[Discussion] Legacy Players, Compared to Patrons of Other Formats

[Janos_Wuryon]

Split from discussion in Kadilak's Dual Land Draft III

not that I have much time in playing legacy it is my experience in general that those players who have accomplished very little take every chance possible to snipe those who have been around longer. Every time I see someone with a years play time bust out a netdeck and claim to be better than his local competition i want to puke. Last time I checked there arent too many of us who have pro tour wins under our belts. lets all think about that before you lay into someone like you got the right to

[noobslayer]

If you can account for the fact that a majority of magic players are indeed not good, and there is a clear difference between your skill and theirs, then yes, I think you have some sort of rights to superiority. That doesn't mean however, that it makes you a better person, and as such, those people still deserve for you to be courteous and respectful towards them. Not a complete douche bag.

[Janos_Wuryon]

?? you refering to me?? two voids and 2-1?? actually I got double void and went 1-2 even worse. My point is that a large number of the more recent magic generations have chris murray syndrome.. they are never wrong, there deck build is always vastly better than their opponent, they always know what play should be made and if they lose its always due to a lucky top deck or some other factor that doesnt credit there opponent in any way or discredit themselves. Last time I checked Murray doesnt have a string of PT appearences and wins, well i guess thats cause he feels it would be unfair to ruin all those terrible players like kenji and kai's chances to win by showing up... That must be why all these superstars around here arent raking in 30,00 prize purses.... or maybe not

[Michael Keller]

My point is that a large number of the more recent magic generations have chris murray syndrome...

QFT. Cutthroat tournament Magic is fine, but sometimes people don't have a chance to show their intellectual superiority (enter sarcasm) anywhere else other than cards - so they get off on their three seconds of fame among their community or here on occasion.

[Nightmare]

I'm not going to speak in absolutes here Jason, but most of the players from Syracuse who are into Legacy don't play other formats on a large scale, and many of them have done well in this format's equivalent of pro-tours. Personally, I have no interest in qualifying for PTs, and don't enjoy the formats that would allow me to do so anyway.

[Shriekmaw]

many of them have done well in this format's equivalent of pro-tours.

There has been one tournament so far that I would say is equivalent to a pro tour and that was Grand Prix Philadelphia. The players that only focus on Legacy are good, but they are not on the same level as a lot of Pro Tour players that show up for Grand Prixs.

When you do well at a large scale Legacy event, what does that say when no Pro Players are there?

The true test of great players is doing well at events with great competition and in the Legacy format that just doesn't happen that often.

[Nightmare]

There has been one tournament so far that I would say is equivalent to a pro tour and that was Grand Prix Philadelphia. The players that only focus on Legacy are good, but they are not on the same level as a lot of Pro Tour players that show up for Grand Prixs.

So Lille (which had more players) doesn't count? We also don't play this game for a living.

When you do well at a large scale Legacy event, what does that say when no Pro Players are there?

I dunno Nick, what does it say? You seem to be inferring something, come out and say whatever it is you're dancing around.

The true test of great players is doing well at events with great competition and in the Legacy format that just doesn't happen that often.

I've got to be honest with you here, Nick, the constant berating of the skill of Legacy players is annoying. The fact that someone is playing at GPTs, GPs, and PTQs consistantly doesn't mean they're good, nor does it mean Legacy players aren't good just because they don't go to those events. Let's take Philly as an example, since it's the ONLY one you're willing to look at (even though we've had plenty of other events with over 100 people at them in the past year). How well did the pros do at that event? Some, pretty darn good. Many scrubbed out after their 3 round bye on rating. That's pretty much zero difference between the pros and legacy players who had 3 byes. It's a fact that events like those are weighted toward the pros doing well, because they have 3 less rounds to play, and have undefeated records going into round 4. That's almost an entire tournament they didn't have to play.

Frankly, it's a cop out for you to dismiss this format and it's players based on the events we chose to attend. If you're so certain the format is full of scrubs, why aren't you dominating it with your vastly superior play skill?

[Shriekmaw]

So Lille (which had more players) doesn't count?

I've got to be honest with you here, Nick, the constant berating of the skill of Legacy players is annoying.

If you're so certain the format is full of scrubs, why aren't you dominating it with your vastly superior play skill?

First of all, I'm aware that Lille had probably double the number of players that went to GP: Philly. I brought up that GP, because most of the members on the source actually attended that one over Lille.

If you take the pool of people that just play Legacy over other formats in Syracuse, in general who has more playing skill? You learn a lot more by playing other formats, the most competitive format is type 2 period.

I never said that the format is full of scrubs. I'm just saying there not at a level of pro. That is not a knock on the players, that is just the fact.

Speaking of myself, I know I'm not a pro at this game, but I'm always trying to get better. Maybe I'm just expecting too much from this community.

[Nightmare]

I think you expect too little from it, actually. If you're certain you get better by playing type 2, why bother with Legacy at all? What are you gaining by playing it, if you aren't winning every event you enter, and the players are all bad?

[Shriekmaw]

I think you expect too little from it, actually. If you're certain you get better by playing type 2, why bother with Legacy at all? What are you gaining by playing it, if you aren't winning every event you enter, and the players are all bad?

There is Legacy GP coming up, thats why. The only reason.

[Nightmare]

What difference does that make? I mean, none of us should bother showing up, since we're going to be so outclassed by the pros who attend.

[Shriekmaw]

What difference does that make? I mean, none of us should bother showing up, since we're going to be so outclassed by the pros who attend.

We play the game because we love it. I love playing magicu in general, thats why I go to as many big events I can. I try to support the Syracuse area as much as possible when it comes to playing magic. I don't care what format it is, I'll be there.

I think there is a lot of good players that live here. I was just trying to make a general point. I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way. I would love for someone in Syracuse to go to that Grand Prix and kick some pros asses.

I found for the most part, that most pros are rude which doesn't make it fun to be around or even play the game with.

[AnwarA101]

If you take the pool of people that just play Legacy over other formats in Syracuse, in general who has more playing skill? You learn a lot more by playing other formats, the most competitive format is type 2 period.

I played at a couple of Extended PTQs and I wasn't particularly impressed by those who play Extended and I imagine you would agree that is a competitive format. Ofcourse the better players were at the top tables, but that's true of every format. I'm sure one of the reasons that I didn't do particularly well was that I had never played Extended before and had little testing done. There will be good and bad players in every format, Legacy isn't any different in that way.

[Shriekmaw]

I agree, you get bad players in any format. It does get frustrating after awhile when you know the format and play good decks, and still don't do well. I think knowing the format is one of the keys in doing well, and that goes for every magic format.

I am a big fan of Red Death in Legacy. I think the deck is very strong and a great choice to take to the GP. Kudos on your creation of black/red suicide.

[revenge_inc]

and many of them have done well in this format's equivalent of pro-tours.

I don't want to look like a "Legacy basher" but it's hard not to feel there is a bit of vanity to that statement. There are several times the number of people competing for the Pro Tour than there are in Legacy tournaments. GP Philly wasn't that big. Let's face it, some Extended PTQ's this season were bigger I believe.

If you replaced "PT" with "PTQ", then I would me much more inclined to agree.

There will be good and bad players in every format, Legacy isn't any different in that way.

I agree and I feel we mustn't forget it. (I may even fall into the bad players category)

On an unrelated note, although this tourny is only 3 hours away for me, I won't be able to attend as I am unable to get a ride and I was invited to a B-Day party. I sincerely hope to be able to attend the next. I hope all who attend have a great time.

[Nightmare]

I think you misinterpreted what I meant by "equivalent." Obviously we aren't getting the same # of people, we aren't handing out flights to European and Japanese kids.

[Getsickanddie]

the most competitive format is type 2 period.

Maybe at the highest levels but I'd wager that Kadilak's awesome dual land draft, which by the way is coming up next weekend, will be a lot more competitive than most Type 2 FNMs that are being held across the country.

Maybe I'm just expecting too much from this community.

What exactly do you expect? That's what I don't understand. I think everybody knows the average playskill at pro tour event is going to be a lot higher than an average Legacy event. Who fucking cares? If we wanted to be on the pro tour, we probably wouldn't be playing this format. If Syracuse being a legacy dominated city irritates you I suggest you move, because I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[Janos_Wuryon]

OK a couple points

1. I got the sarcasm, im not totally dense

2. regardless of the format there is a point where all players are at and where they are striving to get too. Until youre firmly atop the heap you should really keep the attitude in check.

3. I heard there will be TV's at Kaddy's event, well any one want to bring Tekken 5 Ill be happy to establish that I am the best at that, its like my religion.

4. In regard to the nick posts about format challenge I think he is only part right. Every format has its own unique set of challenges, no one is more or less difficult than the other its just that the skill set is different. Limited ( my format) requires the ability to evaluate cards on there individual merit and in context of the others available, t2 requires the ability to maximize the effect of weaker cards to get a consistant and maximally powerfull deck, and legacy requires the play skill to play around ultra powerfull cards and very robust archtypes.

Ok thats long enough, any one disagree?

[Belgareth]

A)The Pro's are not amazing at legacy (The reason being they don't bother to put much time into it as it can't win them fame and money).
B) Legacy is completely different from extended and standard in that it has less people playing it and less people designing decks (Even though the format doesn't rotate , it is still largely untouched compared to it's potential pool).
C) There has been 1 euro-GP for legacy and unlike in America where your all used to driving/flying miles for thing, over here a 2 hour drive is considered a long way. Factor in the language barriers and the passport issues for crossing borders and it turns into a big deal.

Most Legacy events are not sanctioned, if they were then there would be a lot more people Qualifying off rating.

So philly was the only event equivalent to a PT ? Now as Adam pointed out , considering wizards were not handing out plane tickets / accomodation to the rest of the world it's hardly a fair comparison.
With the exception of syracuse, one of the largest legacy hotspots is Germany. If there was a GP in say Berlin then this would show you some of the top spots would certainly not be pros.

[Mulletus]

I'd just like to point out that y'all got nuttin' on deez nuts! Cuz I play Legacy and I lost my amature status doin' it, BIOTCHES. So all yous amature slut-nuggets betta STFU, cus I'm gunna win this and rub the prizes in your no magic-money-makin faces! BA-DOW!

sh!t, talkin to me like I went to Philly wit byes and sh!t. I PLAYED 14 ROUNDS again the smelliest bunch of geeky slobs... Pro's or no's, I slapped 'um down like ho's!