[Discussion] Hulk Flash

[Hummingbird TG]

Leyline without clock, though, is still worthless as they will take time to dig for bounce which they will side.

Anyway, mulliganing into leyline is so random, it turns tournaments into randomness or stacking!

[DougieFresh]

Im not reasoning why not to run Pacts at the GP. I'm saying you shouldn't run them ever when FS comes in. Obviously its not directly about the GP.

And what playtesting have you done? How many other formats do you play as much as Legacy? If you had a competent player run Flash for you, you'd see Stifle is just as bad as Force or any other countermagic. The mirage tutors have always been used to combat discard. I got turn 1 duressed, so I mystical'd up flash, let him look at my Hulk, untapped and won. I got hymned, so I brainstormd back flash, wordly, and he didn't happen to hit the hulk in my hand, so I untapped and won.

[Nihil Credo]

While digging in my Legacy folder for decks that might have some chances to pull it off vs. Hulk Flash, I noticed a nifty little cards from the deck with the worst combo matchup in the world, Rabid Wombat.

Martyr of Sands.

Comparing the little guy to Children of Korlis:

Cons:
- To consistently gain the required 9+ life (most HF builds can deal 28 life loss), it needs a mono-white deck, with at most a little splash. That means Martyr and Force of Will can't probably coexist.
- It requires two mana overall. Playing Chrome Mox in such a deck could help, and would also make it easier to drop turn 1 Samurai of the Pale Curtain/True Believer/Meddling Mage.

Pros:
- Can be activated before the Hulk Flash player actually goes off. This means it's immune to bounce and other common countermeasures. If you open with Martyr, Mox, gain 9 life, you've almost won the game.
- It's a kick in the balls to aggro decks as well as combo decks.

Thoughts? White also has to offer Leyline-wannabe Samurai of the Pale Curtain, and thankfully Meddling Mage still fuels Martyr of Sands. Aven Mindcensor also shuts off the deck, but at 3 mana it's probably unreliable.

[blackguard90]

I guess my first big post got breezed over. I want to repeat something.

Everyone here who thinks Stifle is good at all is wrong. It's not. In fact any kind of reactive answer at all is bad because you have to be able to pressure them into not having a hand. Anyone who thinks discard is good is wrong. Mirage tutors and brainstorm have always been good vs discard, especially with a TWO CARD COMBO. Now I would repeat this for Chalice, Mage, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Child of Korlis, 3Sphere, everything except Leyline but I don't have the time.

If your not playing pacts of negation, then stifle IS good. With 4 main deck counters in Force of Will, your Force will most likely get countered/forced by your opponent's. As ALL blue based decks packing stifle is packing counter of some sort.

Discard: Yep, sucks against brainstorm, tutor. But if they don't have any of those cards, they get screwed. Also, don't underestimate Hymn to tourach, as its random, as well as hyppie, and to a very less extent Gerrard's Verdict. I have played against this deck Pre-FS and FS and found that Pre-FS is a better match-up. Ok, Meddling mage doesn't suck. Mage can name Flash, then the flash player would only have 1 out in the form of echoing truth/chain of vapor with 4 ways to tutor it. This leaves enough time for the threshplayer to beat down and win.

All the 'answers' either lose to just not doing anything (stifle, all countermagic, discard), are generally irrelevant (Chalice, 3sphere), or can be answered with 0-2 mana (all the proposed creature solutions, even leyline). The only reason leyline stands out is that it might get down before any of the 8 counterspells cant stop it.

Is this deck unbeatable? No, no deck technically is. But it honestly far and away unbeatable by every established archetype (save maybe UW fish, I cant say, haven't tested that vs actual good players). You guys are planning all this stuff just to beat it. Frankly, its a sign its unhealthy and Hulk will get banned come June 1st, but not before the GP. So we will see if people have the stones to run this in face of a million hate cards.

How is countermagic answered? If your advocating no pacts, then countermagic IS a threat. Are you going to sit there and wait for a force and a unimportant blue card while the guy is beating your face? Also, true believer does an excellent job in stopping the combo, only a bounce spell can kill it.

A sidenote: why doesn't flash hulk run something like a Bone Shredder to search out for just in case of True Believer? 3 Disciples are usually enough, as you have 7-8 main deck fodder, and if they arn't in your library, they are in your hand. Also you contradict yourself, as you talk about 8 counterspell while you don't run pact.

Leyline kicks this deck's ass OK? (must get out first turn) The only way they can deal with this, is again bounce... But if your playing black, are you going to let them have bounce? Also, since it would take them indefinate amount of turns to get a leyline while your beating him, how are his chances?

Oh and you don't want to run any Pacts. At all. That's the dumbest thing in the world that I've ever heard. The combo costs 2 mana. It can EASILY be redone 4 times, more if you can get it back. Why the hell would you want to make it into a one shot win or lose attempt when the omst any deck could stop the combo is once but you could just do it again and win anyways. People, combo decks don't go off as fast as possible, they go off as the most opportune moment. So that could be on the eot of turn 10 or on your turn turn 2. The deck already crosses the finish line before any other deck does, so you might take half a turn off the average goldfish in exchange for the ability to reliably and easily go off 4 times in a game.

It's not as easy as you think, so clearly you have not tested throughly. Pacts make the combo consistent, and if your running pacts of negation, you shouldn't run into any problems. Your logic shows that you don't understand the deck very well, as I would definately play pacts to make sure my win chances are higher. I have yet to run into a time where I fizzle and die next turn. Pact of summon is good, but can be cut. While Pact of Negation is just MOTHERFUCKING ridiculous in this deck. I have times where my flash is getting forced, I force, then he forces again and I pact for the win. And yes, you want to go off fast, but since the combo is instant, you can be safe.

[Zork]

And what playtesting have you done? How many other formats do you play as much as Legacy? If you had a competent player run Flash for you, you'd see Stifle is just as bad as Force or any other countermagic. The mirage tutors have always been used to combat discard. I got turn 1 duressed, so I mystical'd up flash, let him look at my Hulk, untapped and won. I got hymned, so I brainstormd back flash, wordly, and he didn't happen to hit the hulk in my hand, so I untapped and won.

Stifle, just like countermagic, is not an insta-win against this deck like it is resolved against TES or Belcher. It will either get countered or just delay the inevitable, but don't make it sound worthless. If a thresh player can stifle a Hulk, that is going to buy him turns in which he will be sculpting his hand better than the flash player and beating face with some dudes.

Stifle is also better than all of the non-free counters (maybe Disrupt is better?) because it will be cheaper than mana leak, rune snag, CS, etc. So if you are already running 4x Force 4x Daze, some Stifle is the next cheapest counter. I prefer Trickbind for SS, but Trickbind wont do crap vs. Turn 1 win the game.

Stifle will help the matchup, not win it. If you have been reading this thread, then you already know that most everyone agrees that this deck tends to even beat hulkhate.dec pretty well, so when people are adding stuff like Stifle to the MD of thresh, they are looking for help, because nothing is going to straight out win the MU.

[Cire]

You know this isn't for other decks; but hulk flash can use comandeer against other hulk flashes. That way they play flash you steal their flash and win. I already replaced daze in my builds with comandeer and on mws against the abudance of hulk flashes its been really good so far.

[Zork]

With Commandeer, have you found it hard to pay the two cards considering your opponent is likely packing counters to protect his flash anyway?

Nice find, though, as this deck's biggest concern is going to probably become winning the mirror.

[tivadar]

Well, though it's reactive, Soul Warden does work, and sets a bit of a clock (though you'll need more than that...). WW aggro has a chance with soul warden and mother followed by an equipped jitte (or True Believer of course..., soul warden is essentially true believer for 1 less mana against this deck).

Essentially I think you have to beat this deck with aggro control. Straightup control won't work, because they'll just wait it out and sculpt the perfect hand. Granted, the control opponent can be doing the same, but not as effectively. "Wait it out" is essentially turn 3-4 at the worst for hulk smash, whereas control will only be able to counter a couple spells by that point (1 hard counter, 1 soft counter).

Now, control that boards in meddling may have a chance... But at which point does a deck become too concentrated at beating another single deck? Yeah, control may fit in the format, but not the control we're used to. Some highly tuned control meant to beat this deck.

[ACME_Myst]

Soul Warden doesn't work, at least not when the Flash player is paying attention. It will only force them to play Flash on your turn, not his. This way, Disciple and Soul Warden triggers will go on the stack in APNAP order, so the Disciple triggers will resolve first, causing you to lose the game before you ever gain life of of Warden.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Im not reasoning why not to run Pacts at the GP. I'm saying you shouldn't run them ever when FS comes in. Obviously its not directly about the GP.

And what playtesting have you done? How many other formats do you play as much as Legacy? If you had a competent player run Flash for you, you'd see Stifle is just as bad as Force or any other countermagic. The mirage tutors have always been used to combat discard. I got turn 1 duressed, so I mystical'd up flash, let him look at my Hulk, untapped and won. I got hymned, so I brainstormd back flash, wordly, and he didn't happen to hit the hulk in my hand, so I untapped and won.

Gee, I guess I apparently haven't done any real playtesting. I mean, my testing showed Stifle was relevant, so clearly my playtest partners were incompetent.

The deck being retarded enough to be able to fight through hate doesn't mean that hate isn't relevant.

[Meeee]

Things like soul warden, true believer, children, and martyr all seem a little situational to me. It's not going to take people long to figure out that the karmic guide, kikki jikki, feeder, hussar(whatever the finisher is) win doesn’t take many spots and can be easily boarded for matchups were P. Needle is not a problem, or just switching in between games can invalidate some hate that the opponent would bring in as well as freeing slots in the maindeck if you need them for other board cards.

[tivadar]

Things like soul warden, true believer, children, and martyr all seem a little situational to me. It's not going to take people long to figure out that the karmic guide, kikki jikki, feeder, hussar(whatever the finisher is) win doesn’t take many spots and can be easily boarded for matchups were P. Needle is not a problem, or just switching in between games can invalidate some hate that the opponent would bring in as well as freeing slots in the maindeck if you need them for other board cards.

Maybe I'm missing something, but how does Kikki help Flash at all? You can never use his ability as no one gets priority before he goes to the graveyard...?

[Nightmare]

Maybe I'm missing something, but how does Kikki help Flash at all? You can never use his ability as no one gets priority before he goes to the graveyard...?

You still use the Hulk. You get Karmic Guide and a sac outlet, reanimate hulk, sac him and get Kiki-jiki. Then you copy Karmic guide, sac Kiki with the ability on the stack, and reanimate him. Repeat ad nauseum for an arbitrarily large number of hastey Karmic Guides.

[tivadar]

Thanks, effective, that's what I was missing. Didn't see the combo straightaway...

So essentially by SBing 8 cards, you can transform from a combo that's immune to lifegain and anti-targetting...

[C.P.]

Thanks, effective, that's what I was missing. Didn't see the combo straightaway...

So essentially by SBing 8 cards, you can transform from a combo that's immune to lifegain and anti-targetting...

But you die to creature removal. I prefer Disciple version so far.

[Meeee]

So essentially by SBing 8 cards, you can transform from a combo that's immune to lifegain and anti-targetting...

Not sure if I'm misreading your post but I was saying simply boarding out the 11 cards of the Disciple combo for 3-6 cards for the kikki jikki combo and anything else needed to dodge random hate, although it does make it more vulnerable to targeted removal.

+1-2 Kikki Jikki
+1-2 Karmic Guide
+1-2 Carrion Feeder

Depends on whether you want to worry about drawing the lone copy and not be able to search for it until you brainstorm or how many sideboard slots you have. I haven't tested this strategy yet but the deck is largely untested in a competitive scene which is probably what it most needs right now.

[pooispoois]

Well, though it's reactive, Soul Warden does work, and sets a bit of a clock (though you'll need more than that...). WW aggro has a chance with soul warden and mother followed by an equipped jitte (or True Believer of course..., soul warden is essentially true believer for 1 less mana against this deck).

It doesn't really work, as the deck can go off at instant speed. At that time, the APNAP rule for triggers will do your dirty work for you.

EDIT: Sarnath'd. I should have refreshed the thread before replying.

[Illissius]

Not sure if I'm misreading your post but I was saying simply boarding out the 11 cards of the Disciple combo for 3-6 cards for the kikki jikki combo and anything else needed to dodge random hate, although it does make it more vulnerable to targeted removal.

+1-2 Kikki Jikki
+1-2 Karmic Guide
+1-2 Carrion Feeder

Depends on whether you want to worry about drawing the lone copy and not be able to search for it until you brainstorm or how many sideboard slots you have. I haven't tested this strategy yet but the deck is largely untested in a competitive scene which is probably what it most needs right now.

If you draw Carrion Feeder, you can just cast it if you're using black. Rather than a second copy of Guide or Kiki, you can use a Body Snatcher or Summoner's Egg -- if you draw Guide or Kiki, just fetch that instead, and sacrifice it to put Guide/Kiki into play.

[Cire]

With Commandeer, have you found it hard to pay the two cards considering your opponent is likely packing counters to protect his flash anyway?

Nice find, though, as this deck's biggest concern is going to probably become winning the mirror.

I play with 2 commandeers, and 1 coiling oracle. That way summoner's pact acts like a blue card too. And no its not that hard to fight their counterspells with your's remember don't be afraid to PON their counters since your winning that turn anyway. My counter suit so far is -

4 pact of negation
3 Force of will
2 Commandeer
2 Daze

I took out 1 force since i don't run lotus petal or mox, chalice for 0 is not a problem at all. All it does is hurt my PON.

[Gekoratel]

The only post that I've seen so far that presented Goldfish numbers was a Post-FS build of Flash I was wondering if anyone that has tested the deck Pre-FS would care to share their numbers. FS is not going to be legal for the GP which I'm testing for therefore I don't really care about those builds.