[Discussion] Hulk Flash

[Jak]

This card is rediculous. I mean tons of people are complaining goblins is way to broken and wanting bans and now some people don't think this is. I mean do we really want there to be only 2 decks in the format. Ones that are hulk flash and ones designed to beat it. Even if you pack the most hate possible into the hateflash.dec it can win turn 0. This card or hulk better be getting banned or I am switching to standard or some weak shit like that.

This deck is in no way healthy for the format and the only reason people are saying it isn't broken is so they can build it and kick some n00b ass. Think of all the decks this format will lose if this card stays the way it is and think of all the new decks to have. Not much variety.

Edit- Just noticed SCG has flashes going for 5 bucks now. Let the price rise.

[Happy Gilmore]

Emphasis added.

Therein lies the problem. Instead of freaking out about the chain reaction that happens after Flash resolves, why not keep them from resolving Flash in the first place? Problem solved.

Well I am still not convinced that Pact of Negation is all that good in this deck. By using Daze instead you can go off, have them counter, counter back then if they win that battle fetch up another Flash and do it again. The pre-Futuresight versions are going to be able to go off multiple times in one game. Thats something to mention. Worldly tutor and Mystical tutor may seem slow but they also have the added ability of protecting the combo from discard.

Tickbind will be the most efficient hate because it negates their counterspells and if they used Summoners Pact they not only lose both pieces of the combo but also the game durring thier upkeep. The pact version is not strictly better, it may be faster but not nearly as resiliant as pre-future sight. Since you win against agro decks regardless, going off multiple times vs. control might be a better plan. Either that or run Zantid Swarm.

[Tacosnape]

Iunno, but I traded for 12 Leyline of the Voids in case Flash stays as is. I plan to maindeck them in Goblins, Survival, and Hulk Flash. Fuck you, Mirror match.

Also, my Goblins list will now be packing Serum Powder in place of Pyrostatic Pillar so I can powder mull into lightning fast Chalices and Leylines.

[AngryTroll]

I'm trying to email Mr. Forsythe, but it seems that the email function is down....hmm.
Here's the letter I was trying to send. By the way, what combo hate does green have right now? Besides, oh, splashing blue and or black.

Dear Mr. Forsythe,

My name is Don Bruss. I am a sophomore in Nuclear Engineering at Oregon State University, and I’ve been playing Magic since about Ice Age. I’ve dabbled in Type Two and Extended, but my real passion is Legacy. I’ve been playing Legacy since back when it was Type 1.5, and I’ve played UW Control and Landstill variants, RG Stompy, turn three Tendrils Combo (Affectionatly known as “The Janky Storm” after its Type One counterpart, “The Perfect Storm”), Survival of the Fittest in all of its forms, and most recently UGw Threshold and UGw Slivers.
I enjoy playing Combo, Aggro, and Control. However, the current wording of Flash looks like it can turn Legacy into a format worse than the old Mirrodin Type Two, where very deck was either Affinity or built to beat Affinity. The combination of Flash and Protean Hulk is a two card combo, that costs 1U to cast, that wins the game as soon as Protean Hulk goes to the graveyard. Grabbing 4 Disciples of the Vault and five or six or more Shifting Walls and Phyrexian Marauders wins the game on the spot.
Our format enjoys numerous tutors that assemble this two card combo, including Mystical Tutor, Worldly Tutor, and soon Summoner’s Pact; disruption in the form of Force of Will, Misdirection, Boseiju, Who Shelters All, and soon Pact of Negation; and fast mana like Elvish Spirit Guide, Simian Spirit Guide, Gemstone Caverns, and Lotus Petal. Legacy also includes cards like Xantid Swarm and Chain of Vapor, further protecting the two card combo. It is easy to assemble a very fast, very redundant version of the deck.
Fast, redundant combo is nothing new to Legacy. However, Storm decks utilizing Tendrils of Agony and/or Empty the Warrens or Brainfreeze are vulnerable to disruption from all colors. For example, off the top of my head, Black has Duress and Cabal Therapy; Red has Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, and Pyrostatic Pillar; Blue has plenty of countermagic, Stifle, and Trickbind; White has True Believer, Glowrider, and Orim’s Chant; and Green has the shortest end of the stick. All the colors have access to Chalice of the Void, and Sphere of Resistance.
However, the “Hulk Flash” combo is not affected by most forms of disruption. Chalice of the Void is only marginally useful; Stifle and Trickbind are useful, but Trickbind costs two mana; Duress and Therapy need a quick clock to back them up. The biggest threat to the combo is Leyline of the Void. Even this, though, is easily bounced by maindeck removal, and tutors to fetch it.
This deck is probably stronger then the old Worldgorger Dragon decks that roamed the ancient 1.5 and still roams Type 1 tournaments. The combo is cheaper, in the colors that can best support it, and it is extremely resilient to hate. Any deck that wants to even compete with Hulk Flash need to run either Blue or Black to have a chance. This is not indicative of a healthy format.
I live in Oregon, so I do not have a chance to attend very many (read: any) large, sanctioned Legacy Tournaments. I have several friends that are going to fly to the GP next month, and this brings up the last problem. The timing of the errata change is very unfortunate. While Future Sight will not yet be legal, the deck is still a monster. While it may be fair to completely trounce a metagame right before a large tournament, I think it is extremely frustrating to turn a metagame on its head right before one of the few major Legacy GPs.
In conclusion, I urge you to reconsider the changes that have been made in these past few weeks. I do not know what the proper course of action should be, but leaving things as they stand now is not healthy for our format. Right now, there are probably well over two dozen viable decks in Legacy, but with Hulk Flash entering the scene, that list will probably be cut to single digits. To look over some of the viable decks at the moment, you can go to www.mtgthesource.com and look around the Legacy Metagame Forum and the Open Forum. Decks in those categories could easily show up at the GP. I do not know if Flash should be changed back to its previous wording, or if either it or Protean Hulk should be banned, but things cannot be left as they are if the format is to remain healthy.

On an unrelated note, I would like to congratulate Wizards of the Coast on the state of Magic. I loved all three of the sets in Time Spiral block and Ravnica Block, and I am really looking forward to the Legacy GP next term. I do not want to give the impression that I am only concerned about the Hulk Flash combo; I am very pleased with how things have been going lately. Thank you for your time, and I hope that things will be at least addressed in an article this week to let us know that you realize what is happening across the world (really! Europe, the NE, NW, South, and Midwest in the United States, as well as everything in between) in the Legacy Community.

Sincerely,
Don Bruss
Sophomore, Nuclear Engineering
Oregon State University

[Zilla]

This deck has 0 bad matchups from current decks in the format. Let that sink in. Now in 15 minutes this might be a moot point but regardless, step back from your preconceived notions of how combo works and realize this.

This is arguable. You've made a lot of very bold claims here. For this assertion to be credible, you're going to have to post the decklist you've been testing with. I've been doing lots of testing against Flash combo with various decks. In the last two hours, I've played against 3 very distinct versions of the deck. Some do well against certain types of hate (like discard), and some poorly against it. Some do well against against Stifle, some don't. Some do well agasinst Meddling Mage, some don't.

I don't disagree with you that a lot of people don't seem to take the time to consider that the deck can be slowplayed, and that most decks packing enough hate to consistently disrupt the combo don't tend to have the clock necessary to back it up against a smart Flash player, but I think it may be going too far to say that it has no bad matchups whatsoever. Again, for that to be believable, I'd have to see a decklist.

Do you run the Disciple combo, or the Karmic combo? If you run the latter, what extra disruption do you run? Daze? Duress? Xantid Swarm? If you're not running Pacts, what is your search? Mystical? Living? Worldly? Lim-dul's? There are so many options available, and each has its own strengths and weaknesses. What build do you propose has trouble with only to Leylines and not, say Meddling Mage?

Personally, I agree with the assessment that discard is rpetty terrible against this deck. A smart player can protect their hands with Brainstorm and Mystical. While playing a modified Deadguy list, I found that on the draw I had to aggressively mull into Duress or lose the game outright. Even games with double-Hymn were loseable.

I did have a lot of success running straight UW Fish with Vial, Standstill, Daze, FoW, Stifle, Counterspell, Meddling Mage, and Samurai of the Pale Curtain. Serra Avenger and Jotun Grunt provide a quick clock to capitalize on the disruption. Admittedly, the deck is very heavily packed with hate for Flash combo, but it's only 4 cards off from a list I ran before this combo was revealed, and that was running Silver Knights in place of Samurai. Since Goblins (and pretty much all red aggro) is largely obviated by Flash combo, it seems like a reasonable trade.

In short, I think it's possible to have a deck that has a somewhat positive matchup against Flash combo. The number of decks which could boast this are few and far between, however.

[outsideangel]

I did have a lot of success running straight UW Fish with Vial, Standstill, Daze, FoW, Stifle, Counterspell, Meddling Mage, and Samurai of the Pale Curtain. Serra Avenger and Jotun Grunt provide a quick clock to capitalize on the disruption. Admittedly, the deck is very heavily packed with hate for Flash combo, but it's only 4 cards off from a list I ran before this combo was revealed, and that was running Silver Knights in place of Samurai. Since Goblins (and pretty much all red aggro) is largely obviated by Flash combo, it seems like a reasonable trade.

In short, I think it's possible to have a deck that has a somewhat positive matchup against Flash combo. The number of decks which could boast this are few and far between, however.

The problem, though, is that then we're in an Affinity Type 2 metagame, where you either play Hulk Flash or you play a deck designed to beat Hulk Flash.

Additionally, such a deck is not a good choice for at least the GP, because it will get curbstomped by aggro. (We tested it, it's just ugly)

I don't want to play in a format that's Hulk vs. Fish. That sounds like no fun to me.

[Zilla]

Additionally, such a deck is not a good choice for at least the GP, because it will get curbstomped by aggro. (We tested it, it's just ugly)

Depends what kind of aggro you're talking about. My list runs 4 maindecked StP, and Jitte + Tivadar's Crusade in the sideboard can easily deal with Goblins and a lot of other types of other aggro as well. What specifically is curbstomping you?


As to your other point, yes I agree... a Flash vs. Fish metagame would get old real quick. I think it's too early to say with absolute certainty that that's what the format would become, but early indicators seem to suggest as much.

[Tacosnape]

I think it's safe to say a third "Glass Cannon" deck would emerge that crushes Fish and auto-loses to Flash. This might or might not be Goblins depending on how much Goblin Hate Fish gives up to assure victory over Flash. I'm currently testing Goblins against Flash with 4 maindecked Leylines. The matchup's still ridiculously bad, as I can't ever outrace even on the play with Lackey connections and my Leylines keep getting bounced. I did manage to go 2-8 in single games though. This is a far improvement from before. With some tweaking the entire match might become as good as 30-70.

EDIT: If Flash stays, though, Threshold's dead. Flash does well against it and everything fighting flash will maindeck 4 Leylines.

[outsideangel]

Depends what kind of aggro you're talking about. My list runs 4 maindecked StP, and Jitte + Tivadar's Crusade in the sideboard can easily deal with Goblins and a lot of other types of other aggro as well. What specifically is curbstomping you?


As to your other point, yes I agree... a Flash vs. Fish metagame would get old real quick. I think it's too early to say with absolute certainty that that's what the format would become, but early indicators seem to suggest as much.

I can't speak to your deck specifically without seeing your list, but we've had a lot of trouble with both Goblins and Threshold. You really can't 1-for-1 Goblins for long and expect to win, and Threshold's guys are just bigger than yours, except for Grunt which is bomby but has to resolve. Also you practically autolose to Counterbalance + top.

I'd like to see your list though, since it sounds like you've had more success with it.

[Volt]

I'm a bit depressed about things right now. I'm getting the strong suspicion that no errata or ban is going to happen before June 1. If that's the case, this fucking deck is going to wreck the GP. I know some people want to say that the rest of us are overreacting, but I don't think so. I think this deck really is that broken. I am seriously considering cancelling my trip to Columbus, and that just sucks, because I had been looking forward to it for months. For those of you who are gleefully rubbing your hands together in anticipation of playing this deck, enjoy your fucking lame-ass flash vs flash and flash vs fish matches for the next month and a half. I'll see you on June 2.

[Zork]

Depends what kind of aggro you're talking about. My list runs 4 maindecked StP, and Jitte + Tivadar's Crusade in the sideboard can easily deal with Goblins and a lot of other types of other aggro as well. What specifically is curbstomping you?

Even most mono red goblins lists MD artifact hate for jitte, and to run a number of flash hate creatures that is relevant is to give up creatures that made the goblins matchup vaguely winnable for fish. G1 is seriously unfavorable, as 4 StP and 4 Silver knight will not keep goblins from overwhelming you.

The basic problem is this:

Fish creatures good/not terrible against Gobs (Set A)
Serra Avenger
Jotun Grunt
Silver Knight
Mother of Runes

Fish creatures good against Flash (Set B)
Samurai of the Pale Curtain
True Believer
Meddling Mage

In mathematical terms, the intersection of Set A and Set B is the empty set, and we have already shown that Flash can win through a simple set of counter hate. To get the full package we would need creature hate, and that would make our Gob matchup terrible.

The reason Fish could beat Tier 1 of T1 was because those decks all abused power and 0 costers and such. Goblins and Flash abuse none of the same cards, so dedicated hate to either loses to the other.

[Artowis]

I'm a bit depressed about things right now. I'm getting the strong suspicion that no errata or ban is going to happen before June 1. If that's the case, this fucking deck is going to wreck the GP. I know some people want to say that the rest of us are overreacting, but I don't think so. I think this deck really is that broken. I am seriously considering cancelling my trip to Columbus, and that just sucks, because I had been looking forward to it for months. For those of you who are gleefully rubbing your hands together in anticipation of playing this deck, enjoy your fucking lame-ass flash vs flash and flash vs fish matches for the next month and a half. I'll see you on June 2.

It's like everyone went straight from 'what the fuck is this' to 'omg broken' to 'ban' in the course of a week. Whatever happened to actually dealing with a problem in the game?

I mean I know no real blue control decks have been developed for the format in quite a while; but this seems like a fine reason to consider one.

[outsideangel]

Mom is actually not terrible against Flash but only in conjunction with another hate creature. She protects your guy from bounce/targeted removal, requiring the Flash deck to dig up two such spells. The lists running only 1 MD Chain are screwed if you get Mom + Mage down.

Of course, she doesn't stop Massacre...

[Machinus]

It's like everyone went straight from 'what the fuck is this' to 'omg broken' to 'ban' in the course of a week. Whatever happened to actually dealing with a problem in the game?

I mean I know no real blue control decks have been developed for the format in quite a while; but this seems like a fine reason to consider one.

Usually I would agree but I think this is just a little too fast. How could you come to a conclusion other than "ban" right before a GP?

[Zork]

Ok, with all the talk of how broken this deck is, and with the revelation that this deck is likely around until June 1 at least, I want to take Artowis' advice and try to fight the problem as best we can until then.

Since this is a combo, I suggest we take the traditional two methods of hating a combo and analyze them separately, with those two methods being reaction and disruption.

Reaction
- Countermagic seems suboptimal, since it is most likely that Flash is going to win a counterwar since they can Pact of Negation without fear to get flash to stick. Also, countermagic is only a stalling method since Flash can get its combo again fairly easily.

- Stifle is strong, Trickbind is better if you can get to 2 mana, but these are also only stalling methods.

- Children of Korlis is great tech, as popping them mid combo leaves Flash's only wincon hardcasting a Hulk and turning it sideways. The problem is that Flash can bounce him before the combo. Perhaps backing the kids with countermagic? Also noteworthy is that Children of Korlis answers first turn lackey.

- Lifegain. I hate to say it, but gaining more life than Hulk can dish with its combo would straight up win, as disciple beats backed up by a turn X harcasted hulk is not viable. The problem with this is gaining the necessary 13+ life (combo does 32 damage, start with 20 life minus fetches) before hulk goes off.

Disruption

To disrupt a combo, we need to assess what it needs to "go off." Flash needs only to resolve Flash with Hulk in hand and hulk needs to go to the graveyard, so that leaves us with:

- Removing flash from the hand. Suboptimal because flash can be hidden with Brainstorm or grabbed right before going off with Mystical Tutor. The best card for the job, though, seems like a Cabal Therapy with flashback naming both flash and the tutor. This still straight loses to savage topdeck.

- Cutting off blue mana. Not viable since its hard to hate basic islands in conjunction with lotus petals and fetches. Sinkhole is relatively slow to hit the islands, and artifact hate on petal is pointless.

- Other mana denial. This is also hard since flash costs only 2 mana. Typical cards like Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance/ Glowrider only make the deck require 1 more mana.

- Keeping hulk from the yard. This seems like the best way to disrupt the combo, as it makes the deck dig for answers, buying a turn(s) to potentially set up another reaction or disruption. Leyline of the Void, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, and their ilk come in here, but these cards are best used in conjunction with protection (other than a counterpackage).

Any other input? Right now I can't really see a combination of the above that would work consistantly, but I feel like something must exist that isn't totally dead against other decks...

[Aggro_zombies]

Usually I would agree but I think this is just a little too fast. How could you come to a conclusion other than "ban" right before a GP?

Because it would be virtually impossible to unban post-GP if the deck proves not to be the wrecking ball all of the nervous wrecks in this thread seem to think it will be? Being a bit too happy on the trigger finger before the deck's impact can be fully assessed is just stupid. All of the projected meta shifts are just that, projected.

People need to stop comparing this to type 2 Affinity. They are not comparable. Type two is a limited card pool where a strong deck with few available answers came to dominate. There are many answers that are available to this deck, and probably quite a few we are overlooking as well. It's Legacy, the card pool is fucking huge. Someone will find something.

If the format shifts, it will not be any more destructive than Goblins. Right now, decks that can't beat Goblins are simply not playable except in isolated metagames. If this stays legal, then it will shift to "Decks that can't beat Hulk Flash are simply not playable except in isolated metagames." This will replace Goblins as the top predator. Right now, pure control is largely unplayable. Post-Flash, pure aggro will be virtually unplayable. The changes won't be catastrophic. New decks will emerge in that meta and existing decks will morph to accomodate it, or die. Keep in mind that, should this thing stick around, hate pacakges will start evolving in tandem with it. It's not like the deck is suddenly going to become some unstoppable, unbeatable beast.

Seriously, people in this thread need to stop, take a breath, and look at this deck realistically. It is good? Yes. Is it bah-roken? Maybe, if given time and enough innovation. Should it be banhammered into oblivion, right now? Absolutely not. There are answers to this deck and there are decks currently in the format that can handle Hulk Flash without having to bend over backwards to do so.

[Volt]

Is it bah-roken? Maybe,

lol. No maybe about it. It is bah-roken. No ifs, and, or buts, or let's-wait-and-see about it.

How many times do I have to say this: If a deck is likely to go off on turn 1 and can't even be stopped by Force of Will, it's broken.

[Rood]

If you hate this combo as much as I do Please run my decklist to kill this combo quickly. Thank you.

[Zilla]

The reason Fish could beat Tier 1 of T1 was because those decks all abused power and 0 costers and such. Goblins and Flash abuse none of the same cards, so dedicated hate to either loses to the other.

This is true. I agree that creating a deck that beats both Flash and Goblins is essentially impossible. That won't be necessary if Flash stays legal though, because Goblins is totally obviated by it.

[Artowis]

Beating the Pre-FS builds is a matter of actively attacking the hand and combo itself. I find going after the mana to typically be a futile gesture as many of the decks run 7-8 accelerants and the enabler is only two mana anyway. Once you consider the possible speed of the deck, having a turn one play is very important for decks; even if they run Force of Will and mandatory if they don't and hope to not get run over while on the draw.

Duress is one of the most effective tools available, because even if you don't snag a Flash early on you deplete a card; most likely a tutor or FOW, from their hand. Few of the Flash decks run any real way to recoup cards, plus the number of card-disadvantage tutors they run don't help for any sort of long-game. Hymn and co. are crap against the deck compared to a set of Duress.

Stifle and Trickbind are both very valuable weapons, especially against the Post-FS builds, due to their cheap cost and partial secondary uses against Fetches. Obviously the preference would be against a Hulk, but that's risky against a deck with so many counters and probably Xantid Swarm or a similar effect post-board. Sitting on one or two mana for most of the game is a major hassle though, which is why these aren't exactly my favorite weapons to use. Stupid instant speed combo.

Meddling Mage is probably the -best- hate you can run against the deck at the moment. The post-FS builds are even more vulnerable because they typically can't use Pact of Negation on it without incurring major risk and the usual answer is a singleton bounce spell if that. This means by laying one of these guys out, you force the opponent to dance to your own little jig for a while. In addition, the Mage also provides a damage source, something none of the other cards help with.

Leyline and Samurai of the Pale Curtain are in a similar vein to the Mage, but they obviously have far less use in other matches making them mainly sideboard bait. Chalice of the Void is a solid weapon, but that's all it is. Unlike some combo, this isn't the holy grail of anti-combo stuff, you'll lose if you treat it as such. But set at 0 (Post-FS) or 1 (Pre-FS) it's a very effective annoyance. The reason I don't say 2 is because I much rather hit the mana and/or tutors of the deck rather than set it vs. Flash and then watch it get helplessly bounced away a few turns later. Slowing them down is more effective in many cases.

The Post-FS builds are obviously a bit faster than their current counterparts, but they suffer from many of the same difficulties. The key is to drain their hand and future combo resources. Unlike storm combo in this format, they can easily have the resources to try to combo off 2-3 times normally, so you can't ever rest.

The deck is great and I would certainly play it at GP: Columbus.
It will warp the format. (Duh. The format was mostly aggro and slower combo)
Unless somebody is withholding the SUPER SEKRIT TECHED OUT BUILD, which I'm sure people are trying to come up with, the deck still has to care about a few decks in the format and its still only really degenerate post-FS. . Part of the reason it seems so broken at the moment is because so many of the decks in Legacy were/are only designed to interact with board in a significant fashion.

EDIT since apparently I wasn't clear: I don't want this deck to necessarily be around. Pre-FS it's borderline bannable and post-FS it's just straight insane. I'm a little peeved at the 'we're doomed' so I figured I'd share what has actually worked for me.