I'm quick to Brainstorm it back into my library, but midgame, I'm almost never sorry to see it come my way. It's subpar Pernicious Deed #5 and a kill condition outside of your manlands.

My sideboard evolves a lot based on the meta. In scrub Metas with chances of Burn and R/G Sligh, or in Goblin-heavy fields, I like the five blasts. I can and do beat Burn decks with Landstill, though game one's rough and that brings the match down to about 50/50. R/G Sligh's much easier, as my creature removal makes more of a difference.

In more combo-based Metas, I sneak down to 3 Blasts and pack a couple of Orim's Chants. A lot of combo decks have trouble going off through the six-way combination of Meddling Mage, Force of Will, Counterspell, Stifle, Orim's Chant, and Extirpate. Extirpate may not be all that against Epic Storm or Solidarity, but it totally savages alternate combo decks like Aluren and Gamekeeper Salvagers.

All in all, I love the build. I crush almost all aggro-control decks with my build, including Deadguy Ale and Red Death, which to my knowledge have good matchups against most 4C Landstill due to the wronky manabase. I do very well against most aggro except Goblins, which I can pull to about 35-65 or maybe even 40-60 after a near-certain game one loss, which is pretty good. I don't have much trouble with Combo that isn't named Solidarity, though Epic Storm can sometimes be fast enough to just plow through me. My only real nightmare match I never want to see is a true Loam deck (With Manlands and Wastelands), as I struggle mightily to win this matchup without Extirpate, and even with Extirpate it's bad.

[Oathmaster]

Hello Everyone,

I use to be a huge fan of this deck and play it for a while. I presently have a UBG version built and I have to say I miss decree of justice, swords and meddling mage. I do like, however, splashing a 3rd color but not a fourth color. I tried 4 color landstill and found the same conclusion that many people have posted, that the manabase is to weak and unstable.

I do believe after testing out UBG that white has to be in the deck. It just does not have the same tempo or smoothness without it. I love deed, but white offers so much more.

Does anyone have a worthy tournament list of a UWR Landstill deck? I know Mr. Nightmare mentioned a couple post ago that this may be the best color combination for the deck and on paper I may have to agree.

[morgan_coke]

I know this isn't being discussed right now by anyone, and it has been talked about before in the past, but is there any reason a U/W build couldn't run Armageddon instead of Wasteland? I think straight U/W, or U/w/g (for glittering Wish/monastery) or U/W/r (for pyroclasm/b. ring) would benefit a lot from the inclusion of one-two Armageddons. U/w/g has the best color stability combinations, and the best manland, and a pretty solid Wish, so maybe it could look something like this:

[deck]decklist i realized was really bad once i finished typing it[/dekc]

ok, i'm not the best landstill deckbuilder, but i think some cards to include in a u/w/g armageddon build could be Moment's Peace and Glittering Wish, with things like Teferi's Moat, Dueling Grounds, Voidslime, SSS, Trygon Predator/Harmonic Sliver, Loxodon Hierarch, Priviliged Position, Mirari's Wake, Temporal Spring, Mystic Snake, Jungle Barrier, Meddling Mage, Shadow of Doubt, and Absorb as Wish targets.

The combination of control cards, crucible, standstill, and armageddon just seems really, really strong to me, with armageddon acting as a strong reset/defense button for the deck and eliminating annoying things such as rishadan ports, while E.E. and academy ruins do a nice job of shutting down stuff like aether vial that would otherwise counteract the landstill strategy.

moment's peace also seems like a great answer to goblins that will buy you the time to hit four mana for a wrath.

[Tacosnape]

Armageddon seems very questionable considering it's an equilibrium-effect card (meaning it does the same thing to both players) that you usually counter if the other guy plays it.

It's dead if you aren't packing a Crucible (Or maybe Loam in UGW) to set up the recovery, and gimmicky sub-combos are as a rule bad unless the cards function well on their own. Wasteland, while I may not like it enough to run in any 4-color builds, is worlds better in a random situation than Armageddon.

Armageddon is also only strong if you have the board locked down, and often you'll be defending with Mishra's Factories in UW until they drop enough threats to make your Wrath a mathematically beneficial play. Or there could be an Aether Vial in play. And if you -do- have the board locked down, you should be able to keep it so.

So basically, what matches/situations are you improving with it?