[Discussion] Hulk Flash

[urdjur]

This just in from the WotC boards. Apparently, the errata is being reworked which has led to its removal from certain cards, among them Flash. New and updated errata is scheduled for May 1st (next Oracle update), and afaik it will include Flash. Just a heads up not to invest too heavily in this concept since it might go away pretty soon.

[[reptiLe]]

What about:
flash in Protean Hulk, fetch Karmic Guide and Carrion Feeder, Karmic returns hulk, sac hulk to feeder, fetch Saffi Eriksdotter and Crypt Champion, sac Saffi targeting Karmic, Champion returns Saffi, sac Karmic so it returns, Karmic returns Hulk, sac Saffi targeting Hulk, sac Hulk for Thermopod and Scorched Rusalka, Hulk returns, sac Hulk for Karmic Guide n.2 which targets Karmic n.1, in response sac Karmic n.2 to Thermopod, loop Karmic Guide sacrifices to add a bunch of red mana and then burn the opponent with Scorched Rusalka, infinite Rusalka damage! LoL, and it's only 7 slots :P
2 Karmic Guide
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Crypt Champion
1 Thermopod
1 Scorched Rusalka

+ 1 Body Snatcher
In case one of the high cc combo creatures is in your hand you can get this dude to do the trick; doesn't work with Feeder or Rusalka though. At the moment I'm trying 3 Karmic and 2 Feeder for consistency.

It's still instant speed but it dies to a timely stp on Feeder, so probably it isn't worth it, however it's definitely cool/sick to win with a 7 creature combo.

[Windux]

For all who want to play this:

Wait until May 1st.
It seems like it's gonna be Errata'ed again.

I would say, posting here, before this date is senseless.

[Kronicler]

A part of me wants them to fix Flash just because I'm sure there are so many disgusting things that the card can do with its current wording. But most of me wants them to keep it like this because stupid broken combos made out of the most random cards ever that were never ever meant to interact with eachother the way they do are sooooo cool.

Kronicler

[Poron]

flash + sundering titan.

totally broken, come on.

[Zilla]

flash + sundering titan.

totally broken, come on.

Why is it more broken than a combo that immediately wins you the game?

The 8x Shifting Wall + 4x Disciple combo wins the game at instant speed for 2 mana. There are very, very few ways to hate on this combo. First turn Ritual into Engineered Plague and turn 0 Leyline of the Void are some of the few. Meddling Mage set to Disciple or Chalice of the Void set to 2 are other options, but your opponent will be lucky to live long enough to cast them, and you have free countermagic to stop them. Even if any of this hate resolves, it's easily solved with a single Chain of Vapor.

The bottom line is that this combo is a) awesome and b) ridiculously overpowered for this format. If they don't revise Flash's errata on May 1, it will be banned outright. It's fun to discuss this concept here, but it's ultimately fruitless; Flash working as it does right now will turn the format into two kinds of decks: Flash combo and decks that lose to Flash combo.

[Pinder]

It's fun to discuss this concept here, but it's ultimately fruitless; Flash working as it does right now will turn the format into two kinds of decks: Flash combo and decks that lose to Flash combo.

QFT. This thing is like a sort of less fragile, just as fast Gorger combo with protection. I remember the days when Dragon Combo was legal. I don't think this will be around for long.

I sort of hope it is, though, if only because it's hilarious that something like Protean Hulk would end up being a format defining card. It would be great to see them pull a reset and go up to like 20 dollars.

edit: It would also give Matt Cavotta the distinction of illustrating two of the most powerful cards in the format.

[Cire]

well i pretty much figured out that flash will be neutered...if not now but soon, probably as soon as it splits the format or before that...

i also figured out that the deck can still survive...although instead of paying only 1U to win (flash) well need to pay 4R to win (through the breach). so this deck can still survive even after the eventual bannings and errata by putting in some rituals, some ETW for an alternate win- ect

heres a quick list that doesnt use flash

- Protean Breach

4 Gemstone mine
4 City of brass

4 simian spirit guide
4 Protean Hulk
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Shifting Wall
3 Phyrexian Marauders
1 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Lotus Petal
4 Through the breach
4 Summoners Pact
4 Mystical tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
4 Rite of flame
4 Seething song
2 ETW

- obviously this version is much weaker than the flash version (and since its just an idea its 62 cards not 60 which it should be) but its just a quick deck list trying to show that even though flash will be shot and left for dead this deck concept can and i think would still have the potential to survive

[Alfred]

I have scanned through this thread, and I don't understand why nobody is considering the following:

Karmic Guide
Carrion Feeder
Kiki Jiki
Sky Hussar

Flash it in, find Karmic Guide and Carrion Feeder, bring back the Protean Hulk, sac it to feeder, find Kiki, use it to duplicate the guide, bringing back Hulk, saccing it to find Sky Hussar, go infinite. That's way better than all the ornithopters and stuff.

It takes up waaaaay less maindecked cards than the ornithopter version.

[Poron]

yes but at that point you have infinite Sky Hussar copies or an infinite Carrion Feeder.

you haven't still won with that combo

edit: ok i got it. When you create infinite Hussar copies, you untap for a last time Kiki.

tap kiki, copy Karmic Guide, get back Hulk, sacrifice Hulk to Feeder and get an Academy Rector. Then you sacrifice it and get a Goblin Bombardment to which sacrifice all the tokens

thi just requires 6 MD cards instead then 11. 5 slots saved

[Pinder]

One of the strongest parts of the Marauder/Wall combo is that it relies on state based effects to put things in the graveyard, so your opponent will be staring down 20 life's worth of Disciple triggers before either player has a chance to do anything. A well placed StP on Carrion Feeder will kill the entire Kiki-Hussar chain you're talking about. All in all, even though it takes up more slots, it's extremely resilient, and that's why it's better.

[Alfred]

yes but at that point you have infinite Sky Hussar copies or an infinite Carrion Feeder.

you haven't still won with that combo

edit: ok i got it. When you create infinite Hussar copies, you untap for a last time Kiki.

tap kiki, copy Karmic Guide, get back Hulk, sacrifice Hulk to Feeder and get an Academy Rector. Then you sacrifice it and get a Goblin Bombardment to which sacrifice all the tokens

thi just requires 6 MD cards instead then 11. 5 slots saved

You know that the infinite copies of Sky Hussar have haste because of Kiki right?

Also, because you are taking out a billion cards from the maindeck, you can afford to run FoW, Brainstorm to shuffle drawn parts back in, and other free counterspells like Daze. If you go off fast enough, you should be able to win and avoid creature removal.

[Machinus]

I think there's merit to what Godzilla is saying, but I am having a hard time believing that a deck with all these janky cards in it is going to cause The First Banning in Legacy Ever. Surely FoW/Daze/StP/Leyline have something to say about this whole thing?

[Poron]

yes they have haste -____-

so it rquires 4 MD and 7 slots saved...even better

[iOWN]

You know that the infinite copies of Sky Hussar have haste because of Kiki right?

Also, because you are taking out a billion cards from the maindeck, you can afford to run FoW, Brainstorm to shuffle drawn parts back in, and other free counterspells like Daze. If you go off fast enough, you should be able to win and avoid creature removal.

It doesn't win at instant speed, though. That takes away a turn zero win, and adds a lot more possible ways to be disrupted. I think someone on TMD posted a Hulk chain that fetched out the same thing but used something like Teardrop Kami and Hulkshot Cyclops to win at instant speed, although it would probably take up just as many, if not more dead slots. The artifacts can also be played from your hand if needed, and so can Disciples, which frees up what you can do with Protean Hulk and makes them not as dead.

[Cire]

It doesn't win at instant speed, though. That takes away a turn zero win, and adds a lot more possible ways to be disrupted. I think someone on TMD posted a Hulk chain that fetched out the same thing but used something like Teardrop Kami and Hulkshot Cyclops to win at instant speed, although it would probably take up just as many, if not more dead slots. The artifacts can also be played from your hand if needed, and so can Disciples, which frees up what you can do with Protean Hulk and makes them not as dead.

whats a hulkshot cyclops? its not on gatherer...not only that i cant really come up with any cyclops that can be used to make an instant win combo....

[Zilla]

I have scanned through this thread, and I don't understand why nobody is considering the following:

Karmic Guide
Carrion Feeder
Kiki Jiki
Sky Hussar

They have considered it. It was mentioend earlier in the thread. It may take up less maindeck space than the Shifting Wall/Disciple combo, but it opens itself up to StP and Pithing Needle hate, which is not an issue for the other build. It's simply less resilient. And it doesn't win at instant speed.

but I am having a hard time believing that a deck with all these janky cards in it is going to cause The First Banning in Legacy Ever. Surely FoW/Daze/StP/Leyline have something to say about this whole thing?

The deck runs 8 FoWs of its own to protect against FoW and Daze, and if it wanted to it could even bring in Misdirection from the sideboard, which is virtually wide open, since very few things actually hurt the deck. StP doesn't touch it, assuming it's using the Wall/Disciple combo. Leyline is vaguely problematic, except that a) a very small percentage of decks in the format run it, and b) you can simply Mystical for Chain of Vapor and remove it.

[Alfred]

But if you take out 7 otherwise useless cards from the deck and add more protection or search, it would make the deck even more resiliant, would it not?

Winning at instant speed doesn't impress me as much when you have to devote twice as many deck spots as the other option. Winning first turn is possible with both builds, but one can run more protection than the other.

[nightshade81]

A Columbus List

Land - 10
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Tropical Island

Accel - 9
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal

Combo - 18
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Shifting Wall
3 Phyrexian Marauders
4 Flash
3 Protean Hulk

Protection - 8
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
1 Chain of Vapor

Tutors - 16
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Merchant Scroll
4 Worldly Tutor
2 Living Wish

It's definitely not as broken but this I think still has to be fixed before Columbus.

Edit: Changed the list

[URABAHN]

There was a gentleman running this deck at the GPT in Roanoke today and he would've won the whole damn thing if he didn't concede to his friend (he's not going to Ohio). After the tournament, I tested a few hands against him playing Landstill (3 MD Stifle) and nitewolf9 tested a few hands against him playing Red Death.

We kept hands under the assumption that we didn't know what our opponent was playing and that we should probably keep a hand that has an answer to Goblin Lackey. I managed to win about 6 of 8, nitewolf9 managed to win 2 of 8.

Stifle + Force or Counterspell backup seems to do well against Hulk Flash, Duress + Hymn seems to do well when Hulk Flash doesn't Brainstorm in response to hide the combo pieces. I would imagine Gro would have decent game against Hulk Flash since it runs Daze, FoW, and Stifle in the board.

He told us he used to run Serum Visions in the deck and misses it much. If you play a build of Hulk Flash that runs less than 12 combo slots, you may consider running Serum Visions or Portent. If you're running Underground Sea like he was, SB Massacre would useful against Samurai of the Pale Curtain and Meddling Mage. I think I like the idea of running as few non-basics as possible.